Episode 22: How To Run A Successful Business in Partnership With Family, While Raising Young Children with Laurinda and Fatuma Ndenzako of Fashion and Accessories Brand, Collective Closets
In this interview episode, Fiona talks to sisters Laurinda and Fatuma Ndenzako, founders of Collective Closets, an amazing Melbourne-based clothing label that merges, “the chic deconstructed but restrained silhouettes of Melbourne and the wild, untamed, and deregulated aesthetics of modern African fashion drawing inspiration from the city of Nairobi.” Listen in to this chat as Laurinda and Fatuma share their experiences running a small business as sisters, how they cope with motherhood and business, and their top tips on becoming a truly empowering brand.
Topics discussed in this episode:
Business During COVID [00:22]
On Having Babies While Running A Business [3:17]
About Collective Closets [5:02]
Running A Business With Your Sister [7:03]
One's Role in Running The Business [11:14]
What The Whole Family Thought About Starting and Running A Business Together [13:13]
Finding Suppliers [18:56]
Who To Partner With in Business [22:12]
On Giving Back [27:17]
On Selecting Models [29:01]
On Business and Diversity [33:30]
Coping With Motherhood and Business [42:44]
Recommended Tools, Podcasts, People or Books [50:23]
Courses Taken for The Business [1:00:00]
On Looking Back [1:04:26]
What Is Next for Collective Closets [1:12:00]
Conclusion [1:17:22]
Resources mentioned in this episode:
Episode transcript:
Hello and welcome to episode 22. I am particularly excited about this episode as it’s an interview I conducted a little while ago with two of the most incredible, down-to-earth and beautiful small business owners I’ve ever had the pleasure of meeting.
Laurinda and Fatuma Ndenzako are sisters and the founders behind fashion and accessories label, Collective Closets. The brand was born after they took a family trip to Kenya and were struck with the idea of combining traditional African patterns and fabrics with contemporary Melbourne design.
As you’ll hear in this episode, the idea for starting a brand was one thing, actually accomplishing that while still working other jobs and raising small children, was quite another. I LOVE these women and one thing I love about them is their absolute honesty, they are so open and happy to discuss their challenges, as well as their wins and how they have learned from both.
On a personal note, Laurinda and Fatuma have been such a huge supporter of me both of my business and also just a huge support as a mum myself, and with various challenges I have been through. I will never ever forget after my mum died, meeting them for a drink and they’d bought a beautiful orchid and then went into detail about their own mum’s passing. We can sometimes forget that behind businesses are real people, who, in addition to tackling everything day to day that a small business brings, are also dealing with the everyday stuff that happens in our personal lives.
Outside of being remarkable, strong, sensitive and supportive people, they have also created a brand that it’s impossible not to fall in love with. The colour palette, the way their silhouettes flatter everyone and their giving-back mentality make them a brand impossible to resist.
I hope you enjoy this chat with Fatuma and Laurinda Ndenzako, founders of Collective Closets.
We were just chatting before we started that we're all mums. We are recording this after bedtime during COVID. Speaking of COVID, people would have just heard a little bit about your business in the intro. But how has COVID impacted Collective Closets and your life?
Fatuma: Yeah, well, it's been a bit of a crazy year, I'm not going to lie to you. I mean, it's been amazing at the same time. We didn't really know, like, how it was going to affect the economy. The fear, like it was a very scary disease at the start. I mean, it still is. My husband has type one diabetes and we went to full lockdown from the minute the government was kind of talking about it. And so at the start, it was really scary. At the start, we kind of just put everything on hold. We shut the store down, which is really sad, but we realised it was really necessary at that time. And then we kind of just thought, wow, what does this mean for us? Which was a really good moment to kind of just take a bit of a breath, because we were kind of running at full steam. And it was sad because we thought this is going to be our year. This 2020 is our year - Collective Closet's year. But it took a minute and we understood what the fundamentals were of why we started the business. A good kind of like, "Why did we start this? How we where we are on track? It was actually really nice and refreshing. So we kind of had a few meetings that decided to maybe talk about more and connect with our customers a bit more. And that kind of conversation with them. And so from that, we end up starting Collective Conversations which has been one of the best things that we've done in terms of just connecting with people. You know, one of the things that we've always wanted to do is empower women around us to showcase all these amazing women that we know. And so it kind of went back into our roots and we had the capacity and the time to do it. And then from there, we kind of just literally cracked on with the new collection. And we knew the colours were amazing. We really loved what we thought we were going to do and we kind of did it. And it's been a mad rush and it's been super crazy and really busy. So, you know, I think for us, we've had lots of highs and lots of lows, but we feel really confident and really strong in the brand kind of coming out of it.
So I think it's fantastic that you're able to have a bit of time to really go back to the roots of the business and why you started all of that stuff. And, Laurinda, you had a baby not that long ago. How old is your son?
Laurinda: Oh my goodness. He just turned 10 months, like two weeks ago.
Oh, wow. And so crazy year. As this is your first child as well, is that right?
Laurinda: It's been absolute bananas. Honestly, like you just add me at home with the baby, COVID, the whole pandemic, a business that just takes up so much of you. At times it felt like a recipe for disaster. And then other times, Fatuma said, we've had kind of moments where we've just taken a deep breath and we're actually able to have some highs as well as some pretty crappy lows. Oh, gosh. But it definitely the motherhood mix for myself being my first and being that just not knowing what I'm doing as a mom has been crazy.
I don't think anyone knows what they're doing. And Fatuma, you also have a two year old. So it's not like you're out of the woods completely in that area either.
Fatuma: Yeah, no, but I think that, you know. You know. The older they get, the easier it is to work in the times that you can. And they're not so reliant on you. Where I think that Laurinda's is in a phase where, you know, she's still breastfeeding. So a lot of reliance on her. No sleeping as well. So I'm glad to be out of that stage.
But for those who don't know what Collective Closets is, which is your business, what is it? And how and why did you start this?
OK, so our Collective Closets for those that don't know, is a Melbourne based business. So sorry. Collective Closets is a Melbourne based women's clothing label. That was launched about six years ago, which basically the foundation of our business celebrates our dual heritage and our two cultures as African Australians and I'm really proud of that. So basically, I guess the collections in the store behind our label really came through to life. And what our label really celebrates is the textiles. It celebrates our heritage. It celebrates so many amazing memories of what our mother and aunties just wear these really beautiful fabrics that we've known for since we were little girls. It's such a big part of our culture and it's essentially really the DNA of our brand. Collective Closets is really so much of our brand is all the storytelling. It's the heart of every collection that we release. We really love to include the women that we talk to through our clothing, I guess. Also through our social media. And the storytelling is the heart of what we do.
