Episode 170: Embracing Sensitivity and Who You Really Are with Brooke Nielsen from Intuitive Warrior
Look at the analytics but also look at your gut. How are you feeling? In this episode, Fiona talks to Brooke Neilsen, the Founder of Intuitive Warrior, about being highly sensitive. They also discuss how our body has so much intelligence to tell us. Tune in!
Topics discussed in this episode:
How COVID is affecting Brooke Nielsen & her business
Brooke shares about her business -Intuitive Warrior
Trauma and how to identify it
Highly sensitive person (HSP) and how to identify if you are one
How to deal with a highly sensitive person (HSP)
Importance of intuition in making decisions
Tips for HSPs in running a business
The Highly Sensitive Person book
Tech tools Brooke Nielsen is using in her business
How to connect with Brooke Nielsen
Get in touch with My Daily Business Coach
Resources and Recommendations mentioned in this episode:
Elaine Aron
Julianne
Glennon Doyle
Dharma talk
Jolinda Johnson
Marie Forleo’s B-School
Sarah Williams
Esther Perel
The combination of picking up on these subtleties and then having these big hearts and naturally being able to empathize more easily can then result in this empathy overload thing that I work a lot with HSP on. It’s that feeling of being almost a human sponge. It’s like, “If I don't have boundaries, I walk through the world being aware of what everybody's feeling.” For some people, it’s even like, “I soak it up and then I feel it as my own.” That empathy can become tricky and overwhelming in and of itself and painful.
Do you love your business? You should. Sometimes we don't. It's my hope that The My Daily Business Coach podcast helps you regain a little of that lost love by providing tips, tactics, tools, insights, inspiration, all the good stuff to help you enjoy running your business. In addition to actionable tips and tactics that you'll be able to execute immediately, you'll also learn from creative small business owners around the world who've been able to sidestep their hustle. Also, build a business that merges their passion with their purpose and provides a profit.
Welcome to episode 170 of The My Daily Business Coach podcast. My name is Fiona Killackey. I'm the host of this podcast. I'm also an award-winning book author, speaker, a business coach, and run a group coaching program. I want to remind you that if you've heard me talk about my group coaching program, we do have the doors open for that. You can find that over at MyDailyBusinessCoach.com/groupcoaching.
If you'd like to be part of that, do hurry as we'll be closing the doors to this round. You can find all the information over at MyDailyBusinessCoach.com/groupcoaching. You are going to listen to a small business interview. That is where I find the most creative, curious, and wonderful people from around the world and talk to them about their business.
Before I get stuck into that, it's a good one. You'll want to stick around. I want to acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians on the beautiful land in which I live and record this podcast, The Wurundjeri people of the Kulin nation. I pay my respects to their elders, past, present, and emerging, and acknowledge that sovereignty has never been ceded. I also pay my respects to any other elders, past, present, and emerging that may be listening from other indigenous and aboriginal groups around the world. Thank you for joining me and you're welcome. Let's get on with our small business interview.
If you are a regular around here, you may know that I joined a mastermind program in the US run by Melyssa Griffin. Within that, I met our guest. I am talking to Brooke Nielsen. Brooke is a licensed marriage and family therapist with more than a decade of experience. She has a lot of expertise but she is an expert in highly sensitive people, HSPs, as well as trauma and relationships.
The reason that I asked Brooke into the podcast is throughout the mastermind, I heard more about how she works with people, why she does the work that she does. I was intrigued by this idea of highly sensitive people or HSPs. I'd never heard of it before I interacted with Brooke. I was drawn to it. My entire life, I have been called sensitive. I have to say that sometimes that was not in a particularly positive way.
In every single review that I've ever had at work and even at high school, I used to always see the word empathetic come up. Sometimes to the point where I can feel I'm putting myself in other people's shoes. To the point where something horrible has happened to them, I will feel devastated physically as well. I used to always think, “Everyone's like that.” Maybe I will show it a bit more.
As I've grown and as I've gotten older, I realized not everyone is like that. I also used to think, “This is a great trait to have.” In marketing, you have to be empathetic. You have to understand your audience and think as they think and see their frustrations and pain points and with the brand as well. I found it fascinating. After I heard Brooke talking about this, I went and did some investigation and was like, “Wow.” I have to say that I still have a little bit of a struggle towards even saying, “I might be an HSP.”
This episode was interesting. Brooke, who is a specialist in this area and also a highly sensitive person herself, asked me certain questions about what I identify with and what I don't. It's personal. I am an HSP in the milder part. In this interview, Brooke goes into so much good stuff. I could have had a three-hour interview. She goes into many questions and reasons to look into this and why it's also a good thing.
If you're like me and you've grown up with certain people sometimes saying, “You're sensitive,” or, “Don't be so sensitive,” it can be seen as almost a negative trait. I love that in this interview, Brooke turns the tables on that. She flips the script and it's like, “No. There is so much amazing stuff that HSPs bring into the world and business particularly.” I know lots of you who are listening will resonate with everything that we talked about.
In addition to talking about HSPs, what that is, and why Brooke got into that in her line of work, we also talk about Brooke’s own business. She runs a business called Intuitive Warrior by Brooke Nielsen. You can find that at IntuitiveWarriorWay.com. In that, Brooke talks about how she's a therapist, a writer, and a speaker. She's teaching people how to completely accept and embrace who they are with unconditional acceptance.
We also talk about Brooke’s business, what she offers, which is everything from 1 on 1 support through to a six-month group program, and a whole bunch of great freebies as well. We talk about how she built that and going from being a licensed therapist through to running your own course and running group coaching programs and what things that she's had to learn as well along the way about business.
This is one of my absolute favorite conversations I've had on this podcast. I was a little nervous about how personal it got. I welcome Brooke and her encouraging way to bring forth your own unconditional acceptance of who you are as a person, as a small business owner, and as all the other titles that we carry in life. It's my absolute pleasure to have Brooke on the podcast. I know that you'll enjoy this interesting interview about HSPs and what they are and how they're amazing. Thank you so much again, Brooke, for joining me. Here is my interview with Brooke Nielsen, the Founder of Intuitive Warrior.
