Episode 250: Trusting your analytical mind and intuition to come up with a Unique Selling Point with Roxy Ryan of Hardie Grant Books
The best relationship and the best books come from proper collaborations between the authors and the publishers. In today's episode, Fiona chats with Roxy Ryan, the managing director of Melbourne at Hardie Grant Books, which is part of Hardie Grant Publishing. Tune in!
Topics discussed in this episode:
Introduction
Book publishing & first time authors
About Hardie Grant Books
On working with new authors
Judging the book by it's cover
How to know what will sell?
Achievements of Hardie Grant Books
What's next for Roxy and Hardie Grant Books?
Conclusion
Get in touch with My Daily Business Coach
Resources and Recommendations mentioned in this episode:
Josh Niland
Lauren McDougal
Cook - Karen Martini's Book
The best relationship and the best books come from proper collaborations between the authors and the publishers, where the publishers really respect where the author is coming from and what their knowledge is, and vice versa. The publisher feels that they're being listened to as well. Because it does happen sometimes that people say, “No, my audience won't want that.” I hate that. I don't want to do it. But often a publisher will know what they're talking about because they've run into something like this in the past.
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Welcome to episode 250. I feel like I should have confetti and balloons going off around me, balloons going off, maybe cannons going off, or some sort of Beyonce fun song. But alas, I have this episode which is equally as fun and unique and insightful and just encouraging as those things would be. Today it is an interview with not a small business owner, with somebody very different, but somebody who can really make or break the dreams of a small business owner. Before we get stuck into that elusive guest interview, I want to of course acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians of the beautiful lands, which I get to meet these guests and interview them for this podcast. And that is the Wurrung and Wurundjeri people of the Kulin nation. And I pay my respects to their elders, past, present, and emerging, and acknowledge that sovereignty has never been ceded.
Today, it is usually what we'd call a small business interview. However, this is an interview with a different type of guest, but somebody that I know is going to just shed so much light on how to do something in your business that I know a lot of people want to do. Without any further ado, who am I talking about? I'm talking about the fabulous. She also has a very fabulous name, by the way, Roxy Ryan, who is the managing director of Melbourne at Hardie Grant Books, which is part of Hardie Grant Publishing. Now, Roxy has worked at Hardie Grant for 15 years. I know Massive. Started as marketing manager, became marketing director, then became managing director, and has been in that role as managing director for Melbourne Hardie Grant Books for six years. I have to say that, she has probably been responsible for saying yes or no to so many books and so many authors.
Roxy was actually the person who said yes to my book and was the first person that I met who had looked at my book proposal. I have to say, I was absolutely petrified when I was meeting her. I remember exactly what I was wearing because I was like, what if I sweat? I was so nervous because I had so much writing on this. It has been a lifelong dream to publish a book under my own name. I have actually ghostwritten books for celebrities. I will say that in inverted coms. But yes, that used to be one of my job ghostwriting books. It was not for Hardie Grant Publishing, it was for other publishers. I signed massive NDAs. I cannot talk about those things. However, it has been a dream to have a book of mine in a bookshop that had Fiona Killackey as the author.
Roxy was the person who helped me make that dream come true with my first book, Passion Purpose Profit, Sidestep Hustle, and Build a Business you love, which is out through Hardie Grant Books. I asked Roxie, who is currently on maternity leave with her beautiful children, I asked her to come on before she went on maternity leave and talk about what it takes to become an author. Now, I know that a lot of small businesses want to create a book, and what I'm talking about is nonfiction books, which is very much what Hardie Grant is known for. These incredible biographies, these incredible how-tos, these guys, these cookbooks. I mean, they are always winning awards for incredible design, which is partly one of the reasons that I went with them. And just really good books. If you go into their beautiful offices in Melbourne, which is actually right next to where I used to work, and I'd like to look at their offices and be like, “I wish I had a book out by them one day.”
Now I do. But they have just the most, the coolest looking books, just such a good eye for design, but also great content as well. I work with a lot of small business owners who are interior designers, architects, landscape designers, ceramicists, furniture makers, lighting designers, graphic designers, artists, letterpress, printers, and so many more fashion lifestyle people who have their own shops, and who have run multiple shops. So many different types of people. I'm so blessed. I have death doulas, I mean, all sorts of creative, interesting people, people in psychology, and lots of people dream of creating their own book. It comes up in conversations with people from all businesses and industries Hardie Grant and one of the publishers that create those books for nonfiction, which is generally where these big books will fall into from these different businesses.
I asked Roxy a while ago, as you have made my dreams come true with my book, could you come on and talk about what you're looking for from a book publisher's perspective and what is the process? Because I think a lot of people don't understand the process. I actually studied publishing and I worked for a book publisher, I understand it takes a long time when, and I go through this in today's chat, I signed, I got my contract in April 2019, I signed it, we both back and forth in July of that year. I wrote the book from July to November and then the book only came out in September, almost a year later. It takes a long time. It's not like you're going to get a book deal and get a book out in the next few months.
I think people don't really totally understand that. They also don't understand the team that is involved and why people will say, “But you're only getting this percentage from every book sold.” But I'm also not paying for the copywriters, the editors, the graphic designers, the typesetters, the printing, the frights, the customs, the getting it into every single shop, the marketing. I love going with a traditional publisher because of all of those things. If I was to pay for that stuff myself, it would just be massive. This is why I think you see a lot of self-published books either don't look that great or aren't typeset beautifully, or they come out and then you see them for 99% on Amazon or for free shipping, not free shipping, pay for shipping, don't pay for the book kind of thing.
