Episode 282: Storytelling is an intimate and powerful form of birth education with Sophie Walker of Australian Birth Stories
Why would somebody want to follow you or subscribe to your emails? What is in it for them? In today's episode, Fiona chats with Sophie Walker of Australian Birth Stories about her journey, and her newly launched book with Jodi Wilson, The Complete Australian Guide to Pregnancy and Birth. Tune in!
Topics discussed in this episode:
Introduction
How Australian Birth Stories started
The Complete Australian Guide to Pregnancy and Birth
Sophie's deciding factor in co-authoring the book
How Sophie and Jodi work together
“Resistance is strongest at the finish line”
On Sophie's team
Sophie's recommended resources
Conclusion
Get in touch with My Daily Business Coach
Resources and Recommendations mentioned in this episode:
I think I've been lucky in that. I feel like I've reversed-engineered my business. I've done the podcast first because I wanted to, and I was like a gift to everyone and I hope you like it kind of thing. And they did. It became a business as we went on because I'd built that classic kind of business terms, like trust. When I made resources that I thought would be helpful for me in that space, then they're like, "This really resonates." I think sometimes people start podcasts and things in and almost in an infomercial of just plugging their products and they forget that why would someone tune in every week? What are you giving here? I’ve been giving for a long time and now it's all paying off in a way.
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Welcome to episode 282 of the My Daily Business Coach podcast. Today you are tuning in to an interview episode. That's where I interview a curious and creative small business owner from all over the world. We talk about all sorts of things from insights and tips to challenges they've overcome, mindset problems, and all sorts of other things. Today I'm talking to somebody who has already been on this podcast. This is the first time in the history of this podcast that we are bringing back a guest for a second time. I'm really excited to get stuck into that. Before I do, I wanted to mention that Marketing for Your Small Business course and coaching program is open now so you can enroll in that it's a nine-week live course and coaching program, which means that you do the course in your own time and then you come to nine consecutive weeks of live coaching with myself and the other people in the group.
What's good about this is that the course Marketing for Your Small Business is available anytime. You can work on it whenever you like. But what happens with courses is that a lot of people buy them and never actually finish them. By doing the nine-week coaching component of it, you can finish the course. The other thing that's awesome about this is that you get to ask me questions throughout the whole time that you're doing the course and at the end, you can opt-in to share your marketing strategy and your 12-month plan with everybody else for feedback. You will get feedback from the group. You will also get feedback from me. If you're interested in that and you want to finally understand strategic marketing, then check out MarketingforYourSmallbusiness.com. You'll find out all the information you can tune in from anywhere around the world.
We've had people do it from Hong Kong, Singapore, England, Spain, France, Germany, and Mexico. Trying to think of anywhere else. A whole lot of different places. Don't feel like, "I'm not in Australia. I can't take part." You can take part as long as you got good internet access. You can find all the information at marketingforyoursmallbusiness.com. I also of course want to acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians of the beautiful lands on which I record this podcast and I'll meet my guests. And that is the Wurrung and Wurundjeri people of the Kulin nation. And I pay my respects to their elders, past, present, and emerging, and acknowledge that sovereignty has never been ceded. Let's get into today's interview episode.
This is the first time that we are bringing back somebody who's already been on the podcast. Today, my guest is Sophie Walker, who is the founder of Australian Birth Stories. If you're in Australia and if you know anyone that has ever been pregnant, if you are in the health space around pregnancy support and postnatal care, you may well be very aware of Australian Birth Stories. Sophie has an incredible podcast under the same name, Australian Birth Stories that has boasted more than 11 million downloads. It is one of the go-to resources for women once they get pregnant, for women in aftercare postnatal care, and for women who want to empower themselves with knowledge about the birth process. As a mom of two young children, I wish that I had known about this particularly with my first because I had quite a traumatic birth that was in the UK and you just don't feel empowered most of the time when you're pregnant and you don't know which questions to ask.
I was in another country being pregnant, I didn't know their health system, and I didn't know which questions I could ask, which would it feels stupid sometimes to ask these things about your own body. But what Sophie has set out to do is empower people to understand what their rights are as a pregnant person, what types of births can happen, what are the things that sometimes can go wrong, what are the things that are amazing when they go right? And to listen to the real lived experiences of people that have gone through all the different types of births, not just births, but all the different types of pregnancies as well. Sophie created Australian Birth Stories, I think about seven or eight years ago now and did it as an opportunity to share her own experience.
She had a traumatic first birth, she's a mother of three children now and she had done a lot of education herself around this year. Also done a master's degree in public health. Sophie was coming to it from both her tertiary education, but with lived experience of going through something and wanting to prevent other women from feeling like they have to go down a similar path. She started just by interviewing her sister and other friends about their birth experiences. And that has grown to become not just an incredibly popular podcast but an entire education hub. Today, Australian Birth Stories offer online courses, eBooks, meditation cards, and all sorts of other things to help people who are pregnant and all of their support systems figure out and ride that journey of motherhood and inter parenthood as beautifully and as smoothly and as knowledge filled as possible.
Today, I wanted to ask Sophie back onto the podcast. She was here last May 2021 and will link to that initial episode in the show notes. But I wanted to ask her back on because she has just launched alongside Jodi Wilson, her first book, The Complete Australian Guide to Pregnancy and Birth, which is a massive undertaking and fills a gap for women in Australia, but I think women worldwide as well to understand what are their rights and what does the journey into motherhood look like. She's spoken to people from all sorts of backgrounds and religions and cultures and all of them to talk about what was your birth experience like and what advice and preparation would you give to other women reading. She's also spoken with a lot of medical people in that space. There's been a lot of medical readings on this before it went out. And I wanted to talk to her about why did she create this book? How has it impacted her business and how has the business grown since we last spoke? Here it is, my interview with the amazing Sophie Walker of Australian Birth Stories.
