Episode 34: Why Small Business Owners Need To Take Risks and Be Kind - An Interview with Award-Winning Documentary Filmmaker Genevieve Bailey
In this fun interview episode, Fiona talks to her good friend, Genevieve Bailey, the award-winning filmmaker behind wonderful documentaries such as I Am Eleven and Happy Sad Man. Genevieve shares her journey when she started creating her films and her thoughts on the importance of going after your gut and why we all need to be kind not only to other people, but to ourselves as well. Listen now as Fiona and Genevieve give out helpful advice on important issues such as mental health during COVID.
Topics discussed in this episode:
Introduction
Catching Up
On Getting Started
Genevieve's Upbringing
On I Am Eleven
On Her Filmmaking
On Speaking Up
On Happy Sad Man
How To Reach Genevieve
On Mental Health
Working Through Uncertainties
On Having Mentors
Putting The Creative Work Out There
On Upskilling
Looking Back on When Genevieve First Started
On Her Legacy
What's Next for Genevieve
Conclusion
Resources mentioned in this episode:
Episode transcript:
Hello and welcome to episode 34 of the My Daily Business Coach podcast!
So, if you’re listening to this in real time, as in when the podcast is actually released, you will know that we are officially into October. What you may not know is that October is National Mental Health Month and what could be more important for every single person in the world right now than their mental health?
2020 has been one of the hardest years we have ever faced as people, as small business owners, as a community at large. We have been challenged and tested and had obstacle after obstacle come our way. We have also witnessed incredibly positive changes happening as well, in terms of a global opening up of conversations that REALLY need to be had around racism, privilege, climate change, power, corruption, trust in government, technology and the role it plays in our lives, family and so much more.
It has been a FULL ON year and it has, for many people, been one that has really had them questioning what’s most important and finding ways to focus on what they are grateful for and what they can control. My guest today is someone who is passionate about opening up the dialogue around these things, particularly mental health, through her work.
Genevieve Bailey is an award-winning documentary filmmaker based in Australia and the woman behind Proud Mother Pictures. She started her career two decades ago and has had her two feature films, I Am Eleven and Happy Sad Man screened in more than 50 countries. She has been the recipient of more than 30 awards for her work, but, as she discusses, it’s the impact her films have on the everyday person that really lights her up.
I Am Eleven was released in 2012. It’s a beautiful film that captures what it’s like to be an 11-year old in countries all over the world. The film took more than seven years to film and produce and in this interview today, Geneveive talks about how she stayed motivated and what it took to get that film into cinemas and out into the world.
In 2018 Genevieve released Happy Sad Man and I was fortunate enough to be in the audience at the premiere at Melbourne Internatioanl Film Festival. I laughed, I cried and had all the emotions inbetween. It is, again, a spectacularly moving, warm, funny, heartbreaking and important film that every single person should see. As a mum of two boys I am always looking at ways I can help them become kind and compassionate people, who are in touch with their feelings and open about how they feel. What Genevive’s documentary does so brilliantly is showcase that mental health impacts every sector of society, it doesn’t discriminate. From the famous through to the unknown, old, young, it finds its way in. And if we can create a space fir people to feel more comfortable discussing their mental health challenges, we can change the world for the better.
In this interview Genevieve talks about how she created these films, what its like running a creative small business, especially during Covid and when things like events and cinemas and the arts have been, largely, shut down.
I am so proud to call Geneveive a friend and I’m so honoured she agreed to be interviewed for the podcast. Personally, I am in awe of all she has done, often on a shoestring budget, and of who she is as a human. This year has been tough on everyone and I’m no exception. Geneveive has been someone I have turned to with my own business struggles and she has always found a way to help me see the positive side of things and to focus on what’s important.
I hope you enjoy this, my interview with Genevive Bailey, of Proud Mother Pictures and award-winning documentary filmmaker.
_______________________________
Welcome Genevieve Bailey. How are you?
I'm great. I'm excited to be talking to you.
Oh, I'm so excited to talk to you, as always. How is 2020 going? Like what a massive rollercoaster of a year. How are you going in 2020 and how has your business been impacted by coronavirus?
Yeah, well, we release Happy Sad Men, which is a feature documentary about men and mental health and emotions in cinemas in November-December. So I toured around Australia with the film. And I'm so glad that we did have that release prior to COVID entering our lives. So I did a did a big national tour around Australia in cinemas and met audiences all over the place. And that was really amazing. And I am really passionate about mental health and belief in the power of storytelling.