Brooke, welcome.
Thank you.
I'm excited. Thank you for making time for this chat, especially when you are 9,000 miles away on the other side of the globe.
Modern technology is unreal. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to talk to you.
Likewise. Because of the time that we're in, the pandemic, this relentless situation, I'm wondering how you're feeling at the moment. How is COVID impacting your life and your business?
Like many people, I'm hitting a place of fatigue but it's emotional fatigue. It keeps dragging on. It feels like, “Maybe there's a bit of light at the end of the tunnel,” and there's a new variant. It's a lot. Like everybody, I'm having to work with myself emotionally to keep going. What do I need to do self-care-wise to feel okay?
Business-wise, it’s interesting. I was launching a live six-month group program. I launched the week that COVID was blossoming in the States. It was the wildest thing I've ever experienced. I remember saying to someone, maybe my husband, “Should I pull the plug? What do I do with this?” My gut was like, “No. People need support right now.” I went forward with my launch. I probably had way more people sign up than I would have otherwise because I was like a buoy or a safe harbor for some folks during such a hard time.
At the start of COVID, it worked in my favor. It's been good for therapy and coaching because many people need support right now more than normal. At the same time, as COVID has continued and dragged on other services that I offer, people are fatigued to go back to that word. There are so many people offering courses and helpful things. A lot of people are overloaded and checking out. I've noticed that the way I speak about the support that I have to offer has needed to change to meet people where they're at now.
I could completely imagine. A good friend of mine is a business coach for psychologists. You forget that people in your area that are like healers and working with people through these challenging times in the best of times have to step that right up during a pandemic that you also are dealing with as well. It's not like you're immune to that somehow.
That has been trippy. I'm sure people in the medical field, teachers, or parents, many of us have had to step up during the time that we're already managing our own emotions and responses to a crisis. It's been pretty wild.
Thank you for the work that you do. I'm sure you're going to help so many people. Also, I know that you're helping so many other people. No doubt, you helped them get through this.
Thank you. I hope so.
We met through Melyssa Griffin's mastermind. You come on and you're always calm and grounded. You have such a wonderful presence, whether you felt like that or not. That's how you came across. I'd love for people who don't know your work to discuss what you do, what your business is, why you started, and how you help people. I know you've touched on it now but could you tell us a bit more about that?
Yeah, of course. I'll throw in some business elements because of the nature of your podcast. I am a licensed psychotherapist. Is that a title you guys have in Australia?
Yeah. People see psychotherapists. Overall, it's psychotherapy. We would normally say a therapist and then psychologist and then psychiatrist.
I normally say therapist. Sometimes I clarify it with a psychotherapist. I'm a therapist. I've been doing this for quite a while. I went to school in ‘06. This was something that fit with my personality. I didn't always know I wanted to be a therapist. As I started learning more about psychology in university, I was like, “I am interested in this.” I became a therapist and I was always drawn to private practice. From the time I went to school, I knew I wanted to work for myself. At that time, I never considered entrepreneurship. You're owning your own business. Something about it sounded great.
In 2013, I got licensed and started my private practice. Pretty soon after that, I identified that I was passionate about supporting this population of people that I'm a part of called highly sensitive people. Over time, I also got into supporting people with trauma healing. I’m happy to identify even what that word trauma means to me that gets thrown around so much. I started building my practice in 2013. By 2015, I had a full practice.
I had reached the goals that I had started moving towards almost a decade earlier. While I loved doing therapy, I felt so limited in how many people I could support. I can see X number of people a week and then that's it. I felt passionate about supporting highly sensitive people and it is such an under-supported group. In around 2016, I started exploring the online world and I ended up starting a second business.
My therapy business is called The Therapeutic Center for Highly Sensitive People. I started an online business called Intuitive Warrior where I can offer coaching globally as well as different support programs and communities to highly sensitive people. It was this jumping-off point for me into a much broader audience but also into this world of online business that I knew nothing about. I've been learning and growing and adding coaches and support staff to my team and growing the ways we can support people.
What a journey. I'm excited to get stuck into highly sensitive people. You mentioned that. Also, you mentioned helping people deal with trauma. What you do is such meaningful work. I would love it if you have the time to discuss what trauma is. Many people are throwing that word about. What is a highly sensitive person? I had never heard of that term until I met you. I listened to a podcast that you're on and I was like, “Oh my goodness.”
I didn't realize you identified.
I want to go back and read a book. You mentioned a book on a podcast. I would love to get your knowledge of these two words and what they mean.
Let’s start with trauma. I've noticed that's when people started using it since the pandemic. Many people are experiencing trauma because of COVID. Many people hear this word and go, “I didn't have trauma.” That sounds so intense. That's the thing that sexual assault survivors or veterans go through. My stuff wasn't trauma. The definition I like of trauma is anything too overwhelming for our nervous system to process at the moment. If I experience something that is utterly overwhelming to me even if it might not have been overwhelming to you but it was to me and my nervous system didn't know what to do with that and it froze or got stuck, that's trauma. Does that make sense?
Yeah, it does. Thank you so much for clarifying that because you do tend to think trauma has to be a major road accident where you're never going to walk again or something else huge like that. It’s what we see in movies.
Trauma could be feeling continually left out of a friend group as kids or walking on eggshells around a parent or that time where a teacher humiliated me in class and I felt utterly frozen and powerless. It's this interesting, broader definition of trauma.
I love that because it gives people permission to dive into how they can heal it rather than be like, “I should get over it myself.”
It's not like, “Let's broaden this definition so that we can all feel like victims.” No. Let's broaden this definition so that we can understand how we've been impacted and heal. Tied to that, trauma and highly sensitive people go together. What is a highly sensitive person? The term sensitive, most people at least in Western cultures are going to have a negative connotation with that word. It's been used interchangeably with fragile and weak. Many of us highly sensitive people were called, “You're too sensitive. Stop being sensitive.”