Yeah. And so we'll, of course, been linking to Collective Closets, website, Instagram and everything else in the show notes. But yeah, like you said, it's got that heritage and a lot of African fabrics and just brought beautiful, amazing colours.
But when you were working together as sisters, did you sit down and have serious discussions about business partnerships or did you feel like you knew enough about each other's strengths and weaknesses or areas for improvement, that you would just figure out who did what in the business? And also, like, what did the rest of the family have to say about this? Because you've got other siblings as well. Was anyone sort of against it or were they just like, yeah, go for it? You two worked really well together.
Laurinda: I think it was kind of a combination of both. So essentially, when we did start the business as sisters, I mean, I'll be honest to say that we probably didn't map out our roles to a T from then as opposed to what we have done sort of over the last cycle for the year or two, I think at this point in time, we've done a better job of carving out exactly who does what in the business. When we first started the business six years ago, I think we kind of already knew what each other's strengths were before we had Collective Closets, the clothing label. We already had some other small businesses and hobbies we both did. And previously, I guess, to having Collective Closets, we also had other jobs that we've done. So the Fatuma's really well versed in supply chain. She's really well versed in logistics aspect of things. She's really good at numbers. She's really good at big picture thing. And where my strengths really lie on is the creative part of it. More like the fine tuning, the finer details of things. I'm sort of organising all the photo shoot. The selections of colours and fabrics and how that will end up in the []. So we kind of knew that, I would say probably that's as far as we've got at the beginning. And then as the business evolved and got bigger and got more demanding. It just really forced us to sit down. I think he left your collection after collection and really do our best to try and map out more clearer roles. And the funny thing is, I feel like now almost going on six years on, I feel like we've probably gotten to a place mostly now where I can comfortably say I wear the creative director role where Fatuma can comfortably say she's the operations manager. So she does all the production. She does all the back and forth with figuring all the numbers and then she'll give them back to me. And I think through the years, we've gained so much more trust where in the beginning to do a photo shoot, even just picking out the concept, it had to be we both had to be happy with it, whereas now we don't have that time and that luxury and there's so much more trust with the both of us. So Fatuma goes, "this is the budget for a shoot. I'm able to take that budget and organise our team of photographers to make up" and I'll present Fatuma what I think the concept really roughly of the photo shoot should be. We essentially sign off of everything together. Anything that's really big budgeted over a certain amount. Fatuma still has to come to me and we'll sit down and make this collective decision. But a lot of the time, she can go away and say, hey, you know, production wise, this particular item did really well. And I think we should brand X, Y, Z numbers on it and I'll sit down with her. She'll essentially sell it to me and I'll be like, that makes it. So the roles through the years, I think we've done a better job at identifying what our strengths were. I definitely don't think at the beginning we thought that through. I think it's just been an organic process and there's also been some highs and lows. [There] have been a lot of sort of things that have happened along the way that haven't always been easy for us to deal with. But I think we've done a relatively good job of being like, well, this is what you're really good at. Like any job that you'd have. Why don't we give you that, as you'll have to be silly for me to try take on Excel spreadsheet. To this day, Fiona, it's just not my forte and I have no interest in it. So Fatuma can just take it and I'm fine with that. So it gets better, I think as well, identifying our roles as a business like slurries, more hurdles or more obstacles in our way. Some things we've just had to kind of adapt with like the store. That's something that neither one of us have ever had in the past. But yeah, we were able to kind of help navigate and help each other through. Yeah. Through that process.
I think that takes such bravery, especially maybe even more so with a sister. Because you probably also want to go the extra mile to make them feel like you were all getting, you know, your voice is just as important and all of that stuff. And so I think it's really good that you have identified those things because it can take years and years and years. Even people in business for 10, 20 years still don't necessarily have really clear delineations. And it can cause such angst for people in the business, but also for people coming into the business like new staff members. It can be quite confusing if there's not clear roles of who does what.
Fatuma: Well, it's still a bit of a work in progress, but I think when you start a business, as you know, it takes a lot to sustain. I think the first few years, it was sustained by passion. If something needs to be done, we're both still up til two in the mornings onboarding our collection. And all of that add me because so I've been. And all those little jobs, you both have to do it to kind of get to that level. I think that once you do, it's almost perfect because because I think it allows you both to work out what's required. And for people that love that to actually take that on board, because there are a lot of things that are really mundane about, you know, running a business. We can divide it between life, the things that I'm really passionate about and what Laurinda is passionate about and then letting that person own that space. And because there's so many things to do as well. I have a lot of time to micromanage each other. You know, we're at the point where Laurinda just has to do her thing. I just have to do my thing. And, you know, anyone else that works with us had their thing. And we all have to kind of work as a bit of an engine. And so you're forced to just kind of play to your strengths.
What did your family think of you guys starting it?
Laurinda: I think they were probably used to it. And I think it was really lovely, just sort of looking back and thinking back at sort of some reactions from friends and family. And it was almost that people were kind of waiting like the family was kind of like all this is just the next step for you guys, even though for us so scary and so daunting to come to them and be like, Fatuma and I are really thinking about starting a clothing line business and we're really serious about this and this is what we want to do. And then everyone else was like, oh, yeah, really cool. So it's almost like you're expecting like a you know, all what are you guys doing? You know, you guys are so silly for doing this. This is gonna be a complete disaster. So for us, I think the most beautiful thing was just seeing our siblings and our really close girlfriends and our partners as well, just be like, oh, yeah, we were just waiting for you guys to finally get your crap together and do it. You know what I mean. That was really refreshing. At the same time, like, my younger sister was just like, I hope you guys can just work together really well and not kill each other in the process of doing it. But yeah, we had so much support, like even to this day. It blows my mind to think of our very first collection and our very first launch that I essentially was really just like with so many friends and so many family, it was just beautiful art gallery and yeah, just all the love and support and encouragement. And we've been really, really blessed, I guess, to have that.
Is that right? With supply?