And so when COVID hit all our screenings, public events and things like that to be cancelled, obviously, as lots of people can relate to things being turned upside down. But in a way, I think making the film and exploring mental health in my work over many years, it put me in a pretty good position to as much as possible, kind of reframe the perspective of this year and realise all the things I'm grateful for. And whilst it's been disappointing to not be able to take the film out into communities like we'd planned, unfortunately, and also fortunately, I guess, depending how you look at it, 2020 has highlighted the fact that mental wellbeing and emotional wellbeing is so critical. So I feel like when things begin to open up, we'll be going out and taking the film out to communities and seeing how it can impact people in a positive way. So, yeah, it's been difficult, but I'm very grateful to live in a place where people have been taking it seriously…
It's been a difficult year, but I also am very grateful. It's been a difficult year, but it's reminded me how important focusing on mental health is and how much we can all benefit, especially in workplaces, which is something that lets people who listen to your podcast would have been realising this year the impact on their business, but also on their own mental health and their staff as well.
Totally, totally. And I like, you know, that I love you. And I think the work you do is just so important. And I mean, it is just so important. And I think I just can't wait for people who perhaps haven't seen your films to watch them, especially everything you said. I completely agree with. I think this year has been a real awakening on all sorts of levels. And I think it's horrible and has hard as it has been. I think it's also surfaced a lot of like what is actually important in life and what's important in your business. How do you want to run your business and how do you want to be there for your staff and yourself as well? So thank you for that. A lot of people who are listening to this, you know, have heard about your films and, you know, they would have also heard about them in the intro just now. Your films have screened in more than 50 countries and they've won more than 30 awards, which is insane and amazing. So they have screened in more than 50 countries and your films have won more than 30 awards, which is incredible. Well done. Can you talk us through when and how did your business, Proud Mother Pictures start? And what was the kind of catalyst for that?
Sure. Thanks, Fiona. I studied film. I was always passionate about filmmaking. I studied it. I made lots of short films, screened them in film festivals. Got into directing music videos. I love music so much, so many of my friends and musicians. And I started making music videos and then was teaching at a couple of film schools here in Australia and then decided I wanted to go overseas for the very first time. And I didn't want to just hang out with backpackers. I wanted to make my first feature length projects. So I'd been working different jobs, teaching as well as shooting news, videos or news journalism. So saving up money. And then I realised actually, I want to I want to move from shorts into feature length, which is a big step. And that's when I set up Proud Mother Pictures. And so, yes, being running full well, I set it up in 2009 pitches. So eleven years now I live in being my favourite team. And and yeah, the name Proud Mother Pictures came because I was often shooting bands like photos and videos at gigs and thinking people would say, oh, how do you know the band or do you know the band or how you involved. And I'd say I'm like their proud mother because I love nothing more than watching people do what they're meant to be doing. That I've always gotten so much energy from is whether that's musicians or whether that's, you know, people doing what they do with their own lives or their family or sport or whatever it is when someone's in their element doing their thing. I just love watching it. So I feel like I'm kind of like a proud mother of people watching them. You know, I'm side stage sort of cheering them on. So Proud Mother Pictures was the name that I felt really reflected my attitude to the work, but also the fact that these films are like babies that you give birth to.
The gestation period is much longer than nine months. You gave birth and then you send them off into the world and you hope to have a good life. And so small business owners, I'm sure many people listening can relate to that feeling that they have human babies or not. Their business is one of their babies.
Oh, totally. And it's and it also it's such a I often say that to people who are just starting out. I'm like, you can plan. And I'm such a planner. I'm all for planning. But I'm sure it's very similar to giving birth. Like, you know, you can plan and you just don't know what parenthood is gonna be like. You don't know what the baby's gonna be like and you've kind of finding a way as you go. It's both of those things grow your business as baby. Totally love that analogy. Speaking of baby little family, what was your upbringing like? And did you know when you said I went to film school and then I decided to go overseas? Did you come from a really creative family where your parents, business owners, were they with your whole family super into film or storytelling or theatre? What was your upbringing like? And did that influence what you've since decided to do?
Yeah, I actually, um, because I made a film with many children around the world, which I'm sure we can tell about, actually amassed a lot about my childhood. And I look back thinking I think about wealth and privilege. And I think that even though I didn't come from what's considered a wealthy family, I look at myself as being very privileged because I grew up in a home that was creative and that did celebrate creativity. And I was, you know, safe and clothed and fed and in an environment where I'm the youngest of four children and we were always encouraged to do what we love. So there wasn't a pressure on us to pursue any certain area of study. My mum teaches children music and my dad was a public servant, so they didn't run their own businesses.