I'm laughing and going, “Yes.”
For some people, maybe you can brush that off and go, “Whatever.” For most of us sensitive people, that can be painful and this feeling of like, “Something must be wrong with me,” which is what I thought. I thought something was uniquely wrong with me. Why do I have to think so much and feel so much? When I was around 18, my mom got me a book called The Highly Sensitive Person by Elaine Aron. I read it and it was mind-blowing. I started connecting all the dots. This term, highly sensitive person, is not a descriptor like, “You're so sensitive.” It's describing a genetic trait that we are born with that makes our nervous systems more sensitive, more finely tuned than others. 15% to 20% of the population are born with this trait.
What I want for anybody new or is learning this for the first time is to know what this is saying. There's a scientific term for this called sensory processing sensitivity and not sensory processing disorder. It's been studied in 500-plus studies at this point. It's valid. It's this thing that deeply impacts how we experience the world. I wanted to give you that basic descriptor.
That completely makes sense. I remember when I heard you first talking about it, I was like, “There are definitely parts to myself and many people I know as well.” Being sensitive is seen as an insult almost. It’s like, “Calm down. Stop being sensitive.” As if it's a bad thing. I was told that many times when I was growing up, “Fiona, you’re so sensitive.” I would love for you to go into it deeper.
If you're comfortable with it, I'd be curious, how did that feel to you when someone would say that? It’s like, “Buck up,” or, “Get thicker skin,” or, “You're fine,” or, “You're too sensitive.”
It felt like you're being overly dramatic or your feelings are not warranted and you should suck it up. It sounded like, “Stop being a baby.” It’s almost like, “We have to walk on eggshells in case we offend her.”
I completely relate to that. For me, it created a lot of shame and this feeling that something was inherently wrong with me. Why couldn't I be “normal?” If you and your listeners want to figure out if you are highly sensitive, first of all, there's a page where you can take a self-test. There's this acronym that describes the four qualities of being an HSP, Highly Sensitive Person, and it’s the acronym DOES. I'll list each one and you and your readers can tick through it like, “Is this true for me or not?”
The D in DOES stands for depth of processing. HSPs think and feel deeply. Things that happened to us, things that we see, we have all kinds of mental processing that goes on about it. If a car honks right next to me, I might have a bigger reaction than a non-HSP. If somebody says something like, “You need to get over it,” I might have more thoughts or more feelings about that than a non-HSP. Deeper processing. Can I ask you with each one if they're yes or no for you?
That is 100% yes. Let’s say if I'm consulting and I went into an office, which doesn't happen during the pandemic. I would be concentrating on what I'm doing. If someone comes up and is like, “Hey,” and puts a cup of tea, I will always jump. People are always like, “You’re so jumpy.” I'm like, “Have I got something wrong with me? Am I a nervous person?”
I wouldn't say that I'm a nervous person. I don't suffer from anxiety but I do jump. If my son scares me, which is his favorite thing to do, it would take a minute for my body to calm down. 100% when you said the honking. I used to always say, “You're such an over-thinker.” I will think about something. Someone could say one comment and I will think about it for a year. I will remember that exact conversation.
It’s all of that. The exaggerated startle reflex can be from several things. In your case, it sounds like high sensitivity. It could be from if somebody's been through a ton of trauma where maybe there was a lot of loud noises or something happened unexpectedly and out of the blue. Their body can get wired to be jumpy and reactive. From the sounds of how you're describing it, you don't have anxiety that goes along with it. We have these finely tuned instruments. If we were instruments, we would be violins. We're not drums. The littlest noise, the littlest touch, we're responding in a bigger way than somebody who doesn't have that type of nervous system. That's exactly what you're describing.
I can easily pick up what other people feel like. Even if they've got a smile on their face and if I'm like, “How are you? Is everything okay?” They're like, “Actually…” I'm always the agony aunt. That is my place in lots of my friendship groups. I find this all fascinating.
This is fun. We don't have that expression. Is the agony aunt someone everybody comes and complains to?
Yeah. The agony aunt might have come from newspaper columns way back in the day where you would write a letter to the agony aunt. I've had to put boundaries up with certain individuals. A lot of my friends are amazing and not that. In my life, quite often I am the deep thinker, the one that someone comes to when their marriage is in crisis or they hate their career or whatever. I’m not always the person someone would be like, “I'm going to have the biggest party. You have to come.” That's caused some issues. We’re fully in therapy here, aren't we?
No. I'm laughing because I relate completely.
I feel like I'm rarely the person you’d come to for surface-level crap. I often need to go deep with people. I find myself frustrated if they are shooting the breeze about it. I don't even realize that I'm doing it and then other people will say, “Wow.”
I have the exact experience, which is why I love doing therapy. As a job, I get to go deep all day long. I would rather do that than small talk anytime. I want to go back to what you said about picking up on the subtleties of others. I wanted to highlight the gifts in each one of these qualities. You mentioned overthinking and that can be one of the negative sides of deep processing, thinking so much and feeling so much and having to navigate so many thoughts and feelings. The upside of that is you’re kicking ass at what you do. All of that deep thinking gets channeled into your pursuits. Does that make sense?
Yes. Americans are better at saying they're good at something. I do get that feedback, “How did you connect those things?” I always say, “That's my job. I'm doing it day in and day out.” I do have an ability to look at the whole picture sometimes more than maybe other people, not always.
I can see that from what I know of you, listening to your podcasts and looking at your site. Not everybody can do that. To tie in one more piece, one way that I work with HSPs is in both helping them with some of the struggles that come inherent with being highly sensitive and also helping them see and own these amazing gifts that come with this trait. I'm sure we'll get into that more later about creatives. This is a huge gift.
It’s through that lens.
