Episode 142: Diversity and Inclusion: An Insightful discussion with Winitha Bonney OAM, Thought Leader, Author, and Founder of #ColourFULL
In this interview episode, Fiona has a chat with Winitha Bonney OAM, an exceptional Australian thought leader who works to help women of color thrive in leadership roles and in building anti-fragile cultures of inclusion and allyship. Learn more about Winitha's advocacy and work, her book - #ColourFULL: How Women of Colour can become powerful leaders that transform the world, as well as her thoughts on business timing and creating a for-profit business.
Get in touch with My Daily Business Coach
Resources mentioned in this episode
Get in touch with Winitha Bonney
Website: Winitha Bonney
Email: Hello@Winitha.com
LinkedIn: Winitha Bonney
Instagram: @Winitha.Bonney
Her Book: #ColourFULL: How Women of Colour can become powerful leaders that transform the world
Episode transcript:
Welcome to episode 142 of the My Daily Business Coach podcast. We are doing a small business interview episode. This is where I interview creative, curious, and amazing people who happen to also run a small business about how they got started, what has influenced them, what do they offer, and even practical things like what tech tools could they not run the business without.
This episode is an absolutely beautiful conversation with somebody I admire and someone who has left an imprint and continues to have an impact on the way that I run my business as well. It was my absolute honor to ask her on to the podcast, and I'm glad she said yes. Before we get stuck into that, I want to pay my respects to the traditional owners and custodians on the land on which I'm fortunate enough to be able to record this podcast and live the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation. I pay my respects to their elders, past, present, emerging, and acknowledge that sovereignty has never been seated.
I also wanted to highlight for anyone who's reading who is in the thick of it in terms of having either an eCommerce store or a physical store. I know that we are now into the final quarter of 2021. For many of you, this is a scary and challenging time. Even if your business is doing well, you're like, “I have no time because of the volume of work. I've got to get through the volume of orders. What we have to get through is ginormous.” For other people, you may be worrying because you know that 50%, if not more sometimes, of your revenue for the year is going to come from these months.
I wanted to remind you that there are two courses available, they're short courses, they're super affordable, on systems and processes to make sure that yours are working as well as they can for you and that they're set up and they're not in your head. Especially if you're hiring staff to help you at this time, everyone is singing from the same song sheet. The other is the Money Mapping Course. That is looking at where your revenue stream is coming from. Maybe to increase your orders online, you add in things like add ons or bundles or free shipping over X so that you can get that little bit extra every time somebody comes in.
I know it has been an incredibly challenging time for small business owners, regardless of whether you’re a product, a service, or both. Especially for physical-based businesses, stores, gift shops, bookstores, all sorts of physical retail, you've been hit hard especially here in Melbourne. My heart goes out to you. If you are facing financial struggles, please get in touch with us because we do offer discounts and discretionary services.
Onto this small business interview. You can tell that I'm smiling because this woman is incredible. I have got to know her a little bit more and I'm excited to get to know her further. I had to ask her to be on this podcast and I'm glad that she said yes. Her name is Winitha Bonney. She is Australia's first and foremost thought leader in the advancement of people of color and in building anti-fragile cultures of inclusion and allyship.
In 2021, she was awarded an Order of Australia Medal for her extensive work in diversity and inclusion. She has more than 22 years of experience in executive roles. She has founded companies. She has been the CEO of companies other people have founded. She has run several businesses. She is a wealth of knowledge, expertise, and wisdom. She’s the type of person that you cannot help but think deeper about life and everything that life involves whenever you get the opportunity to speak with her.
Winitha is on my Sunday email list and that's how we connected. After George Floyd's murder in the US, I sent out an email that was discussing business and Black Lives Matter. That is from my white privileged perspective. I had numerous people will respond. Winitha responded and I took in what she was saying. She continued to respond after anything else that I put out around NAIDOC Week or around other things where I was showing my learning and unlearning.
What I appreciated was that she opened the doors to our dialogue, our conversation. I had done some cultural insights training. I read the books. I’ve done an anti-racism course. I've done an anti-fragility course out of the US and worked with an indigenous cultural insights trainer here in Australia. I kept getting all these questions from small business owners of all sorts of denominations, backgrounds, skin tones, and ages about how do we go about changing things?
How do we go about talking about what's happened to us if we are a person of color? How do we sort through so much stuff that still needs to be sorted through? I found in Winitha somebody that I could talk to openly, someone that I could invest in to, and to have these conversations, to ask the questions that I don't know the answers to. I booked in to do a session with Winitha and it's something that I'm going to keep booking in to do.
I strongly advise that if you're in a similar boat, if you are in a small business and you are looking at things differently, you're looking at things through a different lens, perhaps you had been. We have blind spots and we have the privilege. If you are looking for somebody who is going to be able to be that expert leader that can lead you, then Winitha is your person, 100%. If you're a person of color, particularly a woman of color or somebody who identifies as a woman of color, she is 100% your person. Her purpose is to empower women of color to be the best leaders that they can be.
She has put out a book, which is called #ColourFULL: How Women of Colour can become powerful leaders that transform the world. Winitha runs a membership group for women of color. She is an advocate. She had people come to her house, young people, all sorts of people going through all sorts of stages in their career and their leadership journey. She has mentored them, coach them, guided them, and been a complete example as well. In this conversation, we talk about what led Winitha to go into what she's doing, where that came from, was it her parents. We talk about her journey from Sri Lanka to the UK to Australia. We talk about what is the purpose of everything that she's doing and also why she has chosen to create a for-profit business rather than a non for profit or charity.
There's so much goodness in there, particularly if you are a woman of color but also if you are an ally and if you're wanting to change the way that your business operates to ensure that it is promoting equality for all. It's not just something you chuck on social media every so often but you're not doing the work behind the scenes. The book is available at Winitha.com/books. As we go through this, Winitha also talks about why she decided to write a book. She's been in this business for over two decades. Why now? Why was it important? How did she write the book? What was the process like? It's extraordinary and it’s a testament to how incredible she is that she managed to write it quickly.
She also talks about timing and the timing has to be right and that you can't force things to happen even if you want them to happen in a certain timeframe. There's so much gold and nuggets of wisdom. I can't express it enough. I have been impacted by my brief conversations with Winitha. I know how much powerful change her work is creating in the world is fueling inspiration and encouragement. The true leadership that she is showing is completely remarkable.