Just to get the book out there. In today's chat, we talk about what's the difference between self-publishing and traditional publishing. What kinds of things do you get with each? What are the pros and cons? And then things like design, How do Roxy and the team at Hardie Grant understand what will sell from a design perspective? Because we all do judge books by their covers, Let's just be real. They're incredible at design. I know that my book was a finalist for the Australian Book Design Awards, and that is from the great designer that they chose Andy Warren, who designed Passion Purpose Profit. What are they looking for? What are they trying to create? How do they know if something will sell? What is the process like? And so many other things. Roxy Ryan is my guest from Hardie Grant Books. She's absolutely incredible, such a lovely, approachable person, but also really knows her stuff, and has been in publishing for many years. It was my absolute, absolute honor to have her on the podcast. And I know that lots of, you'll be listening, taking a bunch of notes, and perhaps feeling less scared and more enthusiastic about getting your own book out there. Here it is, my interview with the incredible Roxy Ryan of Hardie Grant Publishing.
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Hello Roxy, welcome to the podcast.
Thank you, Fiona. It's so nice to be here.
It's so nice to be chatting with you. I know just before we hit record, I was like, this is gonna get so many responses on this topic and I'm so excited to have you on. But how are you and where are you coming to us from?
I am coming to you from my house in Inner Melbourne, and I'm very well thank you. I've worked four days a week, this is my day at home with the kids who are either asleep or taken out by my mom. Apologies for any interruptions that may happen along the way. But I am so happy to be talking about the publishing industry with you. It's a bit of an opaque industry, it's really great to get sort of a bit more information out there.
I'm super excited and thank you for saying yes to coming on and go your mom for coming and helping
Always.
As you mentioned today it's a bit different because we're, we usually chat with people who own a small business, but today we're talking to somebody who can literally make or break your small business owner's dreams of having a book published. And that is Roxy Ryan, and you're the managing director of Hardie Grant Books Melbourne. For anyone who hasn't heard of Hardie Grant, what is it? Cause I know Hardie Grant has numerous arms as a company.
We're sort of a complex entity in a way. Hardie Grant, the overarching business is a global media and publishing business. And it has a book publishing marketing business and a director-to-consumer arm, which focuses on digital and events. I work in the book publishing arm, which has seven businesses across the world, which are in Australia, London, and San Francisco. The company that I run so Hardie Grant Books in Melbourne specializes in non-fiction. Memoirs, current affairs, personal development, design, lifestyle, food, and fashion, are basically our key genres.
Amazing. And within that also the business.
We don't actually do that many business books, it was a testament to how excellent your book was that we decided to take it on.
Thank you so much. On that note, you, like you just mentioned, you changed my life, Roxy, because honestly, you were the first person to say yes to my first book. Thank you. I thought today we could chat about what it really takes to get a book published and all the kind of insider intel that you have. Somebody like you who's ultimately making the decision about whether or not to take on the book. Like I think, and we were talking about it before we hit record, there are so many people who don't know about book publishing and I would love to just go back in time a little bit because you've been in this industry for a long time and I'm just wondering how do you think book publishing has changed in terms of first-time authors or more creative or design books becoming the norm in the non-fiction space? As in it just seems like more of them are coming out. Have you noticed that as a trend?
We definitely have noticed that as a trend. We have always been in that world, when Hardie Grant first started, there was a big focus on what, what we would call illustrated books. So doesn't mean drawings necessarily, but photographs, cookbooks, illustrated books basically. We have always been in that space, but it's certainly become more competitive over the years and there has been a huge amount of change in the industry generally. I think the industry's really grown up a lot. It's become a lot more global and in terms of trends, I think you're right that there is a real trend for that design book I suppose you would call it in whatever way that works. The aesthetics of the book really being really important. And a big part of that I think is social media, Instagram, people are a lot more engaged with the aesthetics of things than they have been in the past.
Before we get into how to pitch, I hear this all the time from people, “I'd love to write a book.” I just have no idea where to even start. I'd love your opinion on why somebody should want to write a book or get a book published, especially a small business owner. I know so many people see these big authors and they think, “I could write a book and I can become famous” or I can see the cash just rolling my way and I could retire else book sales. And for most authors, that is just not necessarily the objective and it's not also the case. I worked in book publishing and I'd studied book publishing and I often say to those people “It's a bestseller if it hits 5,000 copies” and if you are only getting a dollar pickup, it's not this quick get-rich scheme. I'd love to know from your perspective as an expert, what are the pros and cons of getting a book published as a small business owner?
That is a really good question. The first thing I would say is that in terms of a get-rich-quick situation, it is neither quick nor you are also unlikely to get rich. If you're thinking I'll just quickly run off a book and I'll make 40 to $50,000. I don't want to downgrade publishing, and for people to think that you can't make money, you certainly can make money, but in the scheme of things, you are unlikely to be quitting your day job if you publish a book. It's not to say that you can't make good money from it, but volume can be really hard to come by and it can be tough for everyone to make a dollar in publishing because there are so many people involved in the process as you go through it.