It's such a good lens. It's such an empowering lens. We've got that depth of processing. The next letter in the acronym is O and that stands for overwhelmed. Because we're taking in so much on every level, we get overwhelmed more easily than non-HSPs. A great example for me is the American Thanksgiving. I was at a family gathering. Not only am I an introvert so that's a piece of this puzzle but also, I take in so much. I'm processing that noise. There are a lot of kids running around. There are all these conversations being had. People are asking me questions and I'm thinking about them. I'm noticing other people's emotions. I'm having feelings. After a couple of hours, I was exhausted and feeling a bit overwhelmed because my system was processing so much. Would you say that applies?
In one way no because I'm quite organized and disciplined in my work. I'm organized at home. I do all the finances for our house. Let’s say, traffic. This is a big one. I noticed it and I thought everyone does this. I was like, “They don't.” Let’s say I picked up both of my kids and then I'm turning and there's an intersection. My kids are talking. My son in the back is making sounds. They've got their playlist on Spotify. I will always turn the volume completely down. I will always say, “Quiet. I've got to concentrate.” Not if I'm turning right or something but if I'm in an intersection.
I do it even when I'm by myself in the car. I was in the city and there's a busy intersection. I have to have everything quiet to concentrate. I wouldn't say that at a party or anything. I noticed in that regard and I didn't even know I was doing it until I listened to you on this other podcast. I thought everyone does that. I'm not even aware that I need to concentrate on it.
Isn't that interesting? That does sound like what I'm discerning. Am I remembering that you're an extrovert, Fiona?
It depends on what day I do it that I get an INFJ or ENFJ. I’m half-half. Once I heard that an introvert is someone who gets energy by being by themselves and an extrovert gets it with other people, I'm 10,000% the person who needs to be by themselves.
You may be an introvert with a lot of capacity or on the line. I've noticed that HSPs who are more extroverted or right on the line sometimes can get overwhelmed less frequently because there's a bit more capacity. While we're at that, a lot of people assume that if you're a sensitive person, you must be an introvert. 30% of HSPs are extroverts. I wanted to throw that out there.
How did they deal with it? Do they still get overwhelmed by everyone?
Yes. Julianne, who works with me as an HSP coach, is an extrovert. It's interesting. We've talked about this. She can socialize and schmooze and engage ten times more than I can. Eventually, she will hit her max. I'd have to ask her. In certain situations, what I've heard the dilemmas are for extroverted HSPs is that there's this constant push-pull between the part of them that wants to go out and engage and socialize and the part of them that's like, “I need to recharge and pull back. I need to manage my nervous system.” Those things always have somewhat of a tension.
It's fascinating.
One of my favorite things is talking to people who are learning about it because it's like, “What?” I will keep going with this acronym. The E in DOES stands for empathy and emotional intensity. This goes back to what you were saying earlier. Highly sensitive people are good at empathizing. It's not like we have to try that hard to do it. We just can. This goes into the next letter. You can notice the subtle facial expressions. I'll tie that S in right here. The S in DOES is sensitivity to subtlety. We can pick up on the nuances. We pick up on, “This person is smiling but their eyes look sad.” We might notice that. Whereas a non-HSP, that might not register for them.
The combination of picking up on these subtleties and then having these big hearts and naturally being able to empathize more easily can then result in this empathy overload thing that I work a lot with HSPs on. It's that feeling of being almost a human sponge. It’s like, “If I don't have boundaries, I walk through the world being aware of what everybody's feeling.” For some people, it's even like, “I soak it up and then I feel it as my own.” That empathy can become tricky and overwhelming in and of itself and painful.
I'm laughing because I'm like, “Yes.” When I started my business, every couple of years, I sent a questionnaire out to about twenty people, some I've worked with, some have been clients, some are friends. It's not all to my friends. I will ask them for three things that I do well and one thing that I don't do so well. I have a list of words. Some of the words in there, I want to be known for and some I don't want to be known for. Every time I have done it, 90% from all walks of life have said, “Empathy is your number one word.”
They’re like, “You're quick to put yourself in other people's shoes,” which goes with marketing and brand and everything that I've worked on in my career. Sometimes it can be too much. We used to volunteer at a homeless shelter. Sometimes you talk to people and then I almost imagine my life like that for ages, which can be good. It causes you to do even more good work in your life. Even my partner said, “Fiona, let it go. Stop trying to help that person fix things. Take a minute back to yourself.”
It has upsides and downsides. The upside is, doesn't this world need more empathy? If everybody could dial up their empathy a little bit, that would be such a good thing. The downside that a lot of HSPs struggle with, I certainly did, and still sometimes is when I am aware of suffering. There is a lot of suffering in the world right now. What do I do with that? How do I not carry it around? It's second nature to be aware of it and be able to put yourself imagining it to the degree of like, “Here's what that would feel like if I was in their life.” That can be excruciating. It can be immobilizing. It can make it hard for people to live. It's a tricky one.
I remember talking to a kinesiologist and also to some members of my family who are in the health space because they're dealing with this all day long. With the pandemic, some of my clients, we’re talking about things that are much more in the mental health space. I was always saying, “You need to see a psychologist. Let's talk about mental health. You need to go and talk to your GP. That is not my area.”
I do remember talking to a kinesiologist and she said, “You've got to imagine you're driving a Vespa or a scooter and you've got a big and clear windshield ahead of you. You can see and you can help but at some point, it hits the windshield. It doesn't hit you and soak into you, taking on everybody else's problems.” I remember talking to a friend who's a GP and saying, “How do you deal with people talking to you every single day with problems?” They were saying, “You have to develop.” “Yes, I can help you to this point but you don't come into this space of mine. This is my personal space. I can't soak in everything.”
Even though I didn't have words for it, I intuitively had to learn that as a therapist quickly. If you're taking on everybody's stuff, you'd be done after a month. You'd have to retire. You'd burn out. I love that metaphor. When you first Vespa, I liked that it was a scooter because it's not a car. Some of us who are empathetic are driving around this sixteen-person van and they're like, “Why don't you pile in? I'll carry you around for a while.” That doesn't work either.