Thank you, Winitha, for coming on to this podcast. If you have not heard of Winitha, if you want to check out more, make sure you check out Winitha.com. To find her book, you can go to Winitha.com/books. You can connect with Winitha on Instagram and perhaps reach out and tell her what you found most interesting and what resonated with you from this interview. You can find her on Instagram @Winitha.Bonney. Here is my interview with the incredible, inspiring, and wise woman, Winitha Bonney, a small business owner and author of #ColourFULL: How Women of Colour can become powerful leaders that transform the world
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Welcome to the podcast, Winitha. How are you feeling about life?
I am feeling okay. It is a rainy and cloudy day here in Melbourne, Australia. I’m grateful to be tucked in and keeping warm with my little puppy, Bubbles.
I'm also in Melbourne. I wanted to ask as I do with everyone who comes on, how has COVID-19 and the pandemic impacted your life and your business?
To be honest, I feel like it hasn't impacted my business too much because I was already working from home. I did have a co-working space but I'm lazy to travel. One of the things I used to dislike was traveling all the time for meetings. I felt like I was traveling all the time. I could have used that time to do work. For example, even with a client, I would push myself to fly in and fly out in one day rather than stay overnight, which is what my body wanted. I would waste that time traveling.
COVID gave me a lot of my time back to focus on other things such as watching Jamie Oliver on YouTube and other things to procrastinate. In terms of my business, it's given me permission to be like, “If I want to work entirely online, I can. I need to communicate that to clients and give them different pricing in terms of face-to-face and virtual.”
I'm in a similar boat. I was always working from home. I was the same. If I had to even drive into the city, I'd be like, “I can't be doing anything.” It's good to not have that at the moment. Speaking about your business, can you tell us a bit about what you offer and what people can expect if they go on over to Winitha.com? What do you offer? What is your business?
My practice is divided into two. I work with organizations, small, medium, and large, to help them build a culture of inclusion. I will work with founders, CEOs, exec teams, and boards on how to do exactly that. The way that I do that is through facilitation, training, and advising boards and executive teams on how to navigate difficult situations and how to even do this work particularly if they're doing it for the first time or perhaps to address a specific problem.
The other part of my practice, which is the part that is more heart-centered, is I help women and people of color advance in leadership and entrepreneurship. It's about giving them the tools to navigate and manage white systems and structures so that they get the opportunity to thrive and not just survive and that they’re creating meaning and wealth in a way that is meaningful to them. That's my practice. I do a lot of speaking as well at events and conferences. I coach and mentor women and people of color and also executive teams as well. In those two areas, it’s simply building a culture of inclusion and helping women and people of color advance in leadership and entrepreneurship.
I love how you say it nonchalantly. You're like, “That's what I do.” I'm guessing part of that comes from the fact that you've been doing this for so long. You have even received an Order of Australia Medal, which is massive. Congratulations. How did that feel?
It was weird because, in my late twenties, I have this thing where I write a goal on a post-it note. We're evolving as humans. If I feel like I don't want to do it, I'll take it and chuck it in the bin. For years, I had this post-it note that said, “OAM/AM.” I didn't care which one. One of them would be nice. Being a person of color, we're all about credentials and qualifications. I thought, “It would be nice to get this thing, OAM, as colonial as it is.” I remember there was this one year that I was sick of seeing it. I was like, “How does this happen? How do you get one? I have no freaking idea.” I chucked it in the bin and I was like, “Screw you, OAM.”
People nominate you anonymously and there's an entire process. When we got the award, we got a booklet on the process. It was twenty pages long. I was like, “Holy crap.” All I know is that three people nominated me. I knew two of them are because you have to put in references and those references contacted me. It’s like, “Cat’s out of the bag.” The third one, I don't know. First of all, the Government House here in Melbourne is spectacular. It's funny because I do a lot of work with people of color. There's this part of me that loves anything to do with fashion in the 1800s.
They have these magnificent paintings and I was more captured by that than I was by the ceremony on these exquisite women in this amazing clothing. It feels like you're in a mini version of Buckingham Palace. The Governor-General was present with everyone that she gave awards to, which I appreciated. Because of COVID, my mom can't attach the medal to me. My mom put the medal on me, which I felt was more meaningful because my mother didn't have anywhere near the opportunities that I had. She was getting to see me experienced that. For me, that was the most amazing thing.
My mom asked for the 100th time, “What do you do?” I said, “Blah, blah, strategy.” Bless her socks, she was like, “What strategy?” She laughed nervously. I said, “It's like what you and dad do in your business.” She was like, “Okay.” If she didn't create that foundation, I wouldn't be where I am today. I got to share that with her, which was the most important thing. The middle is sitting in a box, much to my mother's disgust.
For me, it was more than recognition because I've been doing a lot of work in the community with disadvantaged groups of individuals. I've had many young people come and stay at my house and giving them pancakes and wipe their tears. That's the purpose of the award ceremony. Regardless of its AM, AO, OAM, it’s to acknowledge the extensive amount of work that you've done in the community. I now put those letters after my name and be like, “I did that.”
You should. It's such an incredible honor. I would be like your mom. I'm assuming when you said she's mortified that it's in a box, she wants it loud and proud and displayed.
She wants the whole thing framed. She wants every photo because they had a photographer there. Unfortunately, I threw the details in the bin. She wants every single photo possible. I'm considering that because it’s in a box in my house. I'm giving it to her so she gets to celebrate it.
What a beautiful moment for your mom and for you. It's a perk of COVID that happened because it's maybe more meaningful even from your mother. What initially drew you to dedicate your whole career and your whole life to serving others? Secondary to that, how did you make it into a business? Did it organically evolve? I know lots of people reading have causes or things in life that they would like to have more meaning around but they don't know how they can have this impactful life but also financially be supported and run a business as well.
For me, I was born with a high level of awareness. I was hyper-aware. I was hyper-aware of life and death. The earliest memory of that was probably when I was about 6 or 7, understanding and feeling the fragility of life. My parents were traditional. They worked one blue-collar job. They never talked about social justice. For whatever reason, I added it in my blood.
A lot of it had to do with growing up in school. I lived in a white community. I was the only person of color in my kindergarten school. When I went to primary school, the first thing kids do is tease you because of the color of your skin. I had to survive in the playground. I had to fight back. I still remember the exact moment I was linking arms with my best friend and I looked down at our arms and realized the color of my skin.