Laurinda: So it's all our suppliers. So it kind of worked both ways, actually. When we first started the business, our suppliers were predominantly in Kenya, in Nairobi. That's for our Rintel, which we use the Maasai sugar, which is the Czech fabrics that we'd like to be known for. And then we also have like the cotton fabric, which we call a key tingay, which we were sourcing through various channels. But the heart of our fabrics come from Nairobi, Kenya. And you're definitely right. Starting our own business is just hard in itself. And then on top of that, when you add that extra layer where your suppliers are halfway across the world and then with the Kenyan timezone there, like eight hours behind us. Somewhere like now where we're we're having this discussion, they just sort of waking up or sort of just sort of halfway through the day. So that can be really difficult. And essentially then the ad like putting a child at bedtime and doing all day sort of mechanics, because that's the role that I take on to the business. And Fatuma relies on me to kind of be on top of when our fabrics are arriving, what the choices are, what the selections are. These are amazing Guy Loten in our very busy on top of the delivery. And we have a son that also helps with aspects of the business. And then I have my mother in law in the mix. There's quite a few hands that I have to contact in order to be able even to see what's available, then to find someone to go and actually do the fabrics, do like the preproduction stuff there for us. And then we did actually have some of our production last winter. We took some of our production in Kenya and that was another hurdle within itself. So we just wanted to sort of dip our toes in the water, so to speak, just to see what taking some of the production and celebrating the, you know, celebrating the makers in Nairobi, Kenya, would look like. And that wasn't easy. I was really, really difficult. And that's like it's a part of the business that we're still working on, even 6 years in. I wouldn't 100 percent say that it runs seamlessly, do a lot of hiccups that happened, and then also with the pandemic, it's just caused a lot more, I guess, anxiety on our end to be able to get our fabrics in a timely manner.
Laurinda: Expenses have gone up quite significantly. Kenya were in locked down, I think from March up until two weeks ago. They were in really strict lockdown. So it was really difficult as well to get our team to be able to go see the fabrics and put them at risk. So things were really just halted with something like a pandemic. And having your fabrics and suppliers halfway across the world, it's been really hard, but we've been able to manoeuvre it pretty well. Look, there's been some stressful moments, but at the same time, we celebrated a lot of highs as well. And it's been amazing for Fatuma. And I also like to have a team in Nairobi that we really, really trust because we're sending quite a lot of money to three different hands. [...] I've got to meet Lajon, who is the amazing guy that actually helps me get all the fabrics from our supplier. He does a lot of ground work in Nairobi. And yeah, he's amazing. And I've got to just have dinner with him last year, actually, when I was just there and met his family and it's like a real community for Fatuma and I that we've managed to build.
And how did you even find those suppliers when you're in Melbourne? How did you find those suppliers?
So part of how we found the suppliers is, I guess, how we even started the business. So about maybe six years ago, it was six or seven years ago, I was about to get married and my husband's Kenyan and we went over first just to meet the whole family and also on holiday. And we went to all the market and that was kind of what started that whole idea and concept of us getting our fabrics possibly from Nairobi, Kenya. I mean, we've always worked with African textiles. But being that we're from Angola and my husband's from a particular completely different country, I really we weren't really that well versed with what Kenya had to offer? So I was really lucky that his family was able to introduce me to all the textiles. And he had a cousin, actually, that is a seamstress. And her and I just really hit it off. We were really able to help me make some makers and some, you know, just kind of see things and like really loosely. And then I was able to come back to Melbourne and say to Fatuma, you know, how we want to start that business. How about we get our fabrics from here and then we'll. Yeah. So I've been really, really lucky to have my husband as the person that introduced me to his family members. I've been really blessed to have my mother in law who is like honestly like part of the backbone of our business. So everything kind of goes through her. So I'm able to send her all the funds. I mean, she's able to then distribute those funds. So she helps us when I'm there. She's the one that kind of takes me on the road and her and I go travelling together and she's just so passionate about helping us. Yes. So she's amazing. So without her, it would've been ten times as hard. But we've been really lucky. It's almost like fate brought everything together. Like I met my husband and I wanted to start this business and I went to Kenya. And then it was just like a snowball effect. So sitting in Melbourne, I think Fatuma and I would've found it really difficult on our own just to go, OK, where we're going to find a supplier. So I definitely don't want to make it sound like it was just like this whimsical story that occurred. But we have been really lucky that all our connections through luxe fabrics and our textiles and our makers and all the relationships that we've been able to build essentially have been from my husband and his family and the fact that they've being just so amazing at empowering us to just take this business... And my mother just want this business to be like the biggest thing ever. So she's forever staying up late at night if she needs to just help us. So we've been very lucky.
And can you talk us through how you chose who to partner with and how it actually works? How does it actually work with you? And what advice would you give to other people?
Fatuma Well, I think it's kind of if I take it back, it's not really about business for us. I mean, the conception of Collective Closets, you know, here in Kenya, we understand how amazing. All these people around us giving. And like we would just like it made sense. It wasn't like this will be good, you know, good on the web site. This is what we're doing. We're going to have to find a way for us to give back. And so that was strike conception of it. And then again, we're lucky because Laurinda's husband's mother does what she does for a line of work. So she was able to kind of like, you know, navigate us. And then so she kind of presented a few. And we told her what we're looking for. And so when we first started doing it, it's changed a lot. We're like, we're going to do all this amazing stuff. And like you said, as you start to work out the logistics of it, we've realised this is not really benefiting or making an impact that we want it to be. It's not actually working from outside. And we kind of then relooked at it and we found a better way that we, regardless of whether we had Collective Closets or not, Laurinda and I looked at who we are as people, and said, this is what we're going to do. We're going to help, you know, through education and empowerment of women. We're going to try and take, like, you know, donate or give funds to a child, to a female preferrably just because of the way we run our business. And we were just going to get them throug high school. And this is what we want to do, regardless of whether the business is successful or not. And I think that makes it a different story because it's not just about Collective Closets. It's just about. This is what we're doing. This is who we're supporting. This is when we get the school report. So when we get an update where we feel personally responsible. So I think that if you are starting a business and you want to do something, I think you've got to do it in the most authentic way, that it's all your business. And it might be just a donation. It might be a campaign or a percentage of sales for a period. I don't think it's anyone's job to judge how you want to do it, but I think it needs to make sense and it needs to enrich your business in the way that you think best fits, because, you know, we do one thing, but other businesses are giving millions of dollars and we're not going to help ourselves be kind of like happy in what we've decided to do, because we know that we're making a difference in the way that we can. And I think that my advice at any business is to stay authentic to who you are, pick something if that's what you want to do. Pick something and for us, if people find that about us, we're really chuffed to have conversations about it. But it's also that I know that about us. And that's fine. You know, like we know that our mission is to empower women and to know that education is the way to do it. And we really find that important. And so that's how we want to do it. But like I said, everyone can just do what they can. I think, as well as like in this day and age, in a way, you know, 10 years ago, businesses didn't have to do anything. We'll judge them. We'll look differently. You know, the business environment has changed and sometimes people feel like they need to do something. I think it's really hard as well, like your small business. You know, there's lots of issues in trying to get to that next level. And, you know, you kind of need a bit of a grace period to understand where you're going to put your money, how are you going to spend it, how to be profitable in this space. So I don't think people should be beating themselves hard for not doing it in the way that looks like it's humungous. I think they just need to find something that feels really close to their heart if they want to do that and run into that and just do it in the most authentic way.