That means that your book is wonderful and it's one of the really great things about polishing is all the different people that you get to interact with that I get to work with and that the team gets to work with. We work with really wonderful freelancers and creators from all over the world. But it does mean that it's not a simple process in terms of why you might want to do it outside of retiring from your day job. A brand is a really big one. And that's a big one that we talk about with a lot of our authors, particularly for business owners. When I say business owners, we publish books from all the way from people like you Fiona, and Josh Niland, who runs Saint Peter in Sydney, he's a business owner too. Karen Martini is a business owner and all of these different people run businesses of different sizes a book is a real call and card for them to showcase what they do and to put something on the page to have it out there in the world particularly because we're a global business and wherever possible, we really love to be able to sell books all over the world. I think that that can be really positive for business owners, particularly ones that do want to have a footprint around the world. It's a great selling tool. It positions you as an expert and it gives you really great exposure in terms of, Do you want me to talk about the cons?
Yes. Because I think they're not talked about enough.
I mean the cons are, it's a lot of work. It's the writing, the manuscript is only the start of that. And that's a huge amount of work in itself. We have authors who have been working on their manuscripts for years because we specialize, I should say that Hardie Grant is an independent book publisher and we specialize in nonfiction. Hardie Grant Books specializes in nonfiction. We have a sister company out of Sydney and they do fiction, but we specialize in nonfiction and have done that for a very long time. We're, Australia's second-largest book publisher in our books are sold all over the world. That part of it means that we work with authors who generally aren't professional writers.
It's not their full career that they only write, they'll have all sorts of businesses that are their day jobs. People can have been working on a manuscript for years or book ideas for years. There's a lot of writing on it. It's a huge amount of work to write that in terms of pro, it's a huge amount of work to get the book made throughout the process. It's probably years of work once you have submitted that manuscript, particularly if it's an illustrated book of working with your publisher, your editor, a designer, a proofread, a copy editor, a typesetter, all of these different people that come into the process. It can take a really long time, it can be a lot of work and you do have to keep promoting it as well.
It's not a sort of two-week process and you're done. Particularly for non-fiction books, the long tail of sales can be huge for design and business books as well. We have a person in our marketing team who really specializes in SEO and keywords. We work very closely with digital marketing teams that specialize in Amazon out of the UK and the US particularly. Because we have multiple books that have, can sell more in their subsequent second, third, fourth, and fifth years than they do in their first year. If you can get to that valuable algorithm. You do have to keep working at it and you have to partner with your publisher to do that as well. The other thing, it's a really big market out there. There's lots and lots of competition and this may sound bleak, but there's no guarantee that the book will do what your publisher or you thought it necessarily doesn't take away from it is great for you, great for your brand positioning you as an expert. All of those things that we've talked about before. But there are no guarantees about any of it. A lot of it is speculative.
So many things within that.
So many things going on every time we publish a book.
I remember it wasn't even that long ago. I was on YouTube and a video came up from Oprah and Gary Zukav, I think he was talking about, I can't remember this is what he was saying, or maybe it was a different author, but he was saying how he'd put this book out and like it hadn't had the sales and then Oprah picked up a book, 10 years later and it suddenly went crazy. I think that's also just happened during the pandemic, but one of the books about the Body Keeps Score or maybe it was the Gary book or some other book where it had been around, but suddenly, the whole world was going through trauma and so they were all starting to read this book again. I totally agree that nonfiction can come back up in waves as well.
Exactly. We publish all sorts of books at Hardie Grant. From Malcolm Turnbull's book to current affairs, politics, cookbooks, that sort of thing. Obviously, Malcolm Turnbull's autobiography, that's a huge big upfront bestseller and you've got to get the runs on the board. A lot of the other books that we publish, we don't necessarily publish to get to instant bestseller status in the first three, or four months of what they do. We know that the long tail is really important, but that can be more work. I think it's really important for people to understand, one of our best-selling authors, Natalie Walton, who does beautiful interior books, understands her audience so well and that's really crucial in what we do. But we know with Natalie's books, she sold more in the subsequent five years from publishing her books than she has in the first year and they just keep going and going and going basically. You do have to play the long game with books as well.
Completely. I see that a bit with, and I'm not trying to bag out self-publishing and I've done a whole episode on like self-publishing versus traditional publishing or publishing with the publisher. But I do see people that have done self-publishing and they've expected it to go skyrocketing. And then they're left with thousands of copies of books because they had to buy so many to get them cheaper and then doing things like free shipping or you just pay shipping just to get the book out there. Because there hasn't been this concept of like, it might take a while because I think where people see, get onto the New York Times best-seller list and it's like, “That's attainable for everyone.” I think it's a really important point. You touched on the process and how it can be really long and years.
Can I just interrupt quickly? Just say on that point as well, on the self-publishing point, because I'm sure that that would be quite relevant for lots of your listeners. There's definitely a place for that and obviously, I work in publishing companies, I'm going to advocate for being professionally published, but it can be financially really tough to publish self-publish a book, and as you say, there's stock sitting in your bedroom or in your garage or wherever it might be. And to not have other people to help take care of that and also to help you financially work with that is a huge bonus as well because so much of it is speculative.