For me, I always had that social justice. I had a lot of empathy ingrained in my DNA. From who or what reason, I don't know. I'm a spiritual person so I believe it is my higher power, God, or whatever it is that you want to call it. My background is in business and entrepreneurship. I fell in love with business when I was fifteen while everyone else was falling in love with the Hanson brothers. I loved everything there was about business.
Somewhere along the lines, the two threads merged. I've started several businesses in the past whilst working a corporate job. My last corporate job is I was the CEO of someone else's company. That was a huge learning curve. I was like, “Never again.” For the first time in my life, I took a sabbatical. I gave myself space because my entire career was working stressful jobs and running a company on the side. I also have a background as a dancer, dance training, and stuff like that.
I remember the first Monday after I finished up in that role, I was like, “What do people do with their life? They go to the beach. Let's go to the beach.” At that moment, a seed dropped into my head, like, “Where are all the other women of color execs? Where are all the other women of color CEOs? Where are all the other women of color leaders? Where are they? It seriously can’t just be me.” That started the ball rolling.
I went to a twisty and windy path as most people do to try and get clarity. At first, I started another company called Amina of Zaria. I then started doing diversity and inclusion work and then I quickly realized that the two are intertwined. I was thinking of starting a non for profit and I was like, “There's nothing more boring than the Women of Color Association of Australia.” That sounds boring. There is such an incredible journey in being commercial as opposed to purely non for profit. I'm interested in for-profit and for-purpose businesses. Let's give this a shot with a thing called Amina of Zaria.
I realized that Winitha.com and Amina of Zaria, the lines are being blurred. This is where working with a coach comes in handy. The coach I had at the time said to me, “What the hell are you doing?” I remember she just went for it. Normally as coaches, we facilitate, we have dialogue and a monologue. She took me out from the corner and was like, “You need to stand in front of this and do this thing.” I dismantled Amina of Zaria. I brought everything under my own brand, Winitha.com. There's still some work there to be done. For me, my bread and butter is diversity, inclusion, and corporates.
Matt Church calls it commercialization and going on a crusade. There is this balance between being commercial and being on a crusade. We do need to meet our clients where they're at and deliver products and services in a way that helps them go into the journey rather than trying to preach my crusade. For me, the way to do that and the mechanism to do that was through thought leadership where I am generating the intellectual property. I'm communicating, teaching, and taking people through that but letting them do the work, which is different from being a consultant which is someone that goes ahead and does the work.
What I realized in that long-winded story is that what people needed was a woman of color to show people and tell people what to do as opposed to a woman of color that was doing the work. That was going to be more powerful and more commercial than working for a company or being hired by a company. That meant that I had to stand out completely on my own and lead the work and the conversation.
Being a service-based business, we still have that approach which is taking what you do and putting it into neat packages so people understand what exactly it is that they're buying. For example, I come on board as a speaker, there's a fee and a structure around that. I run inclusion education programs. There's a structure for that. I have 4 or 5 different packages on a shelf and people can go shopping and pick it so it's easy for them to connect with what exactly do I do, how do I do that, and therefore how I can help them. If I'm not easy to buy, then I'm not helping the customer.
What I realized is to take what I do and put it into neat packages so people can see a selection of things that they can purchase from and that makes me easy to buy. It's doing this work but taking what I did in my other businesses which is what's the commercial approach to this? It was the same. In business, we talk about positioning. How am I positioning myself as an expert in this space? What are the things that I need to be doing is to position myself as a go-to person of which to do this work? What is my positioning statement?
Everything that I did in other businesses, everything that you would normally do in a traditional product-based business is what I took on and implemented into this work to make myself easy to buy. If I'm not easy to buy, then I cannot achieve the social impact. That was a learning curve. For me, it's a different business. I don't have any inventory, which is great but also sad because I miss sending things in the post.
You have your book that we're about to talk about. That’s something you can send in the post. Thank you for that explanation as well. It’ll be helpful for many people reading and helpful for myself as well. I would love to know because this does come up. I've had to go through it myself as well. How hard or not was it for you when you worked with that coach and they said, “Come out from Amina of Zaria. Stand behind Winitha?”
Was it hard for you to be like, “This is me?” You're not the CEO of a company or a brand name. I know that when I moved from head of marketing at a major retailer and before that I'd worked at other global retailers, it's easy for me to go, “I'm from here. I'm from there.” It was hard to stand out and be like, “I'm Fiona Killackey. This is me.” Was it hard or not for you to use your name as your business name and also to stand as, “This is me and I'm not behind a big company name,” if that makes sense?
On one side, it was seductive. I'm fortunate to own Winitha.com. On the other side, what life had shown me was that every time I was visible, I would get attacked, hurt, traumatized, and experience unpleasant circumstances as a woman of color. That was more difficult for me to get my head around. I was scared of people trolling me. I was scared of people saying nasty things. It can get unsafe on the internet. That was probably my biggest concern.
There's a quote and I forgot who it’s by, it said, “If not me, then who?” I felt it in my bones. That conversation with my coach made me emotional. I knew that my emotion was a response to what she said and that it was true. What women of color needed was they needed someone to stand up and out and to show that they can be a leader and also run a commercially successful business and practice. That was the most important thing.
If I didn't do that, if I did under the Women of Color Association of Australia, Women of Color Australia, or whatever, my idea before was Amina of Zaria, then I wouldn't have allowed that. Importantly, I wouldn't have practiced what I preach, which is we need to get from behind the table and there's a process around that.
There's a paradox and truth around, “We need to do that and we need people to make space for us to be able to get to the front and be visible.” At the same time, a lot of us have challenges around being visible because we've tried it in the past. We've got our wrists slapped. We've been punished by HR and stuff like that. That was difficult for me and it still is. I have to be careful also when I say it because my mother follows me on everything.
Life is fragile. If I don't give this a solid shot, what the hell am I on Earth for? What the hell am I doing? Making that switch was scary crazy. To be honest, it's still is. I am a bit of an adrenaline junkie. There's a quote that I live by, which is, “Courage is not the absence of fear but rather that something is more important than the fear itself.” For me, it was about the next generation.
I remember going to Kohl's and thinking, “I'm not too sure about this move. I'm not positive about it.” In front of me were two young black girls with braids in their hair smiling and beaming at me like I was somebody. I got emotional from that because I'm like, “That's who I'm doing it for. I'm doing it for this next generation. If not me, then who?” It's got nothing to do with me. To think it's got everything to do with me is quite self-obsessed and self-centered. It's about them. I have to get in front of my brand. If it all falls into a complete mess, I can always go and live back home with my parents.