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Welcome to the My Daily Business Coach podcast for the second time, Sophie. You're the first person ever to come back.
Welcome back. That's a real honour. Thanks for having me.
I'm so excited to get stuck into your book and everything that has changed for you and everything that's coming out. You're 24 hours away as we are recording this to your book being launched, which is so massive congrats. How are you feeling?
I'm excited but I'm so busy. I'm just putting one foot in front of the other at the moment. I'm focused on the next task otherwise, it's a bit overwhelming but it's good.
Are you planning to go to some bookshops tomorrow and rearrange everything? I'm sure it'll be like front and centre.
I'm actually going to sign books. My publicist wants me to drop in on a bunch of bookshops on Wednesday and sign their copies.
How exciting. I am thrilled for you and I know this has been a long time coming. The reason that I wanted to get you back on is that you've got lots to say and I feel like I never get through enough in an hour with you, but because of Australian Birth Stories, your company, and your brand has changed massively over the last 12 months. Well, it's been changing the whole time. How long have you been doing this? Was that seven years?
I have been doing this since 2017 and it's coming up to seven years.
Six years. That is huge. For people that don't know, can you just give us a brief overview of how Australian Birth Stories started?
I've got three little boys that are nine, seven, and three and I started the podcast after I'd had my second little boy. I had a challenging first labour that caught me off guard and I thought I was going in prepared, but realistically now knowing what I know now, I wasn't prepared at all. But then I immersed myself in education and birth stories in my preparation for my second birth. I had a really beautiful experience. I thought, maybe I'll start my own podcast. And I had no idea it was going to be a business. I thought I'll record my second birth experience and then I'll record with friends and family and then it just has grown from there. It started with just my mum listening and now it's had 11 million downloads.
11 million, that's like half our country. It's crazy.
That's wild when you think of it like that.
Imagine if you put everyone in Australia. I think we're up to 25 million. I always think of it's like 20 million because that's what I grew up with. But half of the country is listening. I notice people all over, but you started that six years ago now and it has grown, like you said, you have 11 million downloads, and you're about to publish this massive book that I can't wait to get into. But you also sell courses, you're an online education hub as well as a thought leader and an authority in this birthing space. How has the business grown over time, I've got this little podcast my mom listens through to this. I'm sure you're probably going to feel a bit embarrassed me saying this, but this online education empire is for anyone in the pregnancy space.
Not just people who are pregnant, but all their support workers, and midwives. I know that when I was on your podcast, I got a message from my anesthetist who was in the room for my second child. He sent through a message and I was like, he's listening. Everyone listens and I've had all sorts of people still from past careers get in touch and they're like, "I'm having a baby and I just heard it.” How did the business move from, I've got this podcast and I'm just sharing my story through to thousands, hundreds of thousands of people buying your stuff, going to you for help. How does that all work? And do you feel like it's an empire?
No, I feel like I'm quite modest. Today I feel a bit different because tomorrow I just booked to get my hair and makeup done and then I'm going to be on TV and all these things so it feels like I'm living somebody else's life at the moment. But it's been a slow burn and I think it just has resonated with people because I felt there was a little bit of a void and I was drawing on American and English resources to upskill and when I created this I thought, wouldn't it be good? And everybody else was thinking that they wanted it too. I think I filled a space that was there. I mean it's grown in a variety of ways. I do interview some celebrities and influences in inverter coms and at the beginning that was really helpful to just grow the audience because then it was free advertising for me.
They'd share it and then I'd gain exposure to their audience. It grew in that way. I know you'll be used to looking at podcast download spikes, then after I do an influencer there'll be a big spike. Occasionally I get a bit of backlash. People are like, "we just want to hear the everyday women." And I mostly do everyday women because they're the ones that apply all the time. But I think I've just taught myself the business stuff sequentially and I've been like, "Okay, I'm going to tackle online courses and I've just taken courses on How to Set Up an Online Course” and again, just taking that one step at a time and I'm not techy at all. I've had support from various business coaches and a full disclaimer, I have coaching from you as well.
As it's grown I've realized, I need to bring somebody into this area of the business who knows more to help support me. Because you can't do everything. And you get frustrated thinking, how come another business can do all these things? And after a while, it's like, "they've got a team." They've got a whole social media department who do that. Taking the pressure off yourself to make world-class reels and things like that have been learning as well. But it's just been gradual and then the book has been like another gradual and huge learning curve. To find me where I am now. But it's definitely not an overnight success. It's been a sort of step process.
And you have young kids. Young kids always keep you grounded. I am sandwiched between interviews, you are having with two of the biggest TV stations in the country, you could be Beyonce and they still keep you grounded. And even when you were saying before I interview celebrity women and sometimes people say, “We just want the average everyday woman.” I think birth is one of those things that it does not matter how much money you have or how famous you are or anything else, you still have to go through it. Like the baby has to come out of your body. Whatever way it is. I think it's lovely to hear those stories as well. Let's talk about the book. How did it come about? You have co-authored it, it's such a massive undertaking to consider the complete, can you tell us the title?
It's The Complete Australian Guide to Pregnancy and Birth and my book publisher put that forward, that title. I was like, "Okay, no pressure." The Complete Guide.
A complete guide to anything but especially pregnancy and birth where there are a million different variables. Like if you are going to choose your own adventure book, it would just go on forever because everyone has a different birth story, which you know all about that. How did you get started? How long has it taken? What can people expect from it? Who have you written it for? All of the stuff.
I'm going to be honest. I never thought I'd write a book. I never thought I'd be running my own business. This idea floated as I got a random email from a book publisher. I won't name-drop them because I didn't end up working with them anyway, but she said, "Have you ever thought about writing a book." I was like, "not really." And she's like, "let's get on a Zoom
call." And it was in Covid and we got on a Zoom call and we chatted about different things and we were like, it could be all the stories put together. It could be a postpartum book, it could be all these things. We had a nice chat and I said to my sister and my mom. I can't believe somebody's asking me if I want to write a book because I didn't do very well in English.