Yes and that's the thing when I've talked to some people about publishing, I'm like, “Well, the publisher is taking a huge amount of risk.” Like they're the ones that pay the designer, pay the copy editor, pay the person, everyone gets paid and then you get your advance. But if you had to do it yourself, it's tens and tens of thousands, if not more, depending on what type of book you're trying to do. You mentioned the process and how long it is, I feel like this is something where I feel like we need to have like a big hammer or something saying debunking myths on this podcast, but one of the things that I think comes up is that people think it's a really quick or super simple process. I wanted to know how you define the process from someone having an idea to pitching you, to meeting you, to all the things that need to happen before it's actually bought by someone in a bookshop. And then, as you said, then there's a whole marketing part that needs to happen to sell.
I don't want to sound so negative, and I don't want to put people off, but the process can be long, in terms of having an idea for a book to getting a book in the bookshop. But in short, you come up with your pitch or your idea, you put together a pitch and we can talk a little bit later about what that might be. Whichever publisher you're in contact with will take it to an acquisitions meeting, which is where the broader part of the business talks together about what they think the book could do. Do they want to take it on? There'll be lots of back and forth about it, we loved this part about it, but we want to change this. Would you consider doing this? And getting down to the detail, let’s say you want it to be a $40 hardback, we think it'd be better at a $9.95 Flexi book.
You do talk about that sort of stuff as well. And that can change along the process too. You work really closely with your publisher. If the book gets taken on it then basically goes into working closely with your publisher and your editor and the editorial department will start to work with you. You go away, if you have a manuscript, you hand it over. If you are now going off to write your manuscript, that's what you go off and do and your publisher and your editor will check in with you along the way to see how you're going, what you're doing, you'll have questions and that sort of thing. It then goes into the editing process where there'll be lots and lots of back and forth and your editor will become your best friend and the person that you hear from constantly.
And in an ideal situation, you guys will work really well together, really closely. You'll bounce ideas off each other, and that could be something as small as you need to flesh out this idea more. Or it could be having a look at this now we think that we need to take a step back and pull this out and put that in and that sort of thing. It's a live situation. At the same time, you will have design work on the look of your book. They'll do a few options. Your publisher and your editor will start to show you those options. We're looking in this direction, what do you think? And it really should be, one of the wonderful things about publishing is that it's a real collaboration and it should be a real collaboration.
There are books that are easily done that are sort of type set, put into a book, and off they go. But we really love to collaborate with not just the teams that we have and the authors, but freelance of freelance creatives. You'll settle on a design if you are doing, say a cookbook or something like that, there'll be a shoot. You'll have your photographer and your stylist and that sort of thing happening. That will happen once you've got the manuscript in. There's more editing along the way. You get to the first pages, second pages, corrections, I might be giving you PTSD, the whole process. And then once you have everything signed off, it goes off to be printed if it is an illustrated book. A book that's got lots of color and images will most likely be printed in China.
That's a cost thing. But they've got amazing facilities, they've got the best printers, and there are wonderful printers in Melbourne as well. But in terms of volume and that sort of thing, we print our books in China. If it is a narrative book or a black and white book that just needs to be type set, then we work with really great publishers in local publishers in Australia as well, One in Victoria and one in South Australia. Then it ships post-pandemic shipping takes forever and it's much harder to control than it has been. And then it goes into the warehouse and along the way you've started to talk to marketing and publicity to shape that side of things and you're ready to go. But that process really can take, if you're talking about an illustrated book and you're printing in China, I'm probably talking 18 months to two years from starting to talk about the book to have a book in the bookshop.
You have got to be patient. I remember exactly where I was when I got the email that said, we're going to offer you a book contract. I was filling up with petrol on my way down to my sister's house and that was like April. And then I don't think we signed the contract until July because it was back and forth on what the book was going to be about. Then it was submitted in November, then because of the pandemic, it came out in September. From April one year to September the following year, it was a long process.
Exactly. And that’s the book that doesn't require photography or anything like that. And as well your book was one of the books because it was pretty evergreen. For some books, it’s old-fashioned and frankly sexist, but Mother's Day, Father's Day, and Christmas are really big gifting times because books are still really big gifting options. If we think that a person's book will be perfect for Christmas or Mother's Day or Father's Day, it may be delayed again. It may technically be ready to go in May, but we don't want it until August because that's when you get your Father's Day releases. There's some commerce and some marketing involved in it as well.
Thank you so much for going through that process and yes, PTSD. I remember those and a shout out to Lauren who was my editor because line by line we went through like 70,000 words over and over. If someone is listening and they're thinking, “All right, this is something I could actually do,” where do they start? Like, do they just pitch, what is a pitch? Should they research first? Like how do they know which publisher to go with? Any insights on those?
Look, there are lots of different ways to do it and it can be difficult to sort of get into knowing who to talk to. An agent is always that they have all of those connections. They know they will help you with who to go to, and how to get to them. They'll have a really good understanding of what to publish, which publishers work with which people, and which individuals in a publishing company may love this sort of thing. The drawback of that, of course, is that you have to get them to accept you and you can just Google book agents, and literary agents in Australia, and there are lots of really fantastic ones.