Thank you for talking through that because there are so many things that you've said that are on the money. What you're doing is huge and next level. Even as simple as people putting their face on their Instagram account, you might inspire one other person to do that who's never thought of that. For those girls to be looking up and being like, “This is where I could be. This is possible.” It’s incredible. Also, it’s that R. Kelly song, “If I can see it, then I can do it. If I believe it, there’s nothing to it.” We watch a lot of Space Jam in my house. It's amazing.
You are this expert in inclusivity, diversity, and inclusion. The whole DEI has become such a hot topic. It should always have been there. I've been running this business for over six years and I saw a lot more clients asking me questions about inclusivity and diversity. I want to refer people like you. You would know what they're talking about.
Did you see a lot of change in your business? You've been doing this for so long after the murder of George Floyd, which happened in May 2020. More people are talking about Black Lives Matter and all of that. Also, this huge thing that we have here with our First Nations people as well. We all need to get much more on board with, understanding, relearning, and unlearning. Did you see a surge? Do you think that surge is leading to real change?
I didn't see a real surge in my practice. It’s probably been only the last month. I work a lot with corporates. It's taken a while for them to get their heads around it. I didn't see a lot of organizations and businesses here in Australia engage heavily in the work. They do the training but what comes after the training? For me, whenever I do training, I give homework. “This is how you integrate this learning into your business. This is how you do this. This is how you start to develop agency and autonomy to get you thinking about this and doing this work when I leave and go because I'm not here forever.”
It's taken a while for a lot of Australian-based businesses to get their head around this work. In the States, they work a lot faster in general. They are a lot more bolder and courageous around having forthright conversations. For me, it was fatiguing because this is what I have been talking about and preaching about for years. To be honest, I was pissed off that it took someone to die for organizations to be aware. At the same time, I don't have control over people's journeys. Unfortunately, things like this happen and it does open people's eyes.
I sense that clients and participants were a lot more sensitive towards me, not from a place of compassion but a place of fear. Before, people would take content. It’s usually white and straight men that will arc up. Particularly after 2020, they feel like all eyes are on them and they're the problem. I've never said that. I've always said that it's not that white people are the problem, racist people are the problem.
I'm careful about how I do my training. I noticed that after 2020, people want to have a boxing match. There's always one person called Frank or Dave who wants to complain to HR because of a term that I use. Seeing me on a screen in the training is confrontational to them. I'm not even talking about race. I'm talking about the foundations of inclusion and diversity. At that moment, they feel like they're the bad person even though I have so much love, compassion, and kindness in my approach.
I felt like CEOs and execs were a lot more sensitive as well, “Don't say this. Don't say that.” I’m tieing my hands behind my back, which is evidence of a problem, to begin with. To be honest, I have not seen a lot of organizations and businesses in Australia take a stand. People do town halls or do events and stuff like that. In terms of integrating inclusion into their business, they’re not doing that even with inclusive leadership.
One of the things I wanted to talk about is money from social impact and money in business. Now we're seeing a shift in the business where people don't want to do business with the brand. They want to do business with the people behind the brand. They’re moving from branding and being this visual representation of X, Y, Zed to buying a product or service because of the founder. It’s like Elon Musk and what he represents and stuff like that.
For me, it was appalling to see a lot of leaders here in Australia. I don't want to poo-poo all over Australia. Not wanting to do this work or to even call it for what it is, putting under diversity inclusion or putting it under allyship or putting in under cultural diversity, doesn't achieve anything. We have to look at specific problems and address them rather than trying to solve everything under the banner of DEI. That said, there's a lot of opportunity for growth and there's a lot of opportunity for learning.
After 2020, It made certain individuals think. It was the individuals that already had that empathy and compassion towards the plight of people who are left out, who do experience discrimination. As opposed to the people like Frank and Dave who need to be doing the work, who need to be into the room in the room. All I can say is the responsibility of inclusion and diversity even though this is how I pay the bills cannot be the responsibility of me or a handful of people charging that work. Our work is on that bottom line of business and activism. It has to be the responsibility of everyone.
The world is constantly changing, evolving, and growing. Change does scare people even entrepreneurs who like to “disrupt the market”. The other big change was I have been using the term women of color and people of color for years. All of a sudden, I saw it featured in articles. I saw people using that terminology here in Australia. Before, I had faced a lot of pushback from individuals and businesses. That was another big change.
People are even using the word white. If I would say that, the entire room would go quiet. Now people are using languages in terms of black, white, people of color, women of color, BIPOC, which is Black Indigenous People Of Color. Before, I had been using that language and it was foreign even to people in government. People in the government, state, and federal would be like, “What does that mean?” The next question would be, “Why are we using American terms?” That was another change.
There’s so much in that. Much of it has to come from white people having conversations with white people. Frank as well. Things that people say behind closed doors has to be picked up. We have to all have that courage to do things and stand up and not post something on social media. You referenced your parents your mom and you said that they worked in some other realm to what you're doing. I always am fascinated to find out what influenced people. You mentioned going to school and having this real social justice gene. What was your upbringing like? Did your parents run small businesses? It takes a lot for anyone to start a small business let alone with the social justice element as well.
My parents migrated from Sri Lanka to England. Both my parents are Tamils. A civil war broke out, even in their own country, they were oppressed. They moved to England and my dad only had £50 and I was born. We grew up poor. We lived in a room in someone's house for many years. My parents, like any other immigrant, hustled their way through life and worked whatever jobs they could. When I was born, my mom tells me that she would look after me during the day and my dad would look after me during the night. They would alternate to look after me and pursue their goals.
I always grew up with a strong art gene as well. I had these dreams of being an artist and stuff like that. I got introduced to business when I was only ten. It's called VET in schools. We had two options, we could do astute in sports or in business. I was like, “I'm not doing sports. I'm doing business.” When I did that, it was like a language I instantly understood. I was a struggling student and I barely passed everything because I told myself the story that I was dumb and stupid. I loved it so much.
I did work experience in a fabric store. I remember cornering the two founders on a Thursday evening when everyone had left the shop and being like, “Can I have access to your financial statements for the last five years?” I remember the horrified look on their face and I was like, “Give me the password. You can change it back later.” I wanted to analyze their business. I wanted to look at their numbers. I was like a business spy because I was documenting everything that was about that business.