But yeah, I just grew up with this really keen interest in moving images and that began when mum and dad used to shoot stuff on Super eight and then projected it onto a little screen in our living room, and I remember watching footage of mum and dad on their honeymoon and dad. Right. I need socks and sandals. And I was like, oh, yes, this is great to be. You know, to be in primary school and to be able to look at footage that haven't been on a sheet like a white sheet in my living room thinking, wow, I'm looking at footage of mom and dad when they were younger. And this is a snapshot in time that can be shared in the future.
So even from a young age, I thought, wow, isn't it cool that you can capture something that can live on even longer than you do? So I think that was the initial inspiration for becoming interested in capturing stories, very moving images. And we didn't own a video camera back then, but we used to borrow one from the primary school occasionally. So kids now have access. Many kids have access to a parent's phone, for example. They can shoot video once. But back then it was like a real treat to be had to use a video camera because we didn't own one. So I would go all out on the weekends with my siblings and make little. weird music videos to Debbie Gibson songs or little animations or dpecial effects videos where we'd turn the whole house on its side like the furniture and make it look like we're upside down and all these strange things. But it just it was a time of play, like I really value play. And as an adult, one of my best friends always tells me how playful I am. And I think that was because I grew up in a home where we were encouraged to play and feel creative and to feel to be safe, which as I get older, I realise so many children and not given that human right of safety and at the safe time. So I'm very grateful for that.
Wow. Even just I would also agree with your friend that you are very playful and you're very kind and you always sort of looking on you're just just like this beacon of positivity. I know. You know, not 24/7, though. One could be like that 24/7. But I feel like out of all the people I know, you are by far the just so happy and able to see the fun parts of life and the good in people and the good in situations. You mentioned before that, you know, you've made this film, I Am Eleven. It features a lot of beautiful children and talking about their lives and everything. And I have recently watched that again with my son, who is almost eight. And it's just magical to be able to especially now and we can't travel, show him all different people around the world and how, you know, not everybody's living the same sort of life you see. And you have created a lot of different films. But the two that I wanted to kind of talk about is I Am Eleven and Happy Sad Men. So let's talk about I am eleven first, which is the one with the children. It's this magical documentary focusing on children at the age of the eleven all over the world. I wanted to ask why eleven. Like, where did that idea come from? And can you talk us through how you actually made the film? Like how did you move from an idea to an actual film that went worldwide when so many awards was at cinemas and all of that stuff?
So when I was 23, I started thinking about this jump from short films to features. And when I was 21, I'd been in a serious car accident and when I was twenty two my dad passed away. So it had been a pretty heavy time as well as graduating from university around that time. So I thought to myself, I want to make something that's hopeful and positive. And I feel like there's so many films out there and television shows that are really negative and I don't want to contribute to that system. Very telling. So I thought back to my favourite age in life and I decided that was when I was 11. And I thought, what would it be like to explore the lives of eleven year olds today, but rather than just in Australia, all over the world? And part of that inspiration came from when I was eleven, growing up in Melbourne, I had never really been more than like an hour away from my house, literally maybe two hours away caravanning with my grandparents. So I've definitely not been interstate. I've never been on a plane and I definitely never even considered going overseas. That wasn't an option in our house, whereas quite a few friends I went to high school had travelled overseas and I kind of thought, “Oh!”, but I just didn't really I didn't really feel like I was missing out on that, because as an 11 year old, I went to a small school in Melbourne and I had friends from Sri Lanka, had friends from Ireland, I had friends from Argentina, from Greece, friends from Fiji. So I was in this little school where I had friends all over the world. And so fast forward to being 23 thinking what would it be like for kids today growing up in a part of the world, perhaps without much diversity, culture, diversity, or perhaps with parents who are very narrow-minded or prejudice in their views about culture and race and faith. And I thought, wow, wouldn't it be cool if I could make a film that explores the lives of 11 year olds today that kids and adults could watch? That would be relevant to all of them, and especially now with COVID. It's kind of amazing to think that those people who have travelled around the world and and feel they might not get to travel again or people have never travelled and watched this film and travel in an hour and a half to 15 different countries around the world. So it was a massive labour of love. I made this film without any film funding or grants. I basically saved up my pocket money and got on a plane with a small video camera and went to Japan. And I look back now and I laugh at the fact that I didn't even interview one eleven year olds in Australia to make sure that they were interesting. I just thought they would be. I also having never travelled. I remember asking a good friend of mine who had travelled a lot. I didn't even know what size suitcase to buy. I remember going to the shopping centre thinking, Oh, I don't want to carry a bag because I'm travelling with this.