They will also take somewhere between 10 and 20% of what you are earning. A lot of people choose to just try and go the direct route. I would absolutely recommend doing lots and lots of research about what you want from it. The Australian Society of Authors is a really great resource. They have lots of tips and tricks. Google is definitely your friend when it comes to thinking about who you want to publish with. Different companies have different brands and profiles, what they specialize in, what they're best yet, that sort of thing. I really would recommend doing plenty of research in terms of how they know which publisher to go with. There are lots of publishers out there, particularly the big four multinational publishers. They can do a bit of everything and they sort of specialize in that they can do lots of different things.
But one of the pros of going with a smaller or an independent publisher can be as well that you may get more personalized attention. They may have a smaller list that's something that independent and smaller publishers really push as one of their selling points as well. It's a real toss-up working out. Do you want the sort of market power of a big multinational publisher or do you want someone much smaller? Do you want someone in between? One of the reasons that I really love working for Hardie Grant is that I feel that this is not just a terrible at Hardie Grant, but we sit somewhere in between. We have the market power of a pretty large publisher, but we have a very diverse but a focused list and we sell globally.
It's rare that we would take on a book these days that didn't have global opportunity to sell into the UK and the US that we might be able to sell rights for into Europe, that sort of thing. It really depends on what you want. There's a publisher out there for you and you also need to make sure that you connect with the people that you are working with because you're going to be working with them for quite a long time and you are putting your heart and soul into a manuscript and handing it over to them. We really try and remember that this is someone's baby that they're handing over for us to do our very best with.
Recently, someone on Instagram photographed my book in and they're on the beach in New Jersey and I was like, “Oh my god.”
That's so good.
I had someone photograph it recently who runs a winery in Tuscany and I was like, “Oh my God.” And she's like If ever you come to Italy. And I was like, “Of course.”
That's amazing. That makes me so happy to hear that as well. Like that's one of the great things about publishing is thinking about these books that we work so hard on, thinking about them finding their homes all over the world with people that take so much from them.
They do. They take so much from it. And you mentioned the Australian Society of Authors. If people are listening and they're on Facebook, there's a closed Facebook group, you just need somebody in the group to invite you in, which is called Australian Binders of Writers. And there are authors and journalists and publishers in there. It's can be somewhere to have a look and see even if you just search for the publisher's name and you'll see people's opinions or what they've found good and bad and all of that. And on that note, I'd love to know from your perspective, what we've just talked about is really like from the author's perspective or would-be author's perspective of how a publisher will help them. But what makes a great relationship for the publisher and author, Like from the publisher's perspective, what things are the most frustrating when you're working with a new author?
This is a good question. I might just start by talking about the pitch because I was thinking for people who are listening to this, it's all well and good to say go and find your publisher, but then what do you give them?
Yes.
And a pitch can take a lot of different forms and if you find a publisher that's interested in your work, they will help you with that. But I would say that one of the things that we come across quite often is that people forget that there's a very big market out there and that they really need a unique selling point. That whatever you think your idea is, the chances are that there is something pretty similar, isn't there already? You need to think about how you're going to reach those consumers. Because at the end of the day, we work with booksellers and all sorts of people along the line, but the consumer is the most important person because that's who we have to connect with. You really need to think about a unique selling point of what this book is and an elevator pitch type of thing of who the market is, what the book is, and why it will find a home with a particular audience.
What is that unique selling point? And a really good outline of what the book will be. You don't, you know, some sample writing is great. You don't have to have written the whole thing necessarily. Some sample writing and perhaps a rough contents list and don't be worried about your publisher's going to say, “I hate chapter nine and forget it.” If they can sense that there's something there, then they'll want to work with you on it. But it needs enough detail for them to understand that you know what you're talking about as well. But in terms of the things that are most frustrating from a publisher's perspective, I suppose a classic one really is, I talked about one of the joys of the job is really collaborating with people.
And one of the more difficult things I think is when people think they know everything about what they're doing. And of course, a person, particularly if they run their business or if they've got a dedicated social media following, they will understand their audience but they will be working with people who have been publishing books for a very long time. The best relationships and best bulls come from proper collaborations between the authors and the publishers where the publishers really respect where the author is coming from and what their sort of knowledge is and vice versa. The publisher feels that they're being listened to as well because it does happen sometimes that people say, “No, my audience won't want that.” I hate that. I don't want to do it. But often a publisher will know what they're talking about because they've run into something like this in the past.
I would say something that's really common particularly people who've got big online followings, is that they imagine that a lot more people will buy the book that follows them than they actually will. And that is just because when it comes down to it, they've got to walk out their cold hard cash for that book and it just doesn't always happen. We love a social media audience, that's fantastic and in the last 10 years that it has become something that we definitely consider, but it's not the be-all and end all for us. What we want are really fantastic original ideas, great writers, and people like you Fiona, who understand their audience can work their audience, understand marketing, and can go down that train as well. You cannot, and we have learned, every publisher has learned this the hard way. You cannot rely on a big social media following alone. They may not be engaged, they may not care about a book, you just may sell one in five people that follow, and you may buy a book rather than 9 out of 10, which many people think will be the case.