During that time, my dad lost his job. He found it difficult to get a job. He had no choice but to start his own business, which was exciting for me because then I started bossing my parents around and telling them what to do. I was 15, 16. We all had to pitch in. It was selling one unit at a time and getting in an old Toyota Tarago van with Vegemite sandwiches going from shop to shop and trying to sell ice machines. It was a good old-fashioned way.
My parents own a refrigeration and air conditioning company. It is a successful business. They did it with little to no marketing. That was the only marketing that they have ever done. They were honest and hard-working people. I remember one day my dad came home and someone had paid him in a box of fish. My mom was yelling at him, “We have three teenage kids to feed.” My dad was like, “It's good fish.” My mom was like, “We need cash. We can buy ten of those boxes for the cash.”
My dad, in particular, was a super generous, honest, and decent guy and people saw that. He’s like me, he has a lot of empathy towards those who are struggling. If he could give them something a little bit cheaper, he would. People caught on to that. They have a great business. I don't work in that business, I did for a while. I don't because we clashed like there’s no tomorrow. I helped automate a couple of things to make their life a little bit easier. The interesting thing is my dad's dad was a merchant. He used to go to India and sell a lot of spices and stuff like that. In return, he’d come home with gold, silver, silk, and stuff like that.
The business gene is in us. I was always the odd one out of my family. I remember watching a lot of documentaries on the Civil Rights Movement and documentaries about the journey of a trans person. I’m watching things that normal teenagers wouldn't watch and being curious about the human story. Even today, I've done a lot of things that the rest of my siblings have. I'm the odd one out for a good reason.
I'm proud of my parents and what they've done. There are a lot of role models out there. The thing my parents passed down to me was hustling, being super resourceful, going out, and getting what you want in life. If they didn't do that, then I would not be where I am. We have completely different belief systems. As much as I clash with them, I’m grateful. They worked a lot and they still do. I go to their home and both of them would be working in the office, on the computer, and doing work. Financially, they’re fine. They could retire if they want to. They're still working and that makes me feel guilty sometimes. I’m like, “I should be working instead of watching movies.”
They sound amazing. What incredible role models for you to have in your life to see that work ethic. Also, whatever life throws at us, we will be able to deal with. We will be able to keep going and figure it out. Have you seen that Matangi documentary?
Yes. I love it.
It’s such a good one. Speaking of amazing things, I want to talk about your book, which is incredible. You have launched your book, #ColourFULL. I'm looking at my copy that I'm starting to read. It's incredible. This is deep and thought-provoking. It was amazing. Firstly, I'd love to say congratulations. It's incredible for anyone to put out a book. This is going to massively change people's lives. Why this book? Why did you write it? Why now? You've been in this space for a long time. Who did you write it for?
I've been meaning to write this book for a while. Books help with positioning. In terms of my primary sources of revenue and where it pretty much comes from, I didn't see that as the commercial thing to do. I actively support women of color through different initiatives, events, and stuff like that. I put that book on the back burner. Before Black Lives Matter, I felt this big desire to be creative. I was fumbling with like, “What does that look like? How does that look like?”
All of a sudden, I had this deep burning desire to write this book. As you all know, writing a book can be a painful process. For me, it was timing. When I tried to write in the past, it felt like a hard slog. I gave myself permission to put it on the back burner. In May 2020, I felt this fire in my belly of like, “You need to write this book.” I allocated time in July. I canceled everything in a three-week period in July. I set aside that time to write the book.
For me, doing this work was much like a spiritual calling of this burning desire within me, “You've got to write this book.” I know that, to be sure. When I wrote the book, the words flowed out of me. It was effortless, easy, everything came together, and I did it. I wrote 105,000 words. There's a lot of things that I didn't even put in the book that could be expanded on, strategies, tools, tips, and things like that. I committed to writing the book.
I then sat on it for about six months because I got caught up in everything else in life. I was like, “Holy crap, the book. I remember that.” I committed to doing the work to put it out there into the world. In full faith, if I was guided to write this book, the book would be needed and that the book would do okay. There would be more than one person, meaning my mother, that would read the book.
It's amazing. It goes into so much. As soon as I started reading it, I was sending the cover to people and saying, “You have to buy this book.” It's deep. It goes through all different parts of life, work, career, your own spirituality, emotional resilience, and so much amazing stuff. There are so many parts to it. You have all these quotes throughout it that people can use on social media or other places. One says, “We must lead from our scars and not from our wounds for the safety of those we influence.” I'm wondering if you could talk to that in case there's somebody out there who needs to read this.
That's something that I saw not just with women of color but through my corporate work with diversity and inclusion from people that experienced discrimination. Even through Black Lives Matter when people would share and organizations held town halls and they’d get black people that weren't there to share. To me, that felt irresponsible. First of all, they're paying what we call an emotional tax. That is not what this work looks like.
You’re asking them to pay an additional emotional tax by having to speak at an event to all their employees. They're getting retraumatized as a result. They're already going through so much during this difficult time. Also, you have lived to experience it and you're an expert in what it is that you go through as an individual. Because you experienced that, it doesn't mean that you are now an expert in all matters relating to diversity inclusion.
What I realized in that journey and also my own journey of hitting rock bottom and going through a lot of trauma and going through the process of healing and now being a thought leader and a leader guiding CEOs and organizations in what to do, it has to come from a place of scars and not wounds. If I have not done that healing work within myself, then I might cause hurt or harm because I'm speaking from their open wounds. I'm speaking from my hurt. I'm speaking from my trauma. I'm guiding and I'm leading from my pain. That is what causes what we call psychological unsafety, no safety.
We all have a responsibility. We all have moments of exclusion. We all have moments of trauma in our lives. To be effective leaders, we need to be doing the work to heal to effectively lead others. You know this through individuals. For example, you’ll know this is the time a leader walks through a room. If they are going through a difficult time and they haven't done healing work, they're going to lead in a way that's going to be disruptive, alienate people, and exclude others. That's going to cause a lot of hurt and harm. As opposed to a leader who has done that journey, there's this sense of calm and groundedness in them that then changes the environment in a room.
That was something that I also observed working with women of color in general. I would ask some of them to speak at my events, I realized quickly that I am ultimately responsible for who I bring into the room. There would be individuals that will speak from their wounds and you could physically see people clutch their chest and thinking, “Oh my God.” They've been retraumatized or traumatized at that moment.