That was exciting. It kind of planted the seed. But she said to come back to me with a book outline or I'm not sure even what the proper term analogy is. What's it called when you a proposal? Proposal? See that's how professional I am. She said to come back with a proposal. And I sent an email back, not even a Word doc, with a bunch of dot points about some ideas and then I never heard from her again. I did a bit of a stalk because it was Covid times. I was like, maybe something terrible's happened to her, maybe she's trapped somewhere or I thought that, but I think she just thought that email just shows you've got no clue and therefore we won't be taking this further. But then, I was like, "Okay, so I'm not writing a book."
A few more months passed and another book publisher reached out and we ended up having lunch together and it was really nice and she was pregnant at the time and she's like, "I just feel like I'm in that space where there's not a great comprehensive book and I love the podcast and I'd love for there to be an Australian book." And I said, "I find it hard when people are always asking me on the podcast what books should I read, I'm up to date on the podcast and I've bought the courses, what books do you recommend?" And then I said, "It's really hard because there's not one comprehensive Australian book that's for everyone. If you want to have an elective cesarean or you want to have a home birth with no interventions, there's nothing for everyone."
Some books are specifically for Homebirth. Some books are specifically for a more medical model but not for everyone. I started getting excited about it and Jodi who works for me was, I think she'd almost finished her book Practicing Simplicity. And she said, "I've just loved working with Murdoch. You should say to them somebody else is interested in writing a book and see if they'll take it on or make an offer or something." I went into this whole other world of having two amazing offers. I had a really lovely phone chat with my publisher now Jane from Murdoch and we talked about it and she said, “Look, it's a hard niche to get into in this space and that's why most people won't touch it.” It's really hard to crack into the parenting space and I don't know much about it, I feel like you'll know a lot more about the publishing world and the book space. But I was thinking why is it hard? I feel like a million books come out every day and it is hard to get other bookshops to buy it. You can go ahead and write an amazing book, but it's hard to get it over the line and get the sales through even though like the leading book that's purchased in Australia. It's the most popular book in Australia and it's sold 22 million copies. I'm like, "well, everyone wants a book."
Also, everyone's giving birth, it's not like a random circus training or something. It happens every day.
Every 1 minute and 45 seconds to be precise in Australia. There are over 300,000 a year I think.
300,000. Oh my goodness.
We going to say how many have been born since we started.
So many people. Can we backtrack, I know I'm getting into the detail, but I know a lot of people are interested in writing a book. I recently interviewed my publisher on this podcast about how to get a book published. When you had those two deals, what got you over the line? Was it Jane who was so lovely on the phone, was it they were going to get you to have more freedom with what you were doing? What got you over, what was the deciding factor that you thought, I'm going to go with them?
It suddenly became a real business arrangement and I thought, this is actually a big deal and also it's a permanent contract. Other things that I do in the business are just a fixed period of time, but it feels like a long and serious commitment with your book publisher because that's it, you'll be working together for life. And I suddenly thought, maybe I need an agent to oversee this. I got a few quotes from different agents and I just looked at like really popular people and I think, well they would've done their homework to find a good agent so maybe I'll just try and do that. And they were quite good. I mean one tried to woo me over, but the others have might, you've done the hard work by getting the deal so we think you should probably just do your own thing.
Which I did in the end. I reached out to another lovely lady, Julia, who I've interviewed who has the most Julia Ostro cookbooks and I said, "What do I do?" And she said I know a really lovely book agent who, I'm not sure of her professional title, but I paid her an hourly rate to help me negotiate my contract. We went back and forth between the two offers and I was very upfront with them. I said, "Look, I've got another offer from somebody else." And they've said that the book advance is this amount of money, what's your best offer kind of thing. And once I'd chosen and I guess, you were asking me the other book, the other people that were approaching me were much smaller and they said we only take on 10 books a year and you'd be like, we'd really nurture you and if you go with a bigger company then you're going to be like one of many books and you'll be like a hot favorite for three months and then they won't be friends with you anymore kind of thing.
Then you start hearing all the stories from people about what it's like working and you can be, you can have a negative relationship and all sorts of things. I had a long phone conversation with Jane and she told me her birth of course because that's how every conversation I have starts.
I really felt connected with her and I did go with Murdoch who is a much bigger organization because I thought if this does have global success, then they've got the reach and they could help support it in that way. Although then we niche down on the title so I'm not sure about the international rights or how we'll go there, that's why I chose them. But then it was weeks of anxious emails back and forth of just negotiating the percentages and it was all terminology I wasn't familiar with. My accountant put his 2 cents worth in and it's like, "Don't sell the international rights." And I was like, "What do you mean?"
My stepdad is good with business stuff so I was CCing him on everything. We negotiated back and forth for quite a while with the help of this lovely lady Alex, with who I was getting involved help. We finally agreed to it all and I felt like I've been so pushy back and forth with the contract, maybe they'll think I'm a diva and they won't want to work with me in the end. But once we signed it, Jane's like, "I'm so relieved." And she said, "that's just you doing your due diligence." That's just part of the process.
It's part of the process. I've just gone through the same thing, not as it's not going to be as big as yours, but for my second book and I had the same thing where I was like, “No, I want this, I want this.” And I was like, "Sorry for being a diva." And it's like, no, this is a huge thing. You're going to get all this intellectual stuff out of my head. Same with you. It's going to be massive for them no matter what percentage you're on. Most people's royalties are a very small percentage of how much profit the actual book will make.
When did you decide to bring Jodi on board? Because this is another thing I wanted to talk about the actual co-writing of a book with somebody. How does that all work? I know a lot of people want to do a book. I was actually just in DMS recently with an interior designer who wants to do a book but is like, I don't want to write the book. I don't either have the time or you know, she was saying she doesn't have the skillset. There are all sorts of ways to get around that now. How did your relationship with Jodi move from working with you on the podcast to letting's do this book together?