There's so many ways I know with me I have like online courses and online workshops and life workshops and always there'll be three seats in there that a charity or not for profit or or people that can't necessarily afford it right now. So there's all sorts of ways to give back. And I love that you you didn't let oh, we're going to do this big thing getting in the way of actually just taking some action.
Laurinda: Yeah. And I definitely like what Fatuma said about us rethinking our initial strategy and also just thinking what would be sustainable. Our first idea was to give school packs to as many children as we could through the sales of through our garments. And then when I went to deliver the packs, it was just really disheartening because there were thousands of children at school. So to watch all the other kids get left out that didn't get the supplies that we would have wanted them to. It really also helped us just to kind of look real, you know, just to go back and recalibrate, so to speak. And just to rethink what our next strategy would be. And the fact that we get to help support this young girl, Juliana, through school and whether or not Collective Closets is viable if things through the pandemic don't work out, essentially, Fatuma and I would still continue to help support her and that wouldn't stop. And that's important for us.
So you've championed in your model selection in the wide range of women that you feature on your blog. And you've talked about before that the latest Collective Conversations. There's such a diversity, not even just in, you know, what they look like or anything like that. But in terms of like you had scientists on there, it's just diverse. And you also had diversity in the size of models that you work with and, of course, skin colour. Is this something that was intentional or is it just natural for you? Is it just we don't even think about it? Cause that's just how we roll. How is that sort of played out for you?
Laurinda: I think it's it's been a bit of both. I'd say it's been almost a 50/50, whether it was intentional in the sense that for two black girls to be making clothes that, you know, that are African in their textiles, so we wanted to make sure that the women that were going to be able to buy the clothes felt included. So if you go way back into our really first collection, we use true models and that was intentional. So we used Emily, who is like this beautiful Australian girl that is white. And then we had Debo, who is an African girl. So we wanted from the get go and this is where we say it was intentional. We wanted to just make sure that everybody knew that if you were going to buy our Collective Closet, this was going to be a space for you where you were going to be included. We're going to do the best that we could to try and include, you know, catalogue, age, size, the best way that when you have from the beginning. And then it was also natural for us because this is just guess with Freddie and I like who we surround ourselves with. So the women in our lives and our friends and our family and the workspaces that we've been in, we were able, I guess, from the like from very early on to have that real understanding that I think in order to have a social cause is so personal, you know what I mean? And the idea of us just making it only for this type of woman or this type of an ethnicity, it just wouldn't work for us because it's not who we are. So we're very much, like our circle of friends, I just look so diverse. And we've travelled and other things as well. So that just helped, I think, diversify and just open our eyes to do so much more. And I think also living in Melbourne, being such a melting pot of so many beautiful women. Yeah. It was just it made sense for us just to go down that pathway. And it's special for us. And it's something that we embrace wholeheartedly and it's something that's very, very authentic to us. Yeah. We just hope that we'll continue to to be even more inclusive. We've just got some more amazing plans that are in the pipe works, what size ranges and all that sort of stuff. We want to create a space that that you feel good about yourself.
Fatuma: And another thing that we did also was really strong to us was that like we also could see in the fashion industry a bit of a deficit in how black women are represented. It was really exciting for us to be able to depict to them in the way that we knew other black women in our lives, in our circles, wer’e honoured to be represented. So we were like it was kind of a good opportunity for us to look at, you know, “all right, we want to be inclusive.” But when we are going to include everyone, we want to make sure that they are the best of who they are and that models come on out, too. And we would champion them and they would feel like they weren't a token, like, “oh, we’ll just have another black girl.” They’ll be like, “I feel really amazing and sexy and strong.” What we're doing that was really important for us to like, you know, we weren't trying to change the standards because we were trying to get people to see it from a different kind of point of view. They can just be hanging out.
What advice would you give maybe to someone who's listening to this who is maybe running a fashion label and is white and hasn't for whatever reason been aware that they're not actually being that diverse? Is there kind of a step because I guess if you're a white, you're running a fashion label and you realise right now “I’ve been an idiot and I have not been doing this at all.” What advice would you give? Because definitely we want to see diversity, but we also don't want to see tokenism?
Laurinda: No, definitely not. And I think that there's some much obviously impact with this with just that question alone. But if you are a brand that is listening, that hasn't thought about diversifying your imagery or diversifying the woman or the people that are literally essentially around the corner or are really the representative of our community, then you really need to have a heart-to-heart conversation with yourself first and foremost. I think a lot of it just really comes back to you as a person because you are the person that's running your branch and for it not to be PR tokenistic, I think you need to have a conversation with yourself. You need to be honest. But then also then start doing the homework in order for it to just really be a place and a space that you want to to be inclusive. So it's never too late, you know what I mean? It's never too late. There's no reason why you can't start tomorrow. So have a little think about who your models are going to be, who your casting, but also have a real think about who do what. Also being part of your brand. For me, when brands don't include women that look like myself full of a particular size. Me, you were telling me that “ Look, I shouldn’t be buying your stuff, otherwise I shouldn't be purchasing into buying into your product.” So I would most likely steer away from that. So I think just having an authentic conversation with yourself as the founder of the business. If you've got more than one person, I think it's about time you got your team together. And I think a lot of the time when you've got a really big team and you start talking to people within the team, then you might find that people possibly wanted to put their hand up anyways to say, “hey, I don't we start diversifying our brand.” So that's one aspect of things. And it also has to just be authentic, you know what I mean? It can't be OK. You say tokenistic and just can't be a moment in time. It can't just be because, you know, a particular solo musical hip hop culture dictates that this is what's cool for the moment. You know, black women or people of colour, we don't want to to be represented a platform where it's just cool for the now. So if you're not doing it, like on a stage, like I said, we could talk about it for forever. And also, you don't want it to appear performative. I think you just need to do the homework first before you just go out tomorrow and book a model and be like, oh my God, we need to get a black model. So call somebody and then it just falls short of the mark. So really then sort of what you your attention is, you might even want to put out a disclaimer and say, look, we haven't really been inclusive in the past. You may use black models, but you may only use thin black models. So you might want to think of using limit of just different age groups or women or just different sizes. So I think just having a really authentic conversation with yourself as the founder or the CEO of whoever's writing the business and then talking to your team about how things need to change and how you're going to start, including the greater community. That's what I would say for anyone that's listening. Really just start to think about it and see what's true to you as a brand.