There are others that are able to tell a story around trauma but do so in a way that is informative, that is action-orientated, that gives a lot of information to people because they have done that healing work in themselves. It's a little line that's taken from teaching. When we teach, we teach from our scars and not our wounds. In terms of leadership, it is no different. If I taught from my wounds, I would be barking at the world. That retraumatizes me. It creates a level of unsafety for other people. If we're creating uncertainty for individuals, they're not going to do the work. They're not going to follow my lead and example. They're going to run in the opposite direction.
I did not post anything about R U OKAY? Day. For me, every day is an R U OKAY? Day. I ask myself that question every day. I am glued on to people as to if they are okay. If there is someone driving in the car next to me and they are bawling their eyes out, when we get to a red traffic light, I'm going to wind down the window and gently tap on their window. I’ll ask them to wind it down and ask them, “Are you okay? Is there something that I could do to help and support you?”
For example, if you have a lot of money issues and a lot of stories around money, if you haven't done the healing around that, when you do sales conversations and when you interact with potential clients, you are going to do so with the energy of scarcity rather than abundance. People are going to smell the desperation all over you. We're not leading at that moment. How is that serving the client?
It's all about us and our fear of like, “Will they work with us? Will I get the money? I need the money.” As opposed to, “Take it or buy it. There are plenty more clients where that came from.” That's another example of leading from scars rather than wounds. Business in itself is like being in a bloody toxic relationship. There are a lot of highs and lows. This will take you to a dark place quickly if you haven't done real work on it. Danielle Leslie says, “Self-work makes a business work.” I could not agree more. That requires self-leadership.
Thank you for that. It’s brilliant. Thank you because every person reading has their own wounds that they may or may not have worked on. It's important what you've said. Years ago, I had a boss, a manager, and she told me, “Always enter a meeting with the same energy that you want to have when you leave it.” I use that now at the start of every group coaching.
Even a small meeting, if you're a manager, you can be like, “I'm busy. I'm rushed. This is annoying.” You come in with that energy and people can feel it and sense it. You leave the meeting in the same vein and you're like, “What happened? They’re annoying.” You’re blaming everybody else for your stuff. Thank you for explaining that. I thought it was poignant.
I've had the incredible pleasure of working with you and I hope I will continue to do that and come to you as a coach. I have to say, as a white woman with many privileges that I'm aware of and many I'm sure that I'm not, I appreciate being able to talk with you about things that perhaps I've not known how to navigate and to get someone with real expertise in that area.
One comment you made, which stuck with me in the first conversation that we had and I wondered if you could talk to this is for anyone who is white who is reading and wondering how to go about making real change. You said, “It, like quality and everything else, cannot be an option.” I wrote it down and I kept coming back to it. For days and days, I was thinking about that one sentence that you said. I would love it if you could talk about that for anyone who's reading.
I do a lot of work around inclusive leadership because there are different layers of inclusion. I work with recruitment teams, leaders, and the entire organization. The one thing that I noticed is that regardless of where you sit, everyone puts inclusion at the bottom of the to-do list and then something happens and it comes to bite them in the ass eventually.
The market is educated. What we're seeing is a shift from a brand being a brand and people seeking out the individuals behind the brand. Also, purchasing products and services base on the individuals and what they stand for as opposed to the actual business on what it preaches. Consumers are savvy and they are wanting to make more purchases where individuals take a stand.
There are some businesses that say, “We're in the business of doing business. We're not in the business of solving the world and its problems.” That is no longer an option anymore. The way the consumer market is going, they don't want to purchase products because business is a business and knows how to make a great product. If that product is unethically made, if there are sustainability and inclusion issues, then they will bring that up in a public way that will damage your brand. That will damage consumer trust and confidence. They will do that swiftly. They have all the power to do that on a mass scale.
I always say to businesses, founders, and leaders that inclusion is not an option. The moment that you start seeing it as an option, it’s the moment that it goes to the end of the to-do pile. What happens is that we react to inclusion rather than respond to it. When we react, that's when we come at it from a place of empathy rather than compassion. Empathy stays in pain and suffering. Empathy is biased in itself because we only have empathy towards things that are familiar to us or things that are in close proximity to us. We don't feel empathy for the things that are not, generally speaking. With compassion, you take a step away and ask yourself as a founder or leader, “What can I do to help?”
When we respond, we respond with compassion. If inclusion is an option, then what happens is we are reacting and we only react to the things that grab our attention and therefore our empathy and that is what people also describe as biases. I always say to individuals, “If you're serious about doing this work, inclusion cannot be an option. Inclusion is not part of your business. It's how you do business.” If you view that from that lens and you have this underlying mantra of, “It is not an option,” we don't have to do inclusion but we get to do inclusion and you reframe it like that. The doors of opportunity and possibility open up.
We've also seen this with some bigger brands as well. With some of the brands that have looked at inclusion, for example, clothing companies have now made clothing alterations and provided clothing for people that have experience living with a disability. That has opened up an entirely new market. For example, when we look at people that are living with a disability, that market valuation, that market globally is valued at about $1 trillion. It's not just the right thing to do but as individuals, we are not supporting and serving an entire demographic. As a result of that, unlocking top-line revenue as well.
With larger organizations, I talk about future-proofing the business. You will get left behind. People are having these conversations. I do a lot of volunteer work. I had a young person call me saying to me that she's about to have a meeting. She's in her early twenties. She's like, “How do I have a conversation about unconscious bias?” This is something that she already knew before she called me and have contact with me. Young people know this stuff. A large percentage are now identifying themselves as non-binary, being identified as either female or masculine energy. That's something that we need to pay a lot of attention to. It's not just about future-proofing the business, it's about doing the right thing. Importantly, what legacy do we want to leave?
Ben and Jerry's is one of my favorite examples of a successful business that has taken a real big stand for social impact. As business owners, we know that when dollars come through the door, as founders, if our wealth also increases, there is an opportunity there to do something with that. Once we crossed a $75,000 income threshold, money will only improve our happiness, peace, and joy only marginally. What is the purpose of money? The purpose of money is to alleviate pain and suffering in the world. We can do that when we have a great income.
There is an interconnected relationship between inclusion and diversity in unlocking revenue, opportunities for increased revenue, also building wealth to then feedback into social impact work and things like that. I always say to individuals and businesses that inclusion is not an option. If that sounds too difficult because you are a rebellious individual, then the mantra for you perhaps is, “We get to be inclusive. How might that look like?” If our business was a business where inclusion was the cornerstone of everything that we did, how might that look like?