But hang on a minute. My video camera is really small and and very basic. I wonder if I should get a better camera. So I kind of laugh at the fact that I didn't I didn't know I was doing myself in full. I was gonna be travelling alone and for the first time ever whilst trying to embark on producing, directing, shooting a feature film. I do laugh at the fact that I didn't do any test interviews. I just thought, yeah, I was awesome when I was eleven. This is gonna be great. And I think that's a lot for that what some might call naivete, which is really I think it's very prevalent in how I approach business, is that I am willing to take risks and I don't pretend I know everything, but I go with my gut instinct a lot of the time. And for me, I felt that audiences would want to watch a film like that. I didn't know exactly how I was going to do it, but I started with that feeling that I want to make a film that makes people feel hopeful and energised. And I want to make something that amplifies the voices of young people when so often that traditionally, people, a lot of coaches and love generations have thought children should be seen and not heard. And so there's many different ways I can answer that question as to how it all began.
But that's how it started. And I went on a trip for three months and I came back to Melbourne and I thought, I've got enough footage to finish the film. And then I thought, well, actually I'd really like to go to a couple more countries, so keep saving up money. And so I went back to work and worked two or three jobs at a time to save up. And then I entered this arts award and I won. And the prize was actually a ticket to the UK. And my professional development, a little bit of a little bit of money. Think it was about deven and a half grand. Which I made last over many months. And so it's in U.K. and then I bought cheap tickets to go to Morocco or to France. So go away for the weekend and then go looking for eleven year olds to film with. So it was an amazing adventure. And every time I get back to Australia, I think I can't finish the film without going to China like I really need to shoot in India. Actually, I want to go somewhere East Europe. So what started as this three month adventure with my seventy dollar suitcase turned into actually six years of shooting Eleven year olds.
My mom always says careful. It sounds weird filming a seven year old around the world and then spending the best part of a year editing that and then releasing it into the world. So from a business point of view, often when people finish a film that then gets hopefully picked up by a distributor who will release the film. So similar to book publishers or record companies and labels launching music books, film industry, that's a whole another had to wear is to then get a film out into the world. So very long story short, I decided with some of my collaborators and one of my mentors that we had that five different distribution offers on the table, which was really exciting and amazing for a first time documentary feature maker. But long story short, one of my mentors end up saying to me, “I think you should do the distribution yourself.” And he also works as a director and producer and also distribution. So he knew what the work load would be like. And he said, I don't think anyone will work as hard as you guys do because it's just not possible when you have multiple films to release to put in the time and energy. So similar to your episode talking about your books and publishing. There's definitely pros and cons to every pathway to getting your work out there.
But for me, I'm really grateful that I had that advice to self-distribute. It was a huge job, a huge learning curve. But in that being a really, really amazing, rewarding experience. And the film went on to have an amazing life in Australia, in cinemas in Australia, as well as we took it to US and we managed the distribution in US cinemas. And it's gone on to play in festivals and schools and homes. Yeah, in over 50 countries.
So I thought in London, I thought, well, yes. When you came over in and it's just incredible what you've done with that film. But also the fact, like I remember when you were saying I'm running around the streets of Melbourne putting up posters about the film and you were doing this all so much work yourself. And it's like, oh, well, all these people that were, you know, cause you were getting lots of media and press and, you know, there is this perception sometimes that people think, oh, she's won all these awards and that you wouldn't be the person running around the streets in Melbourne like a little girl? And I think there's lots to be said there. But sometimes from the outset, like even the fact that took, you know, six, seven years to do this. People can see a film and think, you know, a year or two, maybe six months doing this. But there's so much work that goes into one film.
Totally, I mean, I'm laughing at the fact that I remember very clearly running around with a sticky gun and posters and a turquoise parka in the streets of Melbourne. And it was a Friday night, no sticking up posters on poles around the CBD in Melbourne thinking they probably will get pulled down. But even if it is up for like twelve hours or 24 hours, it's better than nothing. And I remember this woman very clearly had a few drinks after work on the Friday night, and she saw me with what I was doing and said, What are you doing?