I think that's such an important part, especially that last bit about your social media following. I'm constantly preaching on this podcast of like, just because you have this many tens of hundreds of thousands of followers doesn't mean that they're going to buy anything from you or ever leave Instagram and come over to your website. I think it's exactly the same with books, and a lot of people borrow books from each other, one person buys it and 20 people read it. Again, it kind of goes back to like that objective. And if your objective is to build your brand, then you're like, “Great, well that's good. More people are reading it.” But if your objective is “I'm going to make a lot of money.” It may not be the same. And when you said then about, I was laughing even though I had myself on mute because when you were like, sometimes our authors think they know everything. I was like, it just made me go back to like the covers, the first covers meeting where I was like, “No, I don't like it.” And I was like, God, I'm such a Diva.”
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No, we want that feedback and we don't expect an author to just say, “Yes, whatever you like.” We just want it to be a collaboration. But we just hope that people understand that we are working with book designers who have been designing books for a very long time and that sometimes a publisher will have a perspective perhaps that you don't have. As a person who's living and breathing in whatever world you are inhabiting. Whereas we're thinking way beyond your social media circle. We're thinking about the person on the beach in New Jersey, or whatever that might be.
Totally. I remember also specifically I was in the hospital with my son. He was having surgery at the Royal Children's and he was five months old and I got an email saying, we're gonna change the title. And I was like, “Oh my god.” But I'm so happy that you guys changed the title because if it had been called what it was supposed to be called or what it was originally going to be called, I don't think it would've done as well at all.
That's nice to hear probably bad timing on our behalf.
No, you didn't know that he was in the hospital. But I was like, “They're changing the time.” It's just all of these moments that I remember these key parts. But I'm so glad that I put that trust in and said, “Yes, you guys know better than me what's going to sell.” And then it has so many times since. As you mentioned, you work with incredible designers on the books and Hardie Grant makes beautiful books and you've talked about that a bit and that was a huge part of the reason that I wanted to work with you. I remember saying this really early on, my audience is very aesthetically minded and a lot of them are working in interior design, furniture design, ceramics, and all of that. And you and the team have such a great eye for design and you go into the Melbourne foyer and just the beautiful books that are lining the bookshelves there. And you work with incredible book designers like Andy Warren who designed Project.
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How do you feel about the idea of people don't judge a book or they do judge a book, but it's covered now because they really do?
It's a good saying and it's at its heart. We shouldn't judge things from the outside, but in my opinion, the book cover is the very first point of marketing and that's how we really talk about it. That is sometimes the very first thing that people judge. It's hugely important actually in terms of whether someone's looking around online in a bookshop, browsing, doing whatever they're doing. You have 0.5 of a second to catch someone's attention and for them to think, that looks really interesting or that resonates with me. Cover meetings are really hard, sometimes it's easy and it's a joy and everyone's happy and you've nailed it. Sometimes it can really be really hard. And the thing that I really try and instill and the people we work with and the authors is that it's as much about the sense that the book gives you and the cover gives you as it is about whether you like the color green or whether you want a Serif font or a San Serif font or something like that.
The cover suggests to an audience whether it will resonate with them, whether it's not for them, and what the interiors are like. A cover is hugely important and we spend a lot of time going back and forth fixing this and that. I mean, the covers meeting is my favorite and my least favorite meeting that we have for that reason. Because when it's hard, it's really hard. Sometimes we drive a poor, and we work with a lot of different freelance cover designers and illustrators. We barely do any books in-house because we like to sort of match the right person with the right project. And we can't hire 25, 30, or 50 different covered designers. We work mostly with freelancers and we do drive them crazy sometimes like, “We like that, but could you make it a little bit less like this and move the sub and you can't see this?” It's a real mix of the practical and the aesthetic and the aspirational really.
I remember standing in the airport bookshop with, I like mockups and I literally like put it on the shelf of the business. I was like, “Will this stand out?” And it's funny, even just looking at the business section, I was like, “Why is everything blue?” I was like, “Okay, it’s going to stand out.”
There are times that you do want to create a cover that sort of goes with the flow that suggests that it is a certain type of business book. One of the things that I was really so impressed with you Fiona, was that you understood right from the very beginning that there was a real selling point to having a book about creative design that looked fantastic, that didn't look like who moved my cheese or whatever that book is like, wasn't that incredibly typical, very American looking. It's not a bad thing that those books are very American looking, but you could see that there was a way to create a different market for a business book. We love to do that at Hardie Grant. We really want to challenge the status quo and we want to do things a little bit differently where we are never scared to push the design envelope a little bit. That's a healthy point of friction with the sales team often who have to be the ones who are going out to the bookshops to say, “Look, I know it doesn't have any food on the cover, but I promise it's going to sell really well.” Then the publishers on the other side are saying, make it crazier, push the envelope more and more and more. So it's finding that balance.
I think also like in terms of the pitch and the discussions with the publisher, just on that point, I think it's important to say what you don't want as well, just what you do want because I remember just saying I don't want my photo on the cover. It's not about me, it's about the people that are going to get help. It's not, there are so many business books out there that I think are just like thinly veiled biographies rather than actual business books.
Absolutely. I think that that's a really great conversation to have early as well, right from the beginning because things can get really difficult if you've gone three-quarters of the way down the line and it turns out, we thought that was exactly what the book that we were making was. It's really good to have those frank conversations upfront and also to talk honestly with your publisher, and your editor about going and finding some other covers that you love. It doesn't mean you're going to get a copy of those covers, but it gives a sense of what you're interested in and the market that you're going after. That's a really helpful way to start the process.