We have one short freaking life. It’s like a leaf blowing in the wind. What legacy do we want to leave? It's something that everyone has to take responsibility and a business is a good vehicle of which to create social change. Consumers are looking for businesses that are taking a stand whether it's inclusion or sustainability, ideally both.
Thank you for that. I feel like every conversation with you makes me want to be better and get out there into the rain today and do something good. Thank you for going through that. It's going to help many people. You are incredibly hardworking and determined. You have helped countless amounts of people in corporate and start their own businesses. You have women of color membership as well. Who helps you? You mentioned the coach before. Have you done any courses? Have there ever been any books or mantras? You love words, it's obvious in your book, quotes, and things. What's helped you build? Who's been there for you? Who's been your Winitha?
Before I started doing this work, I would say hardly anyone. I'd spend the majority of my life helping people besides my parents. My mom and my dad, who are traditional parents, they're not going to sit here and have a conversation about how you feel. We're going to have a conversation about what you did today. Because I was an odd person, probably my whole family were like, “Who is this child? What is she doing again?”
For the majority of my life, I felt lonely because here I was leading work for disadvantaged communities, people of color, diversity, and inclusion. When you're leading that work, it can be lonely and isolating. It's only been the last several years that I've actively started to work hard. As hard as I work with business, I work hard and try to form connections and relationships with individuals. Also, with other business founders and entrepreneurs that have the same drive, hustle, and level of ambition as I do. I do work quickly. I have an anything-is-possible personality and not all founders have that. Some people are into what we now call a slow business. I'm all about fast business.
I've had to learn to form a lot of relationships with them. As a coach myself, I have a coach that I work with on and off who has been supportive who is a woman of color herself. She holds the space well, the right level of accountability, and also coaching skills as well. For me, it's forming friendships with other people that are doing similar things that I'm doing, wanting to make a change in the world and wanting to do that through a thought leadership practice model.
It's not just about social impact, it's about how can we grow our revenue to then use that revenue to create more change in the world through initiatives and programs we feel like we want to fund or that we want to start ourselves? For me, also joining a community. For me, the main thing has been getting out there and trying to form those relationships with other people. It’s doing life and business with other people who also do life and business the way that you do.
I've been following someone on social media and YouTube. I can see by their PO box address that they live close to me. I noticed that they started putting an acknowledgment of country at the end of the video. I thought, “How great is that?” I'll be reaching out to them because I can see, even that simple, our values align as well. It’s joining communities.
Fiona, I know you run a lot of group-based programs as well. For me, the three cornerstones are support through a coach, mentor, community as well, and having a place that you can have a structure. If you do a group-based program or you work with a coach, they will give you that structure and that level of accountability too.
I have heaps of mentors that I plugged into whenever I need to. For me, the other thing has been other DEI practitioners, people that I can have a bit of a whine about the Franks and Daves and be like, “This is what's going on. I feel like I want to give up.” Have that honest and vulnerable conversation over a dark chocolate sorbet and be like, “This sucks.” They're like, “Yeah, it sucks.” Be supported in that. I've had to put my hand out a lot and realize that I need to be supported. Most of the time it means paying for that support, too.
That's such a great answer. It's interesting because I've worked with psychologists. My brother is a professor in psychology. My sister is a GP. In the medical space, you need supervisors and you need a group to go to to vent everything that comes up in your practice. Yet, in many other businesses, we don't have that. It's not taught to us that this is going to be full-on and you're going to need some people to go to every often when things aren't rainbows and unicorns.
Like you, I've paid for lots of group coaching programs and business coaches and work to cultivate that community around me. It's important. Well done for doing it because it can take guts to put yourself out there and contacting people. You talk about how to do that in your book as well, how to get in touch with other women of color. On a practical note, are there any tech tools that you can't live without? Have you had to up your game with tech tools because of COVID and the pandemic? What do you go to every day in your business?
I'm simple. I cannot live without Spotify, the Google suite. I know you wrote a newsletter about that as well. The Google suite of products works fine. When I migrated everything to Google, my life feels so much better. The calendar is something that I use a lot and Gmail in general. Jamboard is something else in Google suite, which I use when I'm co-designing with clients. I try not to use too many things because I can get lost in technology. The other tool that I use is WhatsApp because it helps me be more efficient with my time and I can send voice notes to people and things like that. Zoom has been a huge lifesaver. I use Zoom a lot. I pay $1,000 a year for the package that I have. I can have 200, 300 people on it.
You need to get them to be your sponsor, Winitha.
That is a neat idea. I'm going to hit them up. Calendly is another tool that I love. It’s founded by a Nigerian guy. The new one that I'm using at the moment is Insight Timer.
Is it that meditation?
Yes. You can meet people from all around the world and you do group-based meditation and group-based yoga. The thing that I love is anytime that you go into the app, there are always live classes and you can donate to them. They also have a teachers of color section there as well, which I appreciate.
Thank you for sharing that. I know about Insight Timer. A couple of my clients have meditations on it. I haven’t used it myself. Thank you for sharing. I’ll get on that. It's great that they've got teachers of color as well. Thank you for all your time. As we finish up, what are you most proud of from your journey in business?
Fiona, this is something I'm still working on. Like a lot of people, I am not good at celebrating, pausing. I have a reminder also in my diary to celebrate and I keep deleting it. What am I most proud of? At the moment, it’s probably the book. Even though I still have a lot to share, at that moment, I put everything that I had out on the table.
I don't talk a lot about my personal story and my personal life experiences. I have my own reasons for that. When I look back at my life and my journey, the thing that I am most proud of is that I kept going and kept trying. When I look at my journals and my diaries over all the years and all the stuff that I've gone through, I've gone through a lot of trauma, is that I kept telling myself, “Try one more time. Keep going.”
I've had several businesses and they haven't been all rainbows and unicorns. It's been hard. I've had to close businesses. During COVID, I had to shut down my not-for-profit. I've had to make hard decisions and have a lot of uncomfortable conversations. For me, the thing that I'm most proud of is that I've always said to myself in the loneliness of moments when I haven't had any support, “You can keep going. One more time.” Like in the gym, one more rep.
I know that as long as my brain is intact, as long as it is healthy and working in the best way that I can look after it, then I could lose everything in the world but I know that I will always recreate myself. I will always recreate opportunities. I will always start another business. I will always do something. When you think about it, a second business is like a seed to a plant. Where the hell did a big, giant, juicy eggplant come from a tiny, little, micro seed? Where the hell did that eggplant come from? A tiny seed. It's the same thing with business and life. All I know is that as long as I keep having ideas, I can keep moving forward. Ultimately, the thing that is the most important is my mental health and well-being.