And I said, Oh, I'm putting up posters. And she went, Oh, I am eleven. Someone sent me to try to forget on Facebook. It looks really good. Yes. I was like, Oh, that's so good. It's my film. “What do you mean it’s your film?” “I made it.” “Congrats.”
And then another woman stopped me and saw me. I thought she was going to tell me off for putting posters up on like of traffic lights. And she goes, What are you doing? And I said, I'm just putting up posters. And she is all, what for? I said for my film. And I remember she said, “For your film?”
And I said, yes. What do you mean, your film?
And I said, I made it. She's like, You made it. And then she looked at it and said, I'm eleven by January Bailey. What do you. Genevieve Bailey? And I said, Yeah. And she just looked at me and said, What are you doing out here?
And I said, I'm putting up prices this opening weekend and it's the most important weekend because it will make or break the film if people come or not.
And she said, you know, there's companies that can do this. Let's do this. You can put prices up for you. And I said, know I know we're on a really tight budget. So we're just kind of hitting the streets and it's like, oh, my gosh, you know?
You do have to just do the work. Sometimes even in the book that I wrote, I talk about how, like, it's not hustle, but you do have to do hard work at times. And it's not all just, you know there will always be money to outsource X, Y, Z. Sometimes there just isn't. And you've got to have to film.
I just had a funny memory comes to making that which I haven't thought about for a while, which is when the David day was coming out, that was two thousand and thirteen. So David's was still a thing then. And we're also doing digital release. We were sticking posters up and we'd run out of sticky tape.
So we went to a hardware store and I remember buying the sticky tape and thinking because we were launching the DVD in time to Mother's Day. And I remember thinking, oh, a lot of people come into this hardware store. There's lots of trades in there. And I reckon those guys working long hours. Like, what are they buying for their mothers? So I said to the woman at the shop. Excuse me. I was just wondering, I'm actually still matter. And we're distributing dividends at the moment for a film which is coming out in time for Mother's Day. And so really great gift. And she was like, you’ll have to speak to someone. So. And I spoke to one of the guys working there and I said, would you be interested in stocking?
And they just looked to me like we don't sell DVDs. No, I know. Of course it’s a hardware store. But would you be interested in having someone at the counter? Because you're going to have a lot of people coming in here who are busy and probably haven't thought about a gift and have a little piece of paper that says gift idea for a moment. And if you sell them right and if you don't, I'll come pick them up and it will be no cost to you. And they were like, “Sure.”
So I went out to the car and got them a box. It's been like a week later I rang up and said, we've sold out. Can we get some more? And I was like, yes, I love that. I'm not embarrassed to ask the questions. And I love that I just had that idea.
And I didn't think about whether or not that would be weird. And so much of my creative life and business life has been not feeling inhibited by these kind of what's normal and not normal. How do I put it? Like just not being afraid to take those risks and have those sometimes funny, awkward conversations? Because the worst that they could say was no. In which case I go by some sticky tape and keep putting up posters. Yeah, I think that I've realised as years go by that that's a little bit unusual, that approach that I have and that sometimes, you know, people might be like, I've got a sibling, for example, who would say to me, like, if I was to run that idea by her. I know a hardware store is not going to want to stop the DVD. And so it's just a mindset like if I look at things thinking that's not going to be possible. No, that person wouldn't want to be in my film or that person, like my screen, my show. That person might want to create music for my film. Then, you know, that's probably what's going to happen. But I do have a very open and positive mindset when it comes to these things because I really believe it's possible and it's worth it. And so I try to share those little funny stories when I'm talking with people so that they can be reminded that so much more is possible than what is often first thought.
And that comes down to so much of our life experience and our childhood and how we've been raised and experiences we've had both positive and negative ones. And so I am really passionate about psychology and. And just out. Yeah. Emotional growth and believing that things are possible when often we’re told they are not.
I love that story because I think that happens. It should happen more if people, you know, like we've all done it where you've been, say even just small things like, say, for instance, I might be looking at somebody in a supermarket and be like, she looks amazing, like I should tell her I should go over there and be like, you look amazing. Well, you know, I love your earrings or just something. And then you think, no, I shouldn't give a compliment to some stranger. She'll think I'm crazy. But then you like if I did if I had given that compliment or done that one thing, you know, maybe it would have made her whole day. Maybe she's having a really crappy day right now. And I think I know that's not the same as like in promoting your stuff in a hardware shop, but I think it's that same idea of like we hold ourselves back a lot from doing things, just giving it a go. We're just opening up conversation. We've got all these different ways of communicating more and more and more. And yet we're not communicating as much in real life. If that makes sense.