Fatuma: I think about how you think it best represents your brand, because when we talk about clothes, if you don't understand the intent and why you think a black girl would be perfect to represent your brand, you probably shouldn't have one. That's true. Yeah, but it's the truth, because if that person comes like you want, you want the intent of that person that you're investing in, in the face of your brand. There's something for you to be really, really proud of. So I think that it's worth taking the time to understand that and understand how that will make your business sped up and what that will do than just doing it for the sake of it. So I do think that it is in that kind of black thought process, intent and being conscious to understand, because when the girls represent the brands, when you do have someone that is the face of that and these women come to you, you also want them to feel really good in that space. But yes, it wasn't just an ad, was it? It was intentional. You're welcome in our space. We champion you. It's not just one sided.
Laurinda: And I think definitely I like what Fatuma just said, but I think also, if you're going to then make that statement, make sure you if you're going to do it, whoever's looking at your ads or whatever it is that your product isn’t used to see on your social media a different face, don't use that as the catalyst to be, “We tried and we're not going to do it again because we've got a few unfollows.” And I've heard of brands during this before where they’ve tried and then they've had their customers be like, “What the hell is kind of going on?” You need to stand with a conviction. You know what I mean? And if you're going to lose some followers or you are going to lose your customer, if it's come, it's coming, then you need to be prepared to do that. Like Fatuma said, then don't do it. If this is not the pathway that you're going. Oh, it's just not going to now just be an innate thing. It's not going to just be for a campaign. It's not just gonna be for a moment, for a post or just for a particular movement going on. You have to really commit to it. And like you said, it's 2020. So if you're listening and you haven't got with the program, join the program.
And so it's inclusive on so many levels. Black Lives Matter is is is at the forefront at the moment and it keeps coming up in it. Damn right should come out, but it should be at the forefront all the time. But it's also ageism. There's also I believe, you know, we just don't see it. We just don't see enough diversity in in general black even down to, you know, if you sell scarves, why they always just around the neck, you know, rather than as a headscarf or as a hijab, as other ways that a scarf could be used if you're looking at your audience and how they actually use it. And even with age, there's an incredible magazine out of the U.K., but the woman who runs it is in Sydney and it's called Renaissance magazine. And it is all every woman in there is over 40.
Fatuma: And also, I think that, you know, in this moment, I think look like it's such a plus of the we look to have a business right now where it's not even about a location that lie connected because no one can be in a physical location. You can be a global brand. It's even really strategically trying to be that. And so, I mean, as you as you're learning, I was thinking, oh, my God, we want to have that customer and that customer. You can kind of be that you can kind of appeal to a lot. You already are thinking about it yourself to be like staking your way to the U.S. or, you know, or to be thinking about it. Because when you're on Instagram, you're looking at all brands all around the world. You're looking at content that's beautiful from everywhere, from all different types of people.
How have you both coped with motherhood and business? And I should put a disclaimer that I understand people be like, well, you don't men that. But at the start, I really think that it is the woman that a lot of it falls on in caregiving, at least especially if you're breastfeeding and other stuff like that. So how have you both coped running a business while also having very young children?
Laurinda: Oh, goodness. Gosh, I think the good thing is, well, we both had, I think, such different experiences because our business has been at different stages when we've both had our children. So, for instance, when Fatuma had her baby, we didn't have the store. And now we've got my little man and having this store is added another complexity that I think we just couldn't compare for. There's just so much packed with having a store. And then whilst I was on maternity leave from the store, we had two employees that Fatuma was managing. So essentially, I guess, well, as on maternity leave from the business, Fatuma went from having her right hand man, which was my style, to then having to run the business and really everything that was divided is true now, really all on one person. And as much as I really thought that I was still going to be part of the day to day running of the business, having a child has actually blown my mind to go to the amount just it takes from you, like every inch of you is taken every day. And like I said, I could honestly talk about this all day. And I actually don't think it's a bad question to ask because I think it's really important if there women who’ve been at it that are listening, who might be pregnant or might be thinking of having a family. Whatever capacity that looks like for you just got to talk to other women that have been through it, whether it's this stage or another stage, I think it's really good for us. Just to be open about some of the challenges that you might face. I definitely would say just brace yourself. But also just do your best just to enjoy it while you can. So some of the challenges that I found was trying to be, I guess, what I quote unquote, whatever that is, a good mum to my son and trying to enjoy all the moments. But also then I just felt really kind of not that I was left out, but I really felt that I wasn't helping and I really couldn't be part of it. So Fatuma needed emails answered on a Monday. She didn’t need them on a two week’s time So by then, I'll call back and be like, oh, you know, what's happening… […] We're on to the next thing. So that was really difficult for me to kind of feel like I'm going to squares with my priority. I really want to help with the business. But at the end of the day, I'm really not sleeping and I'm not even the best version of myself. So not being the best version of myself, I found myself being really snappy, irritable. And that's not what you want representing your business.
So I found it really, really difficult. And I think we both what we didn't anticipate it for me to have been out. So I was out for a good full five months. To be honest, it took me a really long time to get into my groove. And then it's kind of like just slowly by slowly, I kind of got into a pattern of putting him to sleep. And that was like five months old. He was sleeping really good during the day. He would give me two hours and then I would rest during the day and not really do still much of the business during the day. So I tried to be almost a day hits. I would start doing all my work once I put him to bed at seven thirty at night. It really worked well for me just to be in bed or be in a space where someone wasn't meeting me for a few hours and then I'd work on the emails and then I'll try to be on top of them. And the next day I could have a conversation with Fatuma in the evening about the stuff that happened the day before, I guess. So it's been quite a ride. What about you, Fatuma?