This is helpful for many people. Thank you for being honest, transparent, and real. Know that it allows many other people to feel like they can be that way as well. What's next for you? If people are reading this and they're saying, “I need to get in touch with her,” which I'm sure most people will, where can they connect with you? Where can they buy your book? If they want to work with you, in any capacity, whether they're reading from a corporate or they're a woman of color that wants to be in your membership, where do they find out all that good information?
You're more than welcome to email me directly at Hello@Winitha.com. You can find out more information on Winitha.com. My Instagram is @Winitha.Bonney. LinkedIn is also another place that I hang out a lot. You can type in Winitha Bonney and you'll see my beautiful big brown face pop up. What's next for me is I'll be focusing more on women of color in leadership.
At the moment, I'm working on a business program for women and people of color, specifically around wealth generation and creation as a means of creating freedom for oneself and being free from systemic barriers, challenges, and things like that. I’m diving back to my entrepreneurial roots. I’m amping up my leadership programs for women and people of color and continuing to do the corporate work that I do.
I'm working with some large brands at the moment, specifically around the creative advertising media startup and tech sectors. There are lots of opportunities there to create a trickle-down effect into product design and development, media, how it influences people, and stuff like that. That said, Fiona, it could all change tomorrow.
You're incredible. Your whole life's work is amazing. You're somebody who serves in the truest sense of the word. You're there to help other people. It's been an absolute honor to have you on the podcast and to work with you. I can't wait to get stuck into the rest of your book and send it to some people that would find it useful as I do. Everyone would. Thank you so much for coming onto the podcast.
No worries. You can get the book on Winitha.com/books. You can also get the eBook. If you're outside of Australia, you can get it on Amazon, Booktopia, Book Depository, all of that type of stuff. If you have purchased the book or you want to read it and you do purchase it, then I'd love to hear, like from Fiona, what resonated with you. The book is applicable for anyone who's experienced marginalization and anyone who wants to know about the world of what it's like to be a woman of color. There's nothing in there that's around shaming and blaming, good or bad, right or wrong. It's our experiences and here are the things that we need to go to the next level.
It's amazing. You should feel proud. You said you have reminders but have you celebrated the book? Have you done something?
Thank you for reminding me. I have a conference called #ColourFULL as well. I'm thinking of amalgamating everything, including my birthday. I’ll try to celebrate that either. That will either be the 16th of October 2021. Knowing me, everything else will become a priority. It will probably be the end of 2021. It would either be the 16th of October 2021 or the end of the year where we will celebrate everything.
There'll be a whole lot of party planners and big business. People will be like, “I'm celebrating this.” Thank you. It's been a delight to chat with you. Thank you for your time.
Thank you for having me.
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What a magnificent person. I'm sure like you, I'm taking it all in so many insights, tips, and ideas across all sorts of things including the diversity and inclusion aspects but also entrepreneurism and being a woman and standing in your own power. Thank you so much, Winitha. I would love to know what stood out most for you. I know it’s probably hard to choose. What stood out for you from that interview?
Please don't be a stranger. Come on over to @MyDailyBusinessCoach on Instagram and let me know. I'm sure that Winitha would love to hear from you as well. Her Instagram is @Winitha.Bonney. Don't be a stranger. Come on over and let me and Winitha know what stood out for you. Many things stood out for me. I will be listening back to this and taking lots of notes.
There are two that come to mind, the idea when she talked about commercialization and looking at what you're offering and putting it in a way that people can buy from you. In many businesses, particularly service-based businesses, we find it hard to put a monetary value on what we're offering even though it is incredibly valuable. Often, in service-based businesses, we go almost to the lesser end. It’s like, “I'll charge this,” or, “I'll negotiate,” or, “I'll work to whatever budget they have.” Instead of saying, “This is where I see it. This is where I can help you. It's valuable. Here's what you're going to have to pay for it.”
Regardless of what business that you have, putting a financial value on something is important, and standing behind that and saying, “This is what I am. This is what I can offer. This is how much it's going to cost you.” That is important. Especially more so even for businesses where the service is things like diversity and inclusion or things that are sometimes put to the bottom of the list and they shouldn’t be at the top of the list.
I love that she talked about how she wanted to make a for-profit business. The more that a business can make, the more that it can then make real change and invest in other things. She mentioned the rule that came out, a study that did say that if you're you're earning over $75,000 a year, it's only a slight incremental in your happiness in terms of what that money can do. Why not take that money and invest it into solving things for other people to help bring up the next generation, to help them see what's possible?
The second thing that stood out to me is when Winitha talked about maybe having a bit of self-doubt or thinking, “Should I do this?” Seeing those two girls and then being able to see what's possible and seeing themselves reflected in her work and everything that she's built. We often fail to remember that. Regardless of what business we're building, we sometimes make it all about ourselves and less about the audience, and less about who we are serving.
I’m often having conversations with clients where maybe they don't want to put their face on camera, maybe they don't want to do X, Y, Zed, or they're reluctant to. Usually, when we break it down, quite often it can come out of a sense of thinking too much about ourselves and not thinking enough about who we serve. I'm going to be honest, starting this podcast, I sat on it for a while because I didn't know if my voice was going to sound a certain way or if people would judge me, self-doubt, and all those types of things that come up like everybody else. I had to push through and think, “If one person reads this podcast and gets something out of it, awesome.” I love that she brought that up.
We've got to remember as small business owners that we can make such a massive impact. Often, we've got to think about that impact and those people whose lives will change because of what we're offering versus worrying about ourselves in all sorts of ways. There were many other incredible insights. I am going to be listening back to this and taking notes and sharing it with a bunch of people.
Winitha is incredible at what she does. She’s incredible at creating spaces for people to have an honest and open dialogue. She has a wealth of expertise behind her as well. She has a book called #ColourFULL: How Women of Colour can become powerful leaders that transform the world. You can buy that for yourself over at Winitha.com/books. You can find out how you can work with Winitha, how you can learn more about her whether it's speaking, her programs, her #ColourFULL Conference, and lots of resources and musings over at Winitha.com. That's it for me. I'll see you next time.
Thanks for listening to the My Daily Business Coach podcast. If you want to get in touch you can do that at mydailybusinesscoach.com or hit me up on Instagram at @mydailybusinesscoach.