We talk so much about work and she's like she works for me and writes for me, but we are also close friends and talk about all sorts of things from toilet training to like, have you done the show notes for the podcast? She's almost a PA, we said her job description list is so long, but I never would've written it without her. That was always a decision and after I was having these negotiations and I think perhaps in the beginning when we were outlining what we really envisaged for the book, we did that together. From the very beginning, it was going to be together. We did play around with it, I didn't understand how other people had done that. There was one option to be a ghostwriter and I didn't feel comfortable with that.
I didn't want to pretend that I slogged away and wrote a book. I also just think apart from that being a bit dishonest, it's also not projecting the things that I try and promote in the podcast. I don't want people to think, she's got three kids and she's running a business and she's written a book all by herself. Like that didn't sit well with me. All the other nuances of like, will there just be a thank you in the opening page to Jodi and acknowledge her in that way or will she be on the cover and all that sort of stuff? I had to make a contract between Jodi and me. The book contract is between me and Murdoch and I own the rights to the book as well as Murdoch and then Jodi and I have our own contract and our own arrangement for finances and how we paid that out and all that sort of stuff.
That felt really smooth because we've worked together for so long and I really trust her. We've been doing it together the whole time and I think we've got a unique relationship. We shared a lot of behind-the-scenes on a podcast episode recently about yeah the ins and outs of how we did things. But both of us say there's no way we could have done it without the other person. Like it was so much work and even just running ideas past each other and the stresses of different deadlines and the editing process, which was incredibly intense. We definitely couldn't have done it alone. We both brought our own strengths to the project I think.
Of course, we'll link to Jodi’s business and her book in the show notes as well. In the book, I was listening to that episode that you just referenced about what's in the book and, and everything else. And I can't wait to get my pre-ordered copy but when it comes, I am not having any more babies at all. But I'm really interested to read it. But I was listening and you were saying about how you didn't know almost there was so much you could include and obviously it's the complete guide so it just could go on and on and on and you could have like tombs of this. But you did mention in there that you were including things that aren't necessarily usually included in these types of books, including miscarriage. And I messaged you after I listened because I was crying cause I went through a miscarriage, but I went through miscarriage and I was thinking about it when I messaged you.
It'll be seven years in Easter this year. I'll still get emotional about it and for anyone who's gone through that, there'll be a lot of stuff that comes up for them no matter where in the process of pregnancy they were. But that sort of stuff like what to include. How did you decide on that? Because you made a note. Sorry, I'll let you answer the question in a second. But you made a note on your podcast saying some people's pregnancies will start and they'll buy this book and then they'll end. And at the time when ours happened, there wasn't a great book around and I downloaded an app that told you like, “Yours is the size of an elephant, an apple today.” And I remember having to delete the app because it came up with reminders and then I unfollowed a bunch of things. But I think it's so beautiful that you considered that because it's huge, it's a very common thing. The first question is how did you decide where to limit and draw the line at what you could include? And then how have you gone through putting in the information for people whose pregnancy may not last?
I think we just did almost a brain dub. I don't like that term, but we did put all our ideas down and all our hopes, and before we wrote anything, we'd be doing the food shopping and be like, we totally need to have this and we just text it to each other. It's like, "Yes we have to do that." And I think we just started with it being huge and then we thought we'll edit it back if necessary. But then when we put it together and then we started the drafting process and showing it to the editors and stuff, they're like oh that's essential. We have to keep that. I guess the only area where we struggled with how much to include was postpartum and we feel like we've interwoven it from the start of the book to shepherd people through into the idea of how to nurture yourself.
But we just felt like we couldn't do a chapter on postpartum and be confident it was covered. It needs a whole book in itself. And we said where we are going to do early postpartum and we're going to acknowledge that we can't possibly cover it all like breastfeeding and pelvic floor rehab and all of the things. That will have to be another book hopefully Jane, if you're listening now, we say that on every call and she's like, “Let's just launch this book first.” But in regards to your point about miscarriage, I'm sorry that it moved you to tears, but also I guess that's complimentary that it really hit home. Jodi and I acknowledge in the book our privilege of where we're coming from. We're middle-class white women growing up in Australia with the public health system that supported us.
We are also fortunate that neither of us has had a pregnancy loss. We were really careful when we wrote that to include firsthand experiences with people who had, and then a good friend of Jodi's, we asked her to read it first and said does this feel, do you find this offensive or if we covered the main issues, how do you read it? As somebody who's been through this? And we did a lot of that sort of testing throughout the process and then the book went to editors of like five people and then we sent it out to midwives to medically proofread and then obstetricians and things. But we just felt like what you were saying, if you are just deleting the apps and stuff and then it's like, I'm not part of that club anymore.
Where do I fit in? And then depending on where you're at, I feel like a lot of women who have suffered loss, it feels very much like two camps. There's one camp where they're like, I just need to be pregnant again. And then they just quickly try and do everything they can to get pregnant again. And other people need time to process that grief and work out really what they're ready for and how they're going to tackle things. But we just didn't want to feel like one in four women who pick up the book just feel dropped. And it's also, it really feels like, and again I feel like I'm speaking on behalf of people like yourself, but I feel like from what people have told me on the podcast and things, people open up after you say, “We suffered a loss,” then they'll go, “I've actually had three or my sister had one just last week.”