Fatuma: To be honest, I did find it was the total opposite because I kind of did find being a mom a little bit more mundane than I thought it was. […] From the get go, it was really easy for me to find my groove in the business and working. And I mean, we didn't have a physical store and we have like the business was a bit more… It wasn't as busy. So it was easier for me to be able to find my feet in the way that I worked as well. But I definitely, you know, realise that, like those couple, the beginning of we can see was a bit boring. And so I could drown myself. Plus I did have a really good baby. So he made it really easy. Where I could do hours of work and still kind of, you know, crack on basically with what I was doing. I did have some really hard days and I think that was like four months in when I was feeling great and he had a really bad sleep regression. And so then I had to re-prioritise, I guess. But any mother off that, I would just really say that, you know, it's your business. One of the best things about owning a business is that it's yours and that the work day and the work week doesn't have to look like the traditional sense anymore. I mean, they're obviously gonna be key things like supplies between 9:00 to 5:00. There are different things that are going to be prioritised, but outside of that, you can really work on your term in your time. And so, you know, if the day kind of has to shuffle from, I remember, we used to work from 7pm until midnight, that works to me. And I could still get a good chunk of work done once I re-shuffled everything and worked out why am I trying to fit a nine to five job into my 24 hour job. Yeah.
And that's really empowering about owning your own business that you get to kind of set those parameters, understand when the business becomes a lot bigger, you can't do that right now. It's not about what the customers are understanding because they're not gonna be that understanding. So it changes. But when you can, when it's applicable, you can kind of do it at your own.
Laurinda: Yeah. I like the fact that for two months at end of the day, wait, yes, we are sisters, but we also two very different people. And I mean, we still have both very strong, very good work ethic. But I just remember not long after Fatuma had a baby, she's still in the house left like day three. And I was obviously doing all the running. And she would be like, OK, so briefly, what's happening? And I'm like, What? Yeah, I want to know. Look, you know, Caitlyn had bought a top of you would like. Have you done all the returns for that? I've done this now. Jesus Christ. I remember telling her, I said, when I do have my child, I will not be like this. Could she just not that she I don't want to paint a picture of glamour that she just bounced back, but she genuinely want to see Fiona for her like her. And all those activities would be basically going to the post office. You know what I mean? So they didn't live very far from the post office and they would pack all the orders and she would she would do all the running. So she still ran that aspect of the business. She still packed all the orders in whatever time. I don't know when she was packing these orders. I didn’t ask. But at the end of the day they got delivered to the customers. And I was happy with that. So, yeah, I think your baby may also just kind of give you a few allowances. We have two different boys as well. So you're right, we're going through two different phases at the moment. So, it's just make of it what you will. So don't put too much pressure on it. It's your own business.
What or who has helped you with the juggle of not just necessarily motherhood, but just a juggle of business in general, like are there tools or podcasts or people or books you'd recommend to other people listening who are running a small business or potentially, you know, running a small business while juggling a baby or they're pregnant or even just homeschooling young kids. And it can be dads, too. Or other parents who aren’t necessarily mums.
Laurinda: We've had quite a really I think I just it always blows my mind. Just I think as far as people goes, just how blessed I think we've been over the last six years just to have built a small community of just other amazing women that have their own businesses that have always been really transparent and really helpful to just kind of help elevate us. And Fiona, you've definitely and I don't want to sound cheesy to us, but you have you've been really just from the get go of how we met. It's just been really like just authentic. I can just say that your passion about what you do and then just being able to to help us. So that's been really amazing as far as tools go. I know this sounds like such a basic tool, but for us, WhatsApp has been a huge tool. I know it sounds really small, but it's just something. So we. Just quickly take a quick photo talked essentially for myself, being the one that you know, is the one talking to our team in Kenya. So that for me is something that I use absolutely every single day. […] So it's quick as well for me. It's on the guard enough to log on to e-mails and whatnot. Also something like Planoly. I remember sitting down with me last year and having a think about our content and how I guess one of the barriers for us was finding time to be able to sit down and do a post. We've got another one that we use just for the girls in store to be able to keep us updated through the day to day running of the store was from tomorrow and I are running errands. So with myself and WhatsApp, it's really the quickest, fastest way that I'm able to to have conversations with our team and in Nairobi, Kenya. So just before we got to the having a chat with you, Fiona, I was able to ask Omar what's happening with our goods. And he was able to give me a really quick run-through of what's happening and I guess being on the go as well with the baby, I find that really easy. There's also the one that I absolutely love and one that we used quite often. And this was a little tip from you Fiona and it was Planoly, so it was a really good tool that we used for scheduling our social media. So Instagram. […] To take on that load, it just helps you sketch, blog your posts. If you wanted to be like a day or a week or a month in it, that you can sit and work on it for a day and then it will schedule at your posts. They've been the biggest tools are I say it with more responsibilities within the business I find really helpful.
Fatuma: Yeah. I mean, there's lots of other ones like, you know, I'm I'm a big Excel kind of girl because I do all the production stuff and even though I'm not lack of it, I can do a bit look up. It's still a lot to know that I'm not like a whiz kid, but I can do the basics. I think Laurinda and Isabella and they're very visual people. So Dropbox has been like a big thing, even without just a mood boards and really getting other people to understand what the feel and tone of what we're doing is to be able to share images. It's been really big for me. I'm a good listener. I think that I love to hear about businesses and what people are doing. So I'd be glad to Second Life. I love that every week I'm like, why hasn't risen except dessert? And even like a new podcast, I've been listening to Cole Partners and it makes a lot of sense. And I even though we are sisters and we get along, you know, we're still trying to fix that, working together, sometimes assisted in partners and then listening to this podcast about people, how they work together, the difficulties and, you know, elevating your business through a joint partnership is always really interesting for me. But also, like, you know, getting your emails on a Sunday. Well, I'm not saying this is good, but the other day, I mean, like, you know, and I've been lucky to have a lot of resources. We've had really great mentor. We did they we've done some mental shapes and then left the Australian. What is it? The Australian Fashion Council. We did the mentoring program for emerging designers, and it's great to be able to go, oh, my God, I've got a problem. Are we the only one that hasn't? Why are we there? Anyone? And just look at all of these kind of tools and information that kind of sometimes and I've been thinking about it, you can imagine you're like, what are you doing with your social media? And I'm like, what are we doing with your social media? What is your customer wanting? You like, what is my customer wanting? Oh, it's tricky. Sometimes you can get lost in all of that all the things that need to happen. And sometimes you can kind of easily lose sight of why you started and what your call ethos and how you want to run it. And so if you've always got these people and a team and, you know, inspiration, you can always hone in and always ask yourself when you're having these difficult times is but what? Why did we start this? And it's easy when you have all these, like, you know, places to go. And it's not easy to build up but there all day. Like, literally, even though on to the small business, Victoria, when Covid happened, resource. I didn't even know it was, which, you know, I have a social thing that I was like, oh, my God, what's available? Who else is in this predicament? What can I do to make our store safe? And customers feel like that space is great. And was this a small thing that someone sent me and it really kind of was able to steer us in the right direction. So, yeah, all the people that you took, like anyone that you feel is really inspiring, you should definitely like email them. And even if it's just a fan, go email or, you know, or just a coffee. I think it's good to have that those resources available.