With the Vespa, you could have yourself. There’s only one room for my backpack and my problems. The S, sensitivity to subtlety, how does that show up?
The example I always give is at one point when I was seeing people in person, I changed the blinds in my office from off-white to white. It was my highly sensitive clients who came in and said, “Did you change your blinds?” Most people didn't notice that. With many creative people in your space and all the creative spaces, I'm sure that applies.
With branding, with colors, with all the things that I don't even have words for because it's not my realm but you need to notice that subtlety. You're not like, “This blue is fine.” It's like, “What is the specific blue that's going to capture what we're trying to go out here?” It can be applied a million different ways but it's noticing those subtleties that other people miss. Does that make sense?
Yes, that completely makes sense. I was having a conversation with my son about branding colors. I was showing him Pinterest boards that I was doing for a client. He was like, “Why those colors?” I was like, “How does yellow make you feel?” We’re having this whole conversation. I love that you talk about this. If these people are listening and they're like, “Yes, that's me.” This is a personality trait. There's a spectrum of an HSP. How does that work?
A spectrum and a trait both fit. What research has shown is that sensitivity is on a spectrum of low, medium, and high sensitivity. Someone applied flowers to this. The low-sensitivity people are equivalent to a daisy. A hardy plant can grow almost anywhere. I don't know about them, but the daisies here, you can see them growing on the sidewalk. They're super hardy and they can survive under all kinds of settings. Bad or good, they're fine.
There's medium sensitivity and this is more like the daffodils. They are impacted by their environment. They do need maybe a certain type of light and a certain amount of water. They're not impacted to the degree that they would wilt and die super easily. An example of this is my husband. He's medium sensitive.
You can go to HSPerson.com. There's a button somewhere on there that says, “Self-test.” If you take that test, you answer 24 questions. If you score fourteen of them or more, you're considered an HSP. My husband scored thirteen. He's right on the cusp. He is not that daisy. He is impacted by things but not to that degree. He doesn't quite have this trait. Whereas the people who are highly sensitive and then even amongst us high sensitives, there's a range of more or less highly sensitive, we are the orchids.
The way they grow is complex.
As far as I know, they need a specific type of light and this amount of water. If you give them the type of water, sun, and care that they need, they will flourish and be these stunning flowers. If you are not giving them the care that they need, they will die.
Orchids die quickly.
It's a perfect metaphor for HSPs. This is important for people to learn about. People might be like, “This sounds awful and hard to be this way.” When HSPs are in settings, families, workplaces, or communities that are not conducive to their growth, they're unkind, unsupportive, lonely, or abusive, they will welt easily. We're much more impacted by those negative environments than our non-HSPs.
Here's our superpower. When we are in environments where we're being fed, watered, we're getting the sun we need, we're around supportive people, and it's safe to be ourselves, we are impacted much more positively than non-HSPs are when they're in a positive environment. It's our superpower that we will then thrive.
This is all mind-blowing. Even though I've heard some of it before, I'm like, “Oh my God.” Many people reading this are like, “My whole life is going to change.” How do you cope or deal with people who may be listening to this and maybe don't resonate with some of it? They think, “You guys are all little Tinkerbells that need special attention. Everyone has to be kind to you all the time.” How do you talk about that?
It’s an interesting thing. When somebody has that reaction, I usually get curious. I’m like, “What's underneath that?” Have you had somebody in your life who you have negative feelings about? Maybe you felt they have used their feelings or something about their personality as an excuse to behave badly. It makes me curious. I find for some people who have that type of reaction, it’s disdain. It’s like, “Get over yourself. You're a little snowflake.”
That's what I meant and not the Tinkerbell.
At least in American culture, you'll often find a person who has been alienated from their own emotions, who's been taught that emotions are weak, stupid, silly, and are embarrassing, and they've usually rejected those in themselves have this tough guy mentality like, “Get over it. We don't need to give any space or time to those dumb feelings.” When somebody has a judgment of this trait, especially when I've explained, “This is something built-in like your eye color,” and they still judge it, I think, “I wonder what that person's relationship is to their vulnerability.” All non-HSPs as well have vulnerabilities.
I find this fascinating, even the way people feel about things. I'd love to talk about the business. In my coaching with people and even in the book and everything else, I always say that if people want to make a decision or they're thinking about something, I'll be like, “Let's look at the data. Let's look at your gut.” I've come from companies like Amazon, Audible, and other big companies where all we looked at was statistics. We’re constantly looking at the data. The data was the decision-maker a lot of the time. It needs to be the data and your gut. Sometimes we will have this intuition.
I've had two not-great clients. Both times, I know exactly where I was on the phone to them when I said, “We can do that.” I wish I hadn't. Something in my gut was like, “Do not go forward with this.” Yet, I did and it wasn't a great experience. A huge amount of people that are listening to this will be interior designers or furniture makers, photographers, graphic designers, brand strategists, that world. How can they lean into this and embrace it as a good thing? Especially now with data, they're being shown, “Don't trust your feelings so much.” Does that make sense?
1,000%. I have a bunch of things to say about that. I'm excited to get to speak to all the sensitive creative business owners listening. This is important and this has been something that's taken me such a long time to figure out about myself. I hope I can save someone some time. First of all, what you said about intuition is one of the biggest gifts, in my opinion, of being highly sensitive. That's why I named my company Intuitive Warrior. It's a defining feature. When you add deep processing plus empathy plus noticing subtlety, you get intuition and this fine attunement to your body and the feeling in your body of your gut going, “No.”
For one, I can't agree with you enough, there's such importance in intuition. If you're a business owner who's highly sensitive, your intuition is one of your biggest gifts. Don't throw that aside. Don't listen to the data. Always find a way to at least, within yourself, allow yourself to let your intuition weigh in. It's crucial. For me, I love that you say data plus gut. I wholeheartedly agree with that in my own experience. That's one.