But in the actual moment when you are grieving and bleeding and going for tests and you're not perhaps in a position where you're leaning on people as much and getting that feedback. We really wanted to detail, these are your options. You may be offered a DNC, you may be offered the option to go home and wait for the pregnancy to pass itself, and then what's involved in that. Because I don't think, I feel like a lot of people have said to me over the years, I had no idea I was going to be contracting and the amount of blood loss. We haven't shied away from dealing with detailing that because I just think if you don't know then you don't know. And you could think like what earth's happening now. Whereas if you have some guidance, this is normal to have this many clots or what have you. And I guess that's the same approach I've taken in the podcast. It's not just positive, lovely intervention-free births, we've got every type of birth so that you are prepared for what might unfold.
I just want to say thank you on behalf of the people. Because I thought if I had that information, it would've helped so much because you see these things in TV shows and it takes like five minutes and they've had a miscarriage and in reality, it took us two and a half weeks of bleeding and it was just awful. And the pain, you don't realize you actually always giving birth like you are literally birthing. Back to your business, with the book, and you've talked about it, you've referenced that you had to get a medical or you chose to get a medical review of it and you chose all these different experts to help and people with lived experience and it is very inclusive.
How are you feeling now and it's 24 hours out? Because I think when anyone does anything new in their business and a book is a big thing, a book cannot be edited again, like it is out, it's in print. I know that might be scaring you right now, but I remember when I put my book out I was like, “Oh god.” Because everything online can be edited, and podcasts can be edited once they've gone out. Videos can be edited. Everything can be edited, but a book can't be edited. Once it's out, it's out.
How are you feeling in terms of, I'm not a midwife or I'm not this or I'm not that? I had all these things like, are people going to say, you haven't done this or you haven't studied this? How have you gotten through that? Because you've ticked all the boxes, you've got all these experts in certain areas to help, but there's still that I would imagine feeling that would be there for anyone, whether they're putting out a book or putting out a course or launching a new website or finishing their day job to launch a business. How have you worked through that? Because you are having massive media. You're going to be on every TV channel, every radio.
Stop talking Fiona.
How are you and Jodi working?
It's good. We're leaning on each other and I said, good thing I pay. We have a funny arrangement with payments and invoices and things and I said, “What's your alley rate for emotional support?” Because I'm calling her before like all these things. And there's also a different unusual dynamic now because I'm representing both of us on all the media stuff. She's doing a radio interview in Tasmania where she lives tomorrow on book launch day. But I'm the face of the book promotion. I have an added responsibility of like, “Are you happy with the way I did that?” But luckily we are such good friends and now I just ring her first after every interview and she's like, "It was so good. I love how you said this." We have a lovely relationship in that sense and I feel very supported.
I know what you're saying and I feel like I almost haven't had time to think that because I've got so many things on. But there's a real sense of, being out there and people we know we have tried, I mean with anything I think there are people that love to be critical, I'm sure it won't be for everyone, but we've had such beautiful feedback already from a lot of people that we value their opinion. We feel confident in it in that sense. We've been very open in the front of the book saying, "Look, we're not midwives, we're not obstetricians and we're not trying to pretend to be and this is our background and we've gone out." The book has a whole lot of different points from perinatal specialists, substitutions, and midwives commenting on things. We're not trying to pretend anything, we're not trying to pretend to be other than what we are. But I think I'm starting to, as a business has gone onto, it's like six years that feeling of like the night before you launch a course or you send a special email or you do something it's that, "My god, what if it's ***?"
I feel like everybody goes through that. The more I listen to so many business podcasts and I feel like everybody gets to that phrase just before the end. And it's funny because we like a lot of the time, there's a lot of jokes back and forth on email about the book, the birthing of the book. We're in transition now where you just think, I don't want to do it anymore. Like this is too hard, but you're at the end and it's going to be worth it. But I think it's also good shows you're not just like totally self-inflating and it's something that's important because we are feeling the nerves and things like that, but we haven't really found any typos or any major things that we've made a mistake on yet. I'm sure on Wednesday someone will DM me and say, “Do you know what's on page 53?” I'm ready for that. And you can't be for everyone. There's bound to be somebody who's got something to say. I feel like over the years I've gotten a little bit better at receiving negative feedback.
I'm sure the majority will be positive. Absolutely. Like it's huge. I don't know if I'm allowed to say this, but your pre-orders have done incredibly well. The book hasn't even come out yet and I'm not sure if you're allowed to talk about that.
No, I'm not allowed to say specific numbers, but I am allowed to say it's gone into reprint during the pre-orders, which apparently, again because I'm not in this space, apparently that's unheard of for a first-time author.
It Is really unheard of. I used to work in book publishing and it's just insane. Most people will never earn out their advance, which means that most people will never go into reprint at all ever in history, like the whole lifespan of their book. And for you to be in reprint before your pre-order, like still in the pre-order period is insane. Well done. Like in an amazing way.
My book publisher did a really lovely post today about the book because it comes out tomorrow. And she said so many lovely things, but I feel like throughout the process we've all had this feeling of like, this could be like a real game changer and this is a really big deal and things like that. But then at the same time, guarding ourselves and she has all the way along said it's notoriously hard to get these books over the line. And then she's like I'm not sure what's happened, but you've managed to get into Big W Target and Kmart and she's like, to get in all three and to be stocked in like big numbers are huge. It's been an interesting ride. They're like, "This is really hard. But you've done it.” Hopefully, there's like another amazing number to come out next week when we get the book scan numbers. that's the other thing I find it hard when you are used to running your own business and being able to see all the sales, everything's shrouded and I'm like, how many are in the warehouse, and who's ordering what? And you're not privy to a lot of those numbers. And I feel like authors should go get access to book scans, don't you?
I did a postgraduate in editing and publishing and the guy who ran it at the time was involved heavily with book scan. When my book came out I was able to say, “Can you please get rid of that?” Because it's quite expensive I think to have a subscription to book scan. But also the other thing with books that people don't realize is that quite often the author will only get their royalties or a remittance slip, which says how many books have been sold every six months because books get returned and some books stay in the warehouse and some books are in the warehouse, but they're taken by Kmart for example. But they haven't taken the stock yet. It's so confusing for them to try and find the numbers.