But have you done any kind of courses on even like bookkeeping or anything else you've had to do for the business?
Fatuma: Well originally when we started the business, we thought it was going to be really like something that we wanted to do. I actually did do a small business course. And to be honest, like I've used like 10 percent of it. But what it did give me because I wanted to make sure that what we were doing, all my understanding, I do have a business degree like as well to buffer that up. But like I think sometimes those big degrees, you you find it hard to understand it in a small business running when you're doing everything. So I did this small business course to kind of just get me to understand what I was really signing myself up for. And there were lots of things that I found really, really useful. But then also, like in that kind of setting, there are so many of them, like apps, like zero or quick books that kind of did or help in not being. But also a really good accountant is really where you want to be, you know what I mean? So I think that, you know, I think that it's really good to understand what you're getting yourself into and it's good to have a grasp of, you know, what it takes to run a business. You know, there's lots of mistakes that we've made is because we didn't kind of follow the fundamentals in a plus, because if we looked at the fundamentals, we probably wouldn’t have started the business. It's like all you have to get cash flow and bring in that and pay for that now would have been like, oh, when we can't do that. And so I think it's good to know. And does it go to when you get to a certain level, understand that that needs to be a priority? And that's why it was really good to kind of sit with you and have lots of sessions where we understood, okay, we actually want to be a viable business. What's our calendar looking like? What are we doing in September? And to understand how to keep the engine going. So I think those other things that are crucial, not at the start, I don't think necessarily need to be thought of, you know, two or three years in.
Laurinda: Definitely. And I think also having someone like so when you talk about mentorships, and I think she'll probably blush a little bit. But having someone like Karen from […] We met her as these two, you know, sisters with a little hobby, you know, with this business And we remember how we met her, but we got in touch with Karen and literally for six. But the last six years. We interact with her still. And we kind of look at her, look at the biggest sister who's running such a successful business. And she's just been so open with us. And she's someone that we feel really comfortable with ringy with a problem. And she was you know, she just kind of checking or to stopping store or just kind of ask us what's going on. And for someone to be able to just before the store a pinch was like, I want you girls to come in. So we're going to sit down to crunch the numbers. And I remember her just sitting there with me so patient and literally going, OK, if you want your store to be viable, this is what you need. These are numbers you need to crunch. So she helped us just cut some really just just general numbers and went away with Fatuma, we both sat down. Not a lot of people give you that information. You know what I mean? And Fatuma and I are always really big on paying it forward. So if you were business with me, you know, I don't hold all that information to yourself. Just try help out as much as you can. You might not necessarily give him all the nitty gritty of your business, but I think just things surrounding us, all the people that can just point you in the right direction and they feel really like happy to help. Yeah, we always try to talk. We do that with other people's also you. Karen's been absolutely amazing.
You are six years in. And like you said, you've had highs, you've had lows, you had challenges, you've overcome things. But if you will, looking back, what's one thing that you would have done differently if you were starting out now?
Laurinda: Oh, goodness. We talked about this earlier and I set for myself. I think that our approach we would have said I think I would have said, let's sit down and just admit our roles earlier. I think it would have just saved us a lot of time and a lot of heartache and tears, you know what I mean? It's not that you want to micromanage your partner that you work with. I think I think by sitting down and going, what do you think your strengths are? This is what I think my strengths are, how that we just sit down and give you those responsibilities. And I think because before that, a lot of the lines were be blurred. So when things kind of fell apart or someone didn't do something, having those lines to be blurred, which is amount to a bit of it. “But you said you were gonna do what you said you're gonna do that.” Whereas now it's like, well, I didn't do that because I know that I was responsible for that. And we've been lucky to still be the best of friends, you know, six years on. But I think just knowing what we've been through and all those ups and downs, I would have said, let's sit down earlier and I did love just drawing a line in the sand as far as boundary. So knowing when we do clock off because a lot of people maybe they notice so they wouldn't have but Fatuma and I really talk about our business honestly 24/7, but there's not a day where we don't. And I know it's just part of having a small business, but sometimes it can just be a lot. But there's no days off. You getting phone calls? We're at midnight talking eleven o'clock a good in the morning, seven o'clock, six o'clock. And sometimes you just got to say, you know what, we're actually going to have a day off. We're, you know, on Sunday, some Sunday. Now, we I don't talk about the business unless the shop is burning. That's the only time I want to be contracted and for the Fatuma on Monday. So I also know that that's just her time where she gets to come with her family after a very long time lag. And what I'm not sure their time with the family. So I should be calling her about something that can wait for Tuesday. So maybe that's the conversation that I will. Yeah, that's what I wanted you differently.
Fatuma: Yeah, we'll all be different of a life. I think that we needed to have those ups and downs to the correct. I think more about what you were talking about is maybe you are outsourcing and looking at like tries to do everything yourself when, you know, you don't have an accounting degree. Like, how are you going to get it? Yes, you can help me help you, but like you don't know, tax what you still tax. So I think maybe me is more about, you know, outsourcing when you can, because I think that we live in a really amazing business world at the moment is you don't need to have 40 staff. Yeah. Really good freelancers, people that you can connect with to kind of get your business to that next level without having to, like, sell your home for that, you know, and understanding when it is a good time to bring someone else in and say, you know what? This is why we're fighting about this. We don't have the expertise. Why don't we talk to this person? Why don't we do that? I think that is anything I would do differently.