One thing that I'm still figuring out is my capacity as a highly sensitive person. On the sensitivity scale, I scored 23 out of 24. I’m on the high end. I've found that it impacts my capacity as far as life and work. I can't see the number of clients a week that many non-HSP therapists can. The progression of my business has been much slower than I often wish it was because of my capacity. I hit my capacity more quickly.
As an example, I have wanted to write a book for years. I have an outline in my head. I've wanted to start a podcast for a couple of years but I've needed to take it one step at a time because my nervous system and my brain work in a way that I have to pace myself. I have to do it in a sustainable way. One thing for HSP business owners to look at is where might you be pushing yourself past your capacity because you think you should. That's what other business owners do, “Isn't this what hard work looks like?” Fiona, do you see this tendency of people to push past their limits?
All the time. Also, thinking that the only way to do something is to work seven days a week. Especially in the early years, people are like, “That's the reality.” There are times where you're going to have to work hard. I'm so much of the anti-hustle mindset. I can't stand the idea of grinding. It's a recipe for disaster for most people in the world whether you're HSP or not.
Glennon Doyle, the author, says that HSPs are the canaries in the coal mine. We pick up danger or we manifest consequences more quickly than non-HSPs. This hustle and grind culture is unhealthy for everybody. Oftentimes, the HSPs are going to hit burnout more quickly. We're the cautionary tale to everyone else. If you find a lot of the people who are doing work like burnout coaches or health coaching or consulting or coaching, it's the HSPs who are here going, “You have to listen to your body. You have to find what’s sustainable for you.” We have hit those walls and we've learned the hard way.
Also, you're sensitive to yourself as well. If I get antsy, that means I have too much on my plate. I can feel it and I'm like, “Something is wrong.” I'll usually look at my calendar and I'll usually say to my assistant, “Can you please take this and this off because I need some spaciousness?” Otherwise, I'm not going to be able to do the best job that I can do for other people, myself, my family, or all the other roles that I have outside of my business.
People reading can take that as a tip. Figure out what your body feels like when it's overstimulated or overwhelmed and start using that as your gauge. I have such a capacity probably because I'm a trauma survivor. I had to learn how to compartmentalize and push through. I have this crazy capacity to push past what my body would like me to do. If I asked my head, “Can I do more? Is this okay?” My brain is always going to be like, “You've got another hour in you.” If I do what my body feels like when I'm overwhelmed, I can go to my gut, “How does my body feel?” “It feels jittery, tense, and exhausted.” There's my answer. It's time to stop.
Especially in Western culture, we don't listen to our bodies enough. In so many other cultures, they've had thousands of years of like, “What does this feel like?” I always remember years ago, I listened to this Dharma talk. I can't remember who the person talking was but it was a monk. He was saying, “You should sit down with yourself today and say, ‘How are you?’ You answer.” If I say, “How are you? I'm feeling busy.” You keep going, “I'm feeling angry.” “How are you? I'm feeling stressed and tired.” You get right to the core of how you are rather than, “How are you? I am a bit busy.” That would be your initial answer. You keep going until you physically feel how you are.
That's beautiful. I love that. You get to something that's so much more deep and honest. You listen to it.
It might have been something completely different. I was talking to a client and she was saying that she was stressed about her particular staff member. When we were uncovering it a bit more, she got upset and was saying, “I find this time of year hard.” She has lost a child. I was like, “The problem is not the staff at all. The problem is all this other stuff is going on in your life, all these other reminders. Are you taking enough time to deal with that?” You can even see on the surface level, “It's my staff. They're not doing the job.” It's all this other hurt that is underneath.
You're touching into another gift that sensitive business owners can capitalize on, which is we do well with self-reflection. We do well when we're in a good environment. HSPs tend to do well with coaching and with therapy. How much further are you going to get in your business when you have the insight you help this person get, “I'm mad at my staff.” There's so much more underneath that.
That person is going to be a more effective leader. If you’re projecting crap onto their staff, they're able to self-reflect and then lead from this more honest place. Something that sensitive business owners can do is invest in their personal work, whether that's business coaching or mental health coaching. That will help your business because you're going to be able to internalize that insight at a level that many non-HSPs are not able to.
Another thing I wanted to ask that comes up a lot with people regardless of how big and successful and all the things they seem to be externally at least is comparison. I work with brands, marketing, mindset systems, money, financial structures, and stuff. For instance, they want to create a new collection or they want to collaborate or they want to get this product to market and they'll say, “I'm annoyed. I saw that X, Y, Zed has done something similar.”
There's this real comparison because they're taking in all this stimulus or stimuli as well. I'm wondering if someone's listening and they identify as HSP. Do you have any tips or things they should be aware of when it comes to running a business such as a comparison? How can they quash these negative feelings or anything else that might come up because they're sensitive?
First of all, add me to that list because I struggle with that as well. That goes back to this journey to accepting myself. Here's how I show up. Here is my pace. Also, to your point of, these human things that everyone struggles with, everyone struggles with comparison. If you're sensitive, the main thing that comes to mind is making space for you to have your feelings in your life including your business. I am speaking to myself right now as well.
How many of us are taught in Western cultures that business isn't personal and you need to put aside your emotion. You need to be “professional.” You need to show up and your emotions and personal life should not get in the way of anything. Maybe that works for some people. For most HSPs who are deep feeling and deep thinking beings, it's not often realistic for us to compartmentalize ourselves to that degree that we set aside our humanity when we go to work. Comparison being one of those things. You're having a day where you are comparing yourself and it's impacting you. If it's a little comparison and you can put it aside for now, great. Let's say it's got you down.
The thing I would recommend is to take 5 or 10 minutes to journal about it or go talk to a friend about it rather than trying to squish it and say, “Move on. You're fine.” That doesn't work at a neurological level. You can't say, “Stop thinking about it.” Taking 5 to 10 minutes to kindly say, “Brooke, let's write about what's happening. What am I feeling? What am I thinking? I feel like such a loser because I see them doing this. I should have thought of that first. Now everybody's going to go follow them. They're going to stop caring about me.”