But when you are the author you're like, "please tell me how many salts." And they're like, "I'll have a look at that when I can think about it." And you're like, "No, this is so important to me." And you mentioned before that finish line and I always think of the Stephen Pressfield quote when he said, “Resistance is strongest at the finish line” because it's just like, just got to get over that. But one thing I wanted to ask is, you have this huge community, you have 11 million downloads you've sold out of your book already before it's even come out, which is just amazing. You have cultivated this massive community around you.
Yes, people listen to podcasts, but you have this real connection with people where they're telling you their deepest, darkest secrets. And I would say is also largely responsible for how successful it's been. You've got this community and this audience. If you were starting out now, I know that's a big question, but you're 11 million downloads, you're so huge in the podcasting space. What would you do now? Is there anything that you would do to try and cultivate that audience if you were starting a podcast or if you were putting out a book for the first time or anything else like that? I know I'm putting you on the spot here.
No, that's okay. I think it's a lot harder. Instagram is such a fickle beast now and when I started it wasn't like if a hundred people followed you, they'd all see your picture that day and it was simple and you just put in a hashtag and then everybody else would see it. And it was much easier to grow. And I feel like every business podcast I listened to says, “Gray list” and I heard that and I was like, "I don't have time for green my list, and what even is a freebie and what would I have to offer?" I think there was quite a long time in the early stages of the business where I thought, well I'm not a midwife and I'm not an obstetrician so how can I contribute?
I often thought, well online courses aren't for me because I can't deliver that I'm not registered and things like that. I got to a point where I found other ways to do that and they've been really successful. I think it is really important to gray list early because I think, I've wasted two or three years when I could have been capturing all those well captures sounds nasty, doesn't it? I could have been growing my online community and there and there is that whole thing of now that Instagram and social media is so fickle that it's hard to get in front of people that have even put their hand up and said, “I want to see content from you.” If you've got their email address, then you can get in front of them without all the algorithms being involved.
Now that I've got it going, I've got 39,000 people on that email list. People are wanting to be involved, you just have to help them see how to do it. I'm not sure if I've answered the question, but I think I've been lucky in that I feel like I've reversed-engineered my business. I've done the podcast first because I wanted to and I was just like a gift to everyone and I hope you like it kind of thing. And they did. It became a business as we went on because I'd built that classic kind of business terms, like trust. And then when I made resources that I thought would be helpful for me in that space, and they're like, “This really resonates.” I think sometimes people start podcasts and things in and almost in an infomercial of just plugging their products and they forget that. Why would someone tune in every week? What are you giving here? I've been giving for a long time and now it's all paying off in a way.
Such good advice. And can you talk us through the book right now, obviously that would be taking up a huge amount of your time and I know you're working with different people as well to help promote the book and everything else. What is an average week like for you? Because everyone, lots of people knows your podcast, and if they don't know your podcast, they'll go and check it out and you'll have like 20 million downloads. But what does it look like? As you said before I realized at some point I need a team, I need people to help me with this. How far in were you before you got anyone in the team and then with the team?
People might look at your business now and be like, she must have like 20 people working for her, or 10 people, or all these people doing social media or you know, you're always messaging people's DMS. Like even when you get back to me, I'm always like, she's quick. What does it look like for you doing your podcasts also we haven't even mentioned, you have a lot of brand collaborations with some big brands, and some small brands you take on advertisers. You also work with people for long-term partnerships on all sorts of things. How does it all work? And then what does the team look like?
In the beginning, I'd record an interview that'd take an hour, I'd edit it myself, put it all together, and upload it. Maybe I was working, two hours a week and that was before advertisers and now at the moment, I'm working at least 40 hours at the moment with the run-up to the book I think. And that's not like nine to five, that's just constantly doing Instagram or constantly doing phone calls and liaising with people and things like that. It's totally out of balance at the moment. But just because I know I'm in that sprint phase or the busy season, whatever you want to call it. But you and I have worked together, In an ideal world, I'd like to batch the podcast and just record maybe three episodes on a Thursday and then have that set up because I've got about four people that work with me, but no one is a full-timer.
Everybody does certain hours or they do like Jodi does four podcasts a month and writes the newsletter and things like that. And then more recently I've got Odette my friend from Odette & Co helping me with PR and she's also doing brand partnerships and helping me organize the book showers, which is like having two weddings. And I keep saying, “You sure we have to do it?” Can I do something on Zoom because I think that's like, I'm confident behind the microphone but I'm like, I've got to find something to wear and everyone's going to be taking photos and that's a whole other thing. There are so many things in the air at the moment really it feels. But I think once things quiet down and I've done all of this work, I hope Odette's listening to this because whenever something quiets down she's like, “Why don't we do this?” Or you're very good at that too.
Just finding that like, “Okay, is that something we want to do now, or is that something for six months down the track or next year?” I've still got the boys at home and I'm lucky at the moment my husband is the stay-at-home dad and I don't think you'll mind me saying he's got ADHD so he takes a bit of direction because suddenly he's doing something. I'm like, “No, we've got swimming lessons.” And he's like rebuilding a wall in the garden. The boys are lucky, they're taken care of there. But I'm in the thick of motherhood. I haven't toilet trained my three-year-old, I'm constantly yelling to get the potty or go to the toilet. I don't feel, I'm not out of that crazy season of motherhood as well. And I really enjoy doing school pick up and drop off and talking to the mums.
I guess in an ideal world I work two to two and a half days a week and still do drop off and pick up and I'm not mad about handballing swimming lessons but things like that. Every week is quite different but we have been rostering things out to try and get it. Also, it's such emotional work too. I can't do more than three episodes because I've had plenty of therapy in my time and I feel like I'm in therapy sessions with people when we are doing these recordings. I can't do more than a certain amount because emotionally I take that on as well.