I totally had my Pinterest board. This is a very hard question to answer, but how do you know what will sell?
We don't, the cold hard truth of it. If publishers knew for sure what would sell it would be a lot easier. But there are certain things that will resonate with an audience. There are certain leaves you compress you will that will help you to understand, we do have to have to speculate a lot. For most of the books that we print, particularly the ones that we print offshore in China, we have to make the call before we've had any feedback really from cold hard feedback from retailers or consumer sentiment and that sort of thing. It is the publisher's risk, but there are certain things that can mitigate that risk if you understand the market, and understand where it might sit in particular bookshops. Most importantly try to understand that consumer audience.
That's where you work so closely with an author because they are going to understand their audience better. Probably the new or your marketing team ever really will. We don't really know what we'll sell and there are all sorts of mechanics we do in the background. We have comparative titles, and competitive titles, how many books did this sell, could it be similar to this? And that's sort of for us to get a general sense of the economics of it. We are constantly trying to work less on gut instinct only and to look at more data. But it's a real mix of data and gut instinct. You can't only go on data because every book is different. That's one of the interesting things about publishing, it's a real mix of the arts and commerce. It's what's really good about the industry and what makes it really interesting.
But it can be really hard and there isn't a publisher on earth who doesn't get it wrong sometimes. You have to be optimistic. I don't think anyone could work in book publishing who wasn't an optimist who could see the potential in a book. But you have to be realistic. Sometimes you can be maybe overly optimistic about if we get this and this and if this works and if influencers like it and maybe Oprah will love it. That path is you've got a stock problem, you've spent too much money and cash flow is a huge thing in publishing because we have to outlay so much money ahead of before you get a single dollar back basically. We try and print small and we try to be as cautious as is sensible and really try and identify that audience.
That was a very long-winded way of saying we don't know what we'll sell, but we use all of our sort of data that we've had over the years. We use our gut instinct. We get feedback. We just have bought up Karen Martini’s beautiful huge new book called Cook and that's a huge project for us. She's been writing it for six years. It's mega. It's 912 pages. It's been absolutely huge. It's been sort of writing five and working on five concurrent books at once. Lauren McDougal, our editor, worked on that one. I think she probably went straight from your book onto Karen's book pretty much. And just absolutely huge. But for a book like that, we did lots of audience research. We paid a business to go out and do research and data about what we thought, we've compared it to other books and that sort of thing. It's complex and you put your heart and soul into it and you do as much as you possibly can to make it.
What are you most proud of from your time at Hardie Grant so far?
Lots of different things. I mean, at heart I would say the thing that I'm most proud of are the books that we make and have made. I think they're fantastic. You couldn't do what you do in publishing if you didn't love books and if you didn't love the books that you make, I feel really proud of those books. That's lucky because that's really at the heart of what we do. I think they're really valuable and worthwhile. I love that we have managed to get a truly global audience for our books as well. We feel really strongly that Australian content, Australian authors, and Australian freelancers are doing some of the best work in the world and we want to help put that work out there. And our books have won awards all over the world, so we know that they can stand up to absolutely the best in the world.
At its heart, that's what I'm most proud of. I love the team and the staff at Hardie Grant. Everybody is passionate, and everybody loves what they do. Everyone works so hard. I think it's a really great sign that even after all of these years of working in publishing when the new book samples come in every month, everyone gets excited. Everyone loves to open the books and have a look like we still feel passionate and we still really love what we do. And also we've grown hugely ever since Hardie Grant started nearly 25 years ago next year. But we've grown hugely in the last five years as well. Really up there with the top five book publishing businesses in trade nonfiction in the country.
A quarter of a century. I warned you before we hit record, that after this comes out, I'm sure you're going to get bombarded with all of these books pictures, but if people are listening to this and they're thinking, I would love to get in touch with her, can they do that? How do they do that? And then what's next for you and what's next for Hardie Grant?
They can get in touch with me. I'm on LinkedIn and I shouldn't check this before, but I'm just on LinkedIn as Roxy Ryan at Hardie Grant.
It’s a very unique name. It's cool, you sound like an actress.
I'm not the greatest on LinkedIn, but I am also an Instagram as @roxymayryan. You can always contact me there. There is also a general contact email on the Hardie Grant website as well, depending on what you want to do because there's a children's department, there is a travel specialist department, we've got two businesses in the UK, there's a business in the US, there's a fiction business in Sydney. There are all sorts of things. I'm not necessarily the person for every single book out there that we can direct you to the right place in terms of what's next for me, the most immediate impressing thing is that I'm going off to have a baby in about a month. I'll be going off to do that and I'm off for six months or so. And then just back to making more beautiful, fantastic books really, it's a wonderful industry and it's a great company that I love to work for.
Thank you so much for coming on. Thank you for saying yes to my book. Thank you for sharing this because I think it's not often shared, it's kind of like a mystery behind the scenes and no one talks about things like advances or how long it takes or what the process was to get published. I think it's fantastic you came on and gave people insights. So thank you so much, Roxy.
My pleasure. Thank you for having me on.
Bye.
Okay, see you, Fiona. Bye bye.