It might sound childish or silly but we still need to give ourselves space to have that. When I give myself that space to talk it out or write it out, quite often, it breaks the spell. I might not be totally fine but I'm like, “I see that. That's a younger part of me that's feeling insecure right now. Why don't I make myself a good lunch today? Let me make sure to reach out to that friend tonight and give myself some support. I'm going to take a bath and watch a show I love to take care of myself.”
Years ago, we were trying to get pregnant again and it was taking a long time. I worked with a health coach. I remember Jolinda Johnson, she specializes in that area. Now she specializes in perimenopause. We ended up doing IVF. She said, “Throughout the day, give yourself a hug. When you're making a cup of tea, give yourself a hug.” I don't know if this is real or not. She was like, “The body doesn't know if it's being hugged by someone else or yourself.” She's like, “Give yourself these self-compassion breaks as you would a child and be like, ‘Everything's okay. Everything's going to work out.’” All that stuff.
I've heard that as well. I assume it's true as well. At least in American culture, there's this ethos. If you give yourself a hug, you're almost like coddling yourself or enabling yourself. That's almost like making yourself into a baby or something. It’s about tough love. The research shows that does not help us. It doesn't help us on any level to be harsh with ourselves. Interestingly, it's like being that orchid and watering ourselves well and giving ourselves sun. Giving ourselves that hug is going to make us more able to have a thriving business and more effective as business owners.
Can I ask you a random question that you might be able to answer or you might be like, “This is a long piece of string.” Highly sensitive people are great at therapy and coaching. Do they make good business owners? Is there a reason that maybe they shouldn't go in? Let’s say they want to create an eCommerce store that's a product base and not serving face-to-face with anyone. Is it still a good idea?
Yes. HSPs make amazing business owners. As much as we share this trait, we're all different. There are HSPs in every realm of work. The types of business owners who follow your podcast, many creatives are sensitive. The person who wrote this seminal book, the psychologist Elaine Aron, thinks HSPs do especially well working for themselves. There are so many reasons. Having that autonomy, being able to work the way that we do, which tends to not necessarily mesh with the typical corporate environment, and having space for our creativity. Also, getting to make decisions without checking in with a million people. The freedom of it. There are so many ways that it's a great fit for HSPs.
Thank you. I wonder if people are listening to this and going, “Oh my goodness.” Tell us about your business. You've helped so many people in all sorts of ways. I know you worked with Melyssa. I worked with you then as well. I was part of that. I'm wondering have you had any mentors, coaches, or books that have helped? You mentioned The Highly Sensitive Person book. What has helped you build your businesses? It sounds like you've done a lot of self-education as well. What has helped you with building your business and getting to where you are today?
Fiona, it's funny, I was thinking about this. The number one thing that has helped me build my business is a lot of good therapy, me getting therapy. I'm not sure this is true for everybody. When I started particularly building my online business, it required me to get out of my comfort zone in many ways, put myself out there and learn. There was so much vulnerability that triggered a lot of my old wounds. The number one thing was doing therapy that helped me move past that.
I'm a competent person. The main thing that was getting in the way was fear, self-doubt, and the feeling of immobilization and freeze. 80% of getting to where I am today has been working through the emotional stuff that has come up. As far as the actual logistics of it, I took Marie Forleo’s B-School. That was my first type of coaching type program. That's where I learned the basics. With Melyssa, I was a part of her mastermind for a year. I did a ton of growing through that.
Sarah Williams, who is our mastermind, has the business Rebel Office. I cannot recommend it highly enough. She worked with me as the strategist and integrator. I've learned so much through working with her. Those stand out. I have a ton of business. I've picked up a lot of books but more of the coaching has stood out to me.
I love that you're transparent with that. America, in general, from what I've seen is a lot more open about seeking therapy and seeking psychological help than Australia. We still have a huge stigma around admitting that you see a psychologist or admitting that you have ever seen a psychologist. I completely agree. I saw a psychologist when my mom passed away. She was initially a grief psychologist. She helped me uncover so many things. I second what you say. A lot of it is the stuff that is going on in your head and not what anyone else is saying or any of your clients or customers are doing.
It's true. Most of the people that I've met in these other business-type containers, usually there's this huge psychological component that they have to address.
Even in my book, I remember saying, “When you have a business, you have both the psychologist and the person getting therapy at the same time.” You're constantly asking yourself, “Why do I think that? Fiona, why do you think that?” It’s the small things even. When you find yourself not wanting to send an email, it's like, “Why don’t I want to send that email? What’s coming up for me?” You have to do so much exploration that you don't necessarily have to do in an employed role when you're working for somebody else with all of the detachment from what you're doing.
I agree. It's intense. It's no joke to be an entrepreneur. I ordered your book and I'm so excited to get it.
Thank you so much. What about any tech tools on there on the practical side? Do you use any tech tools especially when you're coaching? I know you've got your courses.
As far as the backend, I use the typical ones like Asana. Although we're probably going to switch off of that. Also, Slack. For our programs, we are on Mighty Networks. I enjoyed it. I was on Thinkific before that. The thing I love about Mighty Networks is the community element is the central piece. Particularly for my business, I find that community among sensitive people is important. It has a beautiful dashboard and a clean experience.
Can I ask why you're coming off Asana?
I'm coming to peace with it more. I found for quite a while that it would overwhelm me. I was having to make a list off of Asana to order my tests and everything. The way it held them for me wasn't enough. Does that make sense?
Yes, that completely makes sense. What have you found the hardest? You've talked about a few things. What would you say has been the hardest part of running your business?
There are two things. One is going back to honoring my pace without comparing myself and accepting my pace. It’s like, “I wish these 55 things were already done.” Because I've got such an active mind, I have so many ideas. I can get frustrated when I can't implement them as quickly as I'd like. That's been challenging. Also, coming from the therapy world, when I went to school to become a therapist, there was zero business training.