It's huge. I know when I did my interview with you, there's stuff that will come up in a conversation that you haven't thought about for years and you are holding space for all of that plus anything else that just might randomly come into their mind or that they've suddenly realize, I remember recently I saw birth time, is that what it's called? The documentary? I hadn't even realized I'd gone through a birth trauma until that because you sort of block things out. I can imagine how it takes all of that. Coming into the book, which is going to be a massive resource for people, what are resources that have helped you, like when you started working on this book? I know you've had people that you've gone to, but were there any books or online articles or anything that was like how to write a book?
I know when I did my book proposal, even though I'd studied it. I googled how to write a book proposal because it needed to be sent that afternoon. I always think, thank God for all those blogs out there because they helped me pull that together. Was there anything that has helped you that, whether it's the book or you know, working through imposter syndrome or anything else that has come up in the last few months for you, is there anything that you would say that was a really good resource and I'd recommend it to anyone who's listening?
I can't really, because my answer to that is Jodi because she just wrote a book with Murdoch so she knew and her book was coming out at the same time as ours. She's like, so November we'll be doing this, we'll be in the thick of this, and by this time we'll probably be doing this, and thank God because she did all that not knowing, I mean her background, she's a writer and a journalist so she's, she's very confident in the writing component. But it's quite a different thing to know the process of the time of your books. Also, I'm like, “What do you mean we submit it a year before it comes out? Like what's happening in between? How long does it take to print a book?”
All the things and then like, I'm trying to decide color tones and get an illustrator and things. But it was funny because of the initial dot points I sent to that publisher and I feel like I should send her the book and go, this is really what I was capable of, but I didn't understand what you were asking at the time. Jodi's like, “Here's the template they gave me for my first book, so let's do this.” And I guess the easier part of ours was that birth and pregnancy are quite sequential. We were like, "Okay, we're going to do the first trimester, what are we going to have in the first trimester? What are all the things?” And then we could chunk it. I got no idea how when we often say that like how would you write a novel, I don't know how you would break that down and things like that.
But we were lucky and it's almost a recipe in a way of how to structure and we could chunk it in that way. And then we submitted it in that way as well. We said like here's the first trimester I sent that through on the first deadline or we broke down the deadlines in that way as well. because it's 432 pages. It's a very big book. And then we had to do because it's medical, we needed like references and all of that sort of stuff, and all that's changed. I remember in uni trying to write out my no bibliography notes or whatever and she's like, "No, somebody will do that for you." It's like, wow. I was just guided by the process and we had a really good open relationship with our publisher and our editor and I think that's essential because if you don't get along there's a lot of talking and we didn't actually have a lot of pushback on anything either.
That was also fortunate and we handed it in early so we were favorites. It's interesting you mentioned in the beginning how you did that episode with your publisher and I remember listening to that and I sent it to Jodi and I really, it was a real moment where we felt like we are so lucky that this opportunity came up and we've had the opportunity to do it. Not just that it's been successful, but that somebody said, we'll give you the opportunity to do it because I can't remember the numbers now, but it's so hard and I feel like people will be listening, going, I've been trying to get my manuscript over the line for years and someone just asked you. That's not lost on me either. I feel very fortunate to have had the opportunity to do it.
Amazing. One more business question before you finish up because I know you've got TV stars to talk to. I wanted to ask, and again, I'm putting you on the spot, something that comes up a lot with different business owners is I've got this product and it could fit this audience but it could also fit this audience, and I'm not sure who I should market it to. In a book about pregnancy, the number one audience is the woman having the baby. But you also have, like I said, my anesthetist that was in the operating room when I had my cesarean listen to it.
And obstetricians and nurses and midwives and doulas and all the support people, people who sell supplements and naturopaths and everyone listens to your podcast. I'm assuming that a lot of people also buy that book who are not pregnant, who don't want children, or who have passed that stage. How did you write the book knowing, did you just go, it's for this particular audience and all these support workers and people on the periphery can just read it as they want? Or were you conscious of like, midwives are going to be reading this and doulas are going to be reading this? How did that work? Cause I think that's and apply to anything that people are Launching.
I think we did think this book is for pregnant women, whether that's your first pregnancy. I mean I guess mostly we aimed at it first-time mums and their birth support team. But the whole time we were like, we know that. I'd love to know the percentage of my audience who are in that space. But I know that the podcast is certified professional development for midwives. I'm very hopeful and that's why word of mouth in that environment has been instrumental in the way my show's grown as well. I should have mentioned that earlier. But a lot of midwives then say those antenatal appointments and in the meantime listen to Australian Birth Stories. I mean we're hopeful that they say and read this book and then come back next week because they have like 10 minutes, 15 minutes to do all their checks and they don't have time to educate you on all of this, even though I'm sure many of them would love to have our long appointments and be able to teach you.
We are really hopeful that the book helps bridge that gap for them as well. But I think the actual reader, we address the reader as you and as the mother. We really are centered on them, but aware that there's going to be a lot of eyes on it as well and it's being stocked in women's health physio places and a real variety of different spaces where pregnant women go. But it's for the pregnant woman and hopefully, everybody else thinks it's wonderful as well and can recommend it.
Thank you so much for taking time out of your packed media schedule to talk to us. I'm so thrilled for you. I think it really will change the game. I mean there's one book out of America that most people have read and it is so outdated. And it's not relevant to us and it doesn't include so many other variables that can happen when you're pregnant. Thank you so much for coming in and massive congrats. I can't wait for you to just experience all the positivity that is going to come your way. Are you celebrating tonight? Are you?
I am. I'm staying in a hotel with my mom tonight because tomorrow I'm being interviewed on Radio National by one of her favourites, Patricia Karvelas. I said how about we stay in the city and then you can meet her in the morning? My mum has been cutting out the newspaper articles and listening to all the interviews, so it'll be nice. It'll be a nice time tonight I think.