Oh, I totally agree with both of those things. And if you are listening to websites that I think you should cheque out, based on what Laurinburg Fatuma have said is the first one is 16personalities.com. And that's a personality type quiz. It's one that I often give clients or in my workshops with people because of that exact thing. So even if you don't have a partnership as such like YouTube, I you might do like collaboration's. And I did a collaboration, many collaborations with one particular business friend who I'm still friends with. I still hugely respect and admire. But we got to the end of the first thing that we'd worked months on together and we'll both kind of annoyed at each other. And it was not in an angry way, but it was sort of like, oh, well, I would have I would've thought that way. And it's like I would have thought X and I think Y kind of thing. And so we actually did a personality test and we just built differently, like, you know, we just motivated by different things. And so we hadn't done that before working together. And I think now that we know that about each show, that we were able to then collaborate on other things and be like, that's how you're going to approach it. And this is how I'm going to approach it. And also, we were able to be much more clear. What do you want out of this? Like, what's your personal objective and what's mine? And let's get those on the table so that neither one of us feels like the other one is doing them. I love kind of the same personalities as the first one. And then exactly what you said about outsourcing and the website. Upwork. That's really good for that is athletic. It's a it's a website where you can find freelancers all around the world and you can literally put in. So this is where I found my virtual assistance, most of the three out of the four. And you can put in like I have my businesses run on Squarespace and Kajabi. And so you can put it must have Squarespace and Kajabi knowledge. And so you can literally find the right person. You can interview them. And also, it's like, you know, it's like a reviews Web site. So you can see how many jobs they've done, how much they've. And you can see literal testimonials from people. And you can actually contact those people as well to be like, did they do this? What would they like? So it's a really good tool because I definitely think as soon as you can afford to outsource, you should outsource everything and even a 100 percent.
Fatuma: I think that a lot of people were under the impression that it cost a lot to outsource. You brought in this Web site. I haven't used it myself, but it is about finding someone that, you know, maybe you look at it and you work out what they worth is because at the end of the day, it's one of those things that you could be up all night trying to learn one thing both to someone and they could do it in 20 minutes. And, you know, one of them takes a lot of energy and gets you did it at the end. But even then, did you do it to the like the best the most effective way? And so if you have a chance to start to have those conversations with people, you are going to be better for it. And you're also going to have you're going to put your energy in the areas that you're both best well suited for.
What is next for Collective Closets? Like, where can people connect with you and what's next?
Fatuma: Like I said, I think that the last two months, three months has been a bit of a whirlwind for us. And it's kind of like opened up the doors to like all the possibilities. So we really were so excited to know we're starting a new collection that kind of drops in November about all the ways we can connect with customers. I mean, the world's a bit crazy at the moment, but like, you know, we've loved doing collective conversations. We talk about doing that in-store and having people in there doing people workshops. And obviously when time permits and obviously when the environment changes with COVID. But through this and understanding what, through this slight break, we've kind of understood what people want from us and what we're excited to do and how to connect with our customers. So we've probably the opposite where we've like, oh, my God, don't do this and not miss the move once lockdown ends. I think that that's a really nice position to be in to understand that, you know, there's a value when you really connect with the customers. And, you know, when people value what we're saying, it's really empowering. So for us, definitely. Yep. I think that when people sign up to our newsletter, they'll see a lot of different initiatives coming through. There'll be workshops in the future, obviously, and different talks that we can get to. But also just looking at clicks, it clicks of conversations and, you know, opening your eyes to other artists and other powerful women in business is also really exciting for us, just putting other people on a platform that are doing really amazing things. So I think that that's for us. I think that that will take us to the end of the year. And then hopefully after that, it's just like world domination.
Fiona on General Assembly:
General Assembly is amazing and they're all over the world and they do a lot of free sessions as well. So, you know, if people are like, well, I can't afford a class or I haven't started my business or I'm not making a huge amount of profit, they do an amazing amount of free business sessions. They do panels and then they do some paid ones. And the ones that I've taught, you know, they might be like 30 bucks for an evening session or one hundred and eighty for a full day all day workshops. They definitely want to check out. And like I said, they all over the world. So I'll definitely put General Assembly in the show notes so you can look at the URL for that.
So people can connect with you. And like you said, they can sign up to your newsletter. And that's just at collectivecloset.com. And then on Instagram, which you guys are on all the time. It's more so Laurinda. Is that right? I'm always messaging you guys and then I'm like, oh, I'm talking to. Talking to. But it's Laurinda most of the time. And that's @collectiveclosets.
And you'll most likely get me like any other kind of parting words that you want to leave people with.
Laurinda: So any kind of last minute, the last bits of advice, the model, we just don't be scared to get started. I think for when I took a really long time to get really warmed up into just thinking of our business, less of a hobby and more of just a business. I think if you just go in with that really strong mindset and just get not to be deterred. And sometimes it's you can get easily intimidated by others in that space. So I think if you're just passionate about what you do and that sounds really cheesy, but also if you're just really passionate about what you do. And I think if you could just believe in your product and I think Fatuma and I, I personally think that we've just done a good job of just staying out in line and just doing the best that we can. And yeah, I think that's the advice I've got to stay on the line.
Fatuma: Yeah, you don’t have to do everything at once perfectly. We’re sort of getting our packaging right. And we're OK with that because the rest of the stuff that we're doing, we think is amazing. And so once we get our packaging 100 percent perfect, then we're going to be like we're going to feel so much better. But as well as we know that the product itself stands for itself and like the packaging is obviously something important. But right now, that's not where our focus is. It's about really creating an amazing dress or a pair of pants. We've been so really happy. And then that comes a little bit later. So you don't have to do everything right now. You can just do the best that you can. And the thing that you do that you want to focus on do really well and always know that, like what you're working toward. So we know that our packaging is like a so we're not sitting here like, oh, have you seen our packaging? We know that that's something that was a work in progress. But we know that once we can address it, it's going to be amazing. So that's my advice. You didn't have to do everything because I think that sometimes people get lost in this and things are doing in your list of starting a business. And you know way we were that is this is our budget, this is where we're going to stay and what we're going to focus on put all of our money in and then the rest of it will come as it comes. And we'll always strive for improvement. That's where our goal is there also.
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