We had a three-hour workshop about owning your own business but there was almost nothing. My learning curve has been so huge. There are so many aspects of business running that are not my gifts. That's been tough. It's easy to be doing therapy and be like, “I love this and it feels natural.” All the other elements of the business have been humbling. It's been a huge learning curve to be like, “I need to get help in this area.”
It takes so much courage to say, “I need help. I can't do it all by myself.”
It's hard.
It feels amazing when you get the right fit and you're like, “I don't have to think about that anymore. It's all being taken care of.”
It's such a relief.
On the flip side, what are you most proud of? I love asking people this question. What are you most proud of when it comes to your journey and your business?
It's the emotional stuff for me. I've had to overcome so much to be a functioning and thriving person, in general, including my business. There were so many points where my fear wanted me to give up and would tell me all kinds of things, like, “No one cares.” All this fear-based stuff. I feel proud that I kept going and that I've maintained the heart of my business. I try to practice continuing to come back to, why am I doing this? Who am I serving? What's the point? I feel proud that I haven't lost that.
You haven't lost that at all. You're so heart-centered. The heart is evident in everything that you do. On that note, if people are reading this and they're thinking, “I want to work with her. I need to have Brooke in my life.” I'm sure a lot of people will be reading this and thinking, “My mind has been blown.” How do they do that? What work do you do outside of direct psychological therapy? Where can people find out? Where's the best place to connect with you?
The best place to find me is on our site, IntuitiveWarriorWay.com. We have a bunch of ways that you can work with us that we can support you. We've got a lot of free and helpful resources on there. That’s the feedback I've been given. If you go to IntuitiveWarriorWay.com/resources, we've got a few on there for you.
I do coaching. I have limited spots available. I have a couple of coaches who work under me who are amazing and they do have availability. We have several programs to support you, our group programs. I found that for HSPs, we need that connection and a handhold to walk through some of this tough stuff. Both of my online programs have a community component with every other week’s calls and support. That's the range of support that we offer. We are also on Instagram, @IntuitiveWarriorWay.
It's been such a delight chatting with you. I could stay here for hours and hours but I should let you go and go to sleep.
Same, Fiona. Thank you.
Thank you so much. Take care.
Take care.
I could talk to Brooke all day. I am fascinated by this. I'm fascinated in general by psychology. I often joke around saying that after this business coaching stuff is done, I'm becoming a psychologist and that is what I'll do until my dying day. I am in love with people like Esther Perel. I watch Couples Therapy on SBS. I read so many books in that space. It was my absolute pleasure to have somebody like Brooke with her incredible knowledge and expertise on this podcast.
I would love to know what you took away from this. I would love to know if you would consider yourself an HSP. Where do you sit on the spectrum? She put in the sensitivity test. I would love to know what you thought of this podcast. It was a little different from many of my usual small business guests. I'm fascinated. I would love to know if you are too.
Please feel free to send me a DM. I'm @MyDailyBusinessCoach on Instagram. Also, you can connect with Brooke over on Instagram, @IntuitiveWarriorWay. Of course, if you have been reading this and thinking, “I need to connect with her and work with her and maybe be part of a group coaching program or the other offers that Brooke has.” You can find out more at IntuitiveWarriorWay.com.
There are so many things that stood out for me. There are so many notes I've written. Two that stand out for me when it comes to small businesses as well is one that Brooke touched on many times in this interview, which is to listen to your body as well. I have talked to clients and I've talked about on this podcast the idea of data and gut when it comes to making decisions. Look at the analytics but also look at your gut. How are you feeling?
Our body has so much intelligence to tell us. We can feel it. We can sense danger. We can sense people's moods physically without even talking to somebody. I love that she talked about looking at physically how you're reacting to things. Even if you're having a conversation with a staff member, what is happening to you physically? Watch them physically.
I remember years ago having a conversation with somebody and she said to me, “You can lower your shoulders.” I said, “What?” She's like, “Do you realize how tense you are? Your shoulders are right up next to your ears.” I was like, “Oh my goodness.” I had never noticed it. She was like, “Relax your shoulders.” Even just that, I remember thinking, “Wow.” Your body is giving us this information all the time. If we can get in touch with that, it's such a huge thing in life, especially in the business as well as small business owners to be able to check-in with yourself and think. “How am I feeling right now?” Physically as well as emotionally. I love that Brooke talked about that.
The other thing that I love that Brooke talked about is that this isn't a bad and “negative” thing to be sensitive about. I love that she talked about if people are aware that this is a part of them and if they're nurtured in the right way and not in this, “You're a beautiful snowflake. We have to be careful with everything we say,” in a positive way. Also, seeing that these people bring so much to the table and have such incredible ability to read situations, to read people, to see the whole picture, then everyone wins.
I love that point. That is true about any personality trait. Maybe not some of the psychopathic world. The more we can uncover about ourselves, the more we are better people in general in the community and better business owners. I loved those points and so many more that Brooke made. If you have read this and you want to find out more about how you could work with Brooke, you can find that out at IntuitiveWarriorWay.com. You can also find a bunch of free tools there. You can find all of that on the show notes which are available at mydailybusinesscoach.com/podcast/170.
If you enjoyed this episode and I know that many people will, I know there'll be lightbulb moments going off here, there, and everywhere. Please share it with a friend, especially if you think that maybe they are highly sensitive. Maybe you've even had a conversation with them around this and you think that this might be super duper helpful for them. Share it.
If you would like to share it on social media, please make sure you tag @MyDailyBusinessCoach and Brooke, @IntuitiveWarriorWay, so that we don't miss it. Thank you so much for reading. Reminder, if you are interested in group coaching, we will be closing the doors soon. You can find all the information over at MyDailyBusinessCoach.com/groupcoaching. That’s it for this episode. Thank you so much for tuning in. I'll see you next time.
Thanks for listening to The My Daily Business Coach podcast. If you want to get in touch, you can do that at MyDailyBusinessCoach.com or hit me up on Instagram, @MyDailyBusinessCoach.