That's so wonderful. Congratulations and well done on everything and congratulations to Jodi as well. We'll link to it in the show notes, but thanks so much.
Thank you for having me. See ya.
Bye.
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I love my chats with Sophie. I'm very lucky to get to chat with Sophie quite a bit, but I absolutely loved today's chat all about her brand-new book, alongside Jodi Wilson. It is called The Complete Australian Guide to Pregnancy and Birth. If you know somebody who's pregnant, if you work in that space, or if you have a relative who is pregnant, then definitely make sure you check out that book. It is a wealth of information. I've had a look through it myself. I am planning to not have any more children, but I just wish that something had been around because as Sophie talked about in today's podcast, there isn't a huge amount out there. I spoke about this in the podcast, as somebody who's gone through a miscarriage, I feel like that is a massive part of a lot of women's pregnancies unfortunately.
It's something that is just not spoken about enough. And not just that, maybe traumatic births or maybe going through IVF or other things that I think sometimes people shy away from. I think the more that women can be open about this and the more resources like this incredible book The Complete Australian Guide to Pregnancy and Birth, the better it is for everybody. Not just those women but their entire families, communities, and places of work. There are so many people and, and lives involved with the birth of a new child. As I said on the podcast to Sophie, she has not just created a podcast and now a book, but an entire education hub. If you are interested in that, Sophie's actually running a sale if you're listening to this in real time.
If you are listening on Thursday the 16th of February, then you can check out the sale over at australianbirthstories.com and you'll be able to find courses and all sorts of things over there for a discount. If you are in that space, in that season of life, definitely go on over and check it out. As I said, the website is australianbirthstories.com. I would love to know what you took away from today's interview episode with Sophie Walker of Australian Birth Stories. As always, I'm going to pinpoint two things that really stood out for me. The first, I guess is Sophie talking about her collaboration with Jodi Wilson, who is a co-author on this and also runs her own business Practicing Simplicity. And I love that Sophie said it's also my duty to tell people that I have other people working with me. I have a team, I have people that help because sometimes when you're looking into a business, you can think that person is doing it all.
In Sophie's case, I've got three children, I'm running this incredibly successful podcast, I'm doing all these massive brand partnerships, I am selling courses, I am creating courses, and I'm also creating this massive tomb of a book. And to think that's all being done and isn't she a superwoman? Sophie is a superwoman for sure, but I love that she brought in I also have help. And I knew that I couldn't do this to the extent that I wanted to by myself. I brought in incredible people like Jodi Wilson. I love that she points that out because I often talk about Yricka, who's my assistant, and Scott who's an amazing editor behind this. And we have had a graphic designer, Ashley Simonetto, she's incredible. We've had lots of people that help. I feel like sometimes that isn't mentioned enough by different people in business.
Sometimes we put people up on this pedestal as if they somehow miraculously have more hours in the day than us or they can get more done. And you just want to think about pretty much behind everyone who's successful in business, there is going to be, whether it's a supportive partner, supportive parents who are looking after children there's a whole support team that's often there. I love that she brought that up. And the second thing that really stood out to me from today's interview is when Sophie talked about starting her podcast and she talked about I've done things in reverse. I started the podcast and created a product that people might want to download and then created an email list and so forth. She was talking about how so often people see a podcast as almost like an infomercial, I think was the word she used, that it's just a way of just talking about your product nonstop.
We both laughed about the fact that sometimes when you listen to podcasts, there's about a 20-minute intro and then a 10-minute interview, and then another 20 minutes, in the end, promoting something. Podcasts are a marketing tool and I'm very transparent. This is a great marketing tool for my business. However, it still has to be something that's valuable for people. It's something that people want to actually tune into or subscribe to. Same way with your content across social media or your emails or even on your website. I was reading somebody's About Page the other day, an interior designer, and I said to her, “Your About Page is absolutely fantastic.” Like, it gave me so much knowledge about her and so much emotional language was used that it really made me think, I would love to work with somebody like you rather than just stock standard or rather than very much promotional.
I loved what Sophie talked about, I started with the idea that I want to help people and I want to help people in their journey into motherhood and throughout pregnancy and beyond. She started with that in mind and she's kept that throughout every single thing that she's put out. And I think that's something that if you are looking at, I know a lot of people want to start a podcast. If you want to start a podcast, we have a course, How to Start a Podcast. You can find it at mydailybusinesscoach.com/shop. Speaking of promo, lots of people want to start a podcast. But you have to think about like what is your objective as a business, but also what is the reason that somebody would listen to that podcast. Just in the same way that when you put out social media content, why, especially today when no one follows anyone, everyone just consumes content.
Why would somebody actually want to follow you or subscribe to your emails or anything else? Like what is in it for them? And I think that's a really important thing to put front and center of your marketing. Yes, you have objectives as a business as well, but if you don't have an audience that's listening to that or subscribing or following or doing any of the things that you need them to do, then it's very hard to meet those business objectives. And you want to think about what does the audience need from this and how am I delivering that? There were so many other things that Sophie brought up that were just fantastic. Especially if you are wanting to publish a book, this is an absolutely incredible episode and valuable for you.
We'll link to everything in the show notes that Sophie mentioned. But again, if you are in that season of life or you want to have a look further at her resources, she's running a sale right now. You can find all of those over at australianbirthstories.com. The book is called The Complete Australian Guide to Pregnancy and Birth by Sophie Walker and Jodi Wilson. You can find that wherever you find your books. And you can also find a link to it over at australianbirthstories.com. You'll find the links to everything that we mentioned in the show notes for today, which is available at mydailybusinesscoach.com/podcast/282. Thank you so much for listening. I'll see you next week. Bye.
Thanks for listening to the My Daily Business Coach podcast. If you want to get in touch, you can do that at mydailybusinesscoach.com or hit me up on Instagram @mydailybusinesscoach.