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Does that make you want to write a book? I just think it is so useful to have this insight from somebody like Roxy who has this wealth of experience and knowledge and is actually quite often the person saying yes or no to books. I mean, she was the person that said yes to my book and it really transformed my business. It has opened up so many conversations between business owners that perhaps would never have come into contact with me and my business. I'm just thankful for that. I'm incredibly thankful as well for Roxy saying yes, I will come on the podcast knowing that she's probably going to get us swamped with book proposals from everyone and their dog. I just am so thankful that Roxy said yes to my book. Yeah. Just said yes to coming on and I just wish her so much joy with her next little one that is coming along soon, and may even be here by the time this podcast comes out.
I would love to know what you took away from that. Like I said, does it make you want to write your own book? Does it make it less scary to think about these kinds of things? You can always email us at hello@mydailybusinesscoach.com. You can send us a DM @mydailybusinesscoach. But I'd love to know what you took away from this and perhaps you've got a book proposal that's been sitting on the shelf for years and now you feel maybe energized to get up and send it out. Two things stood out for me, as always, a lot of things stood out, but the two that I'm going to really hone in on today were the concept of gut and data. I talk about that a lot. I think I actually had a whole episode about gut and data and in my book, I talk about it as well, having a sense of what is going to work.
When I asked Roxy, how do you know what's going to sell? She was saying, you look at the data, of course, you make kind of a calculated decision, but you also have a gut feeling that maybe something's going to work. I know that my book, Passion Purpose Profit, which came out through Hardie Grant via Roxy saying yes in 2020 was I think their first or one of the first books that they hadn't done business with before in this way. And so that was kind of a punt like that I think this is going to work. And as Roxy said, there is no guarantee. If people knew exactly which books were gonna work then you know, they would, they would just be like one incredible publisher that does everything and just knows all the numbers and can see into the future.
But I love the concept of gut and data because it's exactly how I work. I often look at analytics, I have an analytical mind, but I also always trust my intuition. And that is something that has only come through time. There have been a couple, maybe two or three instances where I have not trusted my gut and it has backfired so badly that I wish I know I can feel, I can sense the minute that I should have said no to something and I didn't. I love that idea. I love how honest and transparent Roxy was about that. But I also think it's something that whether you're in book publishing or you have a completely other business, it is very important to trust your gut but also look at the numbers as well. I absolutely love that. The other thing that Roxy talked about, particularly when looking at a book proposal or a new author is that most things have already been done and you think that about everything.
I think there are like 2.5 million podcasts now, I can't remember the exact number. I did look it up not that long ago. I think there's something like 2 million, or maybe it's like 1.5 million new books published every single year. Now not all of those are going to be best sellers. Like they're just not. And also if you think about those sheer numbers, chances are you are putting together a story or a book that there's something very similar to it out there. I know with my own book we actually change the title. The sales team changed the title towards the end and then the book went into print and it was a couple of months just before it was coming out. I googled it to see if you could see the pre-orders because it was available on every kind of website from Japan to America or all these places.
I just wanted to have a look. I was so shocked to see that there was another book with the same name, not the exact same name, but very similar. I actually contacted my publisher straight away, not Roxy, but another person I was working with, and said, “They have a book with the same name.” And she was like, “Okay.” I was so not fussed about it. And I looked and they were so many books that have the same name. And even though what's inside might be a bit different, chances are what you are presenting is not the most original thing that has ever come out. You've got to think about, how are you making it different. What's the USP, what's your unique selling point?
I think that is something that we often forget in our own marketing of our business as well, like what makes it unique. Whenever I'm talking about this with large crowds or doing speaking gigs, I will always talk about humanizing your business because you are the human behind the business and it's often your story, your experience that is going to bring the point of difference into whatever it is that you're creating. Whether it's a book or a product or a sales page, bringing humanity in can be one of the biggest ways to differentiate yourself from the competition. I love that she talked about, you know, everything's already been done, how are you gonna do it differently? It's not to say everything's been already been done, don't even bother, but how are you going to do it differently? That is it for today's episode.
If you want to check out everything at Hardie Grant, you can do that at Hardie Grant and it's hardiegrant.com And within that, you'll find Hardie Grant Books. You'll find publishing, you'll find their media, their HGX, and a whole bunch of businesses that they run. And of course, we will link to Roxy Ryan in our show notes as well, you can get on over and check out more about Roxy. As she said, she's going on maternity leave, but Roxy is like a star wart of the book publishing industry and I have no doubt that she will be back and she'll be saying yes or no or making people's dreams come true by enabling them to get their book published as she did me. So thank you again, Roxy. Thank you everyone at Hardie Grant. It was a huge team effort to get my book out and just thanks for coming on and sharing your wisdom and insights.
I know so many people are going to take away so much from today's episode. As I said, all of the information will be available on the show notes, which you can find at mydailybusinesscoach.com/podcast/250 as this is episode 250. If you found this useful, I would love it so much. If you could just take five seconds and leave us a review, you can do that on Apple or Spotify or anywhere else that you listen to. It just really helps us get found by other small business owners and who knows, maybe there is the next best seller in somebody's garage or on their hard drive right now and they're going to listen to this episode and they're gonna get it published and the whole world will change for them. So if you can, it would be great if you could leave a review. Thank you so much for listening. I'll see you next time. Bye.
Thanks for listening to the My Daily Business Coach podcast. If you want to get in touch, you can do that at mydailybusinesscoach.com or hit me up on Instagram @mydailybusinesscoach.