Totally. I've actually spoken at a few events with child and adolescent and adult psychiatrists and psychologists and people have often kind of come up to me and had a chat afterwards. And I remember one well-known child psychologist who is speaking at an event I was speaking at because I made this phone about eleven years old. I was then booked to speak at events because I had some sort of qualification, because I know with kids all the time. And this guy did this presentation. And one of the things he mentions to the room was aside from our primary caregivers, parents or uncles and aunties, mothers, fathers, grandparents, one of the most critical things that determines so much about how adolescents like in terms of believing in ourselves, is to have someone who's not a direct relative, seeing us and hearing us and saying our worth and our potential and believing in us. And I look back and I can remember so clearly that for me, most I did have parents who encouraged me and loved and supported me. I had a teacher in grade three and four. And I think so clearly about the fact that she saw me and she saw my interest in creativity. And that stuck with me big time. And I was actually asked to speak an event for women in leadership last year. And I did most of my talk about [her]. And at the end of the talk, a lot of people in the audience were crying. And I was actually really interesting because what my school didn't realise is that I didn't even write my speech before giving it with those amazing women who were presenting that day. And I just felt like, what's the most important thing? I looked around the room and I thought, what do I want to talk about? Because I did have some thoughts leading up to the event, as most people do when they're in public speaking. But I just thought this is a room full of really interesting women and maybe about 300 women in the room. And I thought, actually, I want to kind of channel that idea that we need someone who sees us with my unlike me, straight. But what about if you didn't have that? You know, I had that and I see that as a privilege. But what about if you didn't have that? So I spoke to the room about her and I spoke to the idea that if you didn't have [someone like her], you can find one now. Well, can you be one? Is there someone in your life? Doesn't matter what age they are, particularly if they're young. You can be [like her]. And so it was so interesting because after that event, there was no drinks and celebration and a lot of people were coming up.
Yeah, but it just made me feel like I feel really lucky that I did I did have someone. I mean, I can give you an example. She asked my mom if it was OK, if she could trim a little bit off the end of my head. I've always had very, very long hair. And she was an artist. She used to paint and do ceramics and she wanted to trim a little bit of my hair and use it as a paint brush.
Well, I realised that might sound a bit creepy. And so I something like that we had. However, I thought, oh, that's so cool.
She's gonna be doing paintings with my hair, my hair. And I remember winning in an environment award for a little school project about the environment. And because she knew I was interested in art. She said, Oh I’m going to take it to some art galleries as well as winning this rosebush to be planted at the front of the school. So those seem like small things. But for me, I felt like, oh, she gets me right. That's cool. And so I think in business, often we can feel isolated and we feel like the daily grind and all the other struggles and the hurdles to jump across jump over. But having someone who sees me and for me, I've had someone who's been a mentor to me when I've been making my films and releasing them, which is that guy who recommended that I self release. I'm eleven. And his name's Robert Connolly. He's an amazing filmmaker.
He's done many amazing films himself. But what we don't realise is how amazing music, championing and championing and empowering other people. So as a young woman. You know, I started making I Am Eleven when I was 24. And then I was editing that when I was 29. And as a young young woman in the industry, unfortunately, you know, as many people will better relate to, you can be met with this assumption that because you haven't done it before, you don't know what you're doing. And I won't go on about that because people know I'm sure can imagine what that's like. But what what was amazing about meeting Rob is that at no point did he say your first time. You don't know what you're doing. Or you're young or inexperienced. He just sort of stood there and championed me and said, if I can help. Give me a call. Let me know. Every now and then, I'll have these really short phone calls with him because he's such a busy guy. But it was so exciting to have someone who'd like me. Greg saw me, saw that I was working in a different way, thinking outside the box and didn't ridicule that. I actually thought that was a strength of mine.
So I would say that anytime in life, finding that Miss Greg is something that we should all try and gift ourselves with Obey and Miss Greg to someone else, because it's I think it's been really influential. And just to add to that, I've tried to find Miss Greg for many years and I've never found on social media. I was thinking maybe she and I eventually found someone from my primary school whose mother had her email and wrote to her and she'd been living working in the Middle East and in Africa, in Asia, and this is Miss Greg had been all over the world and I wrote to her and she had recently moved back to Melbourne and was living like 20 minutes from my house. So I organised a little play date with her to meet up with her. And it was like so exciting. I was so excited. I can't tell you that when she walked towards me. We met at the Abbotsford Convent.
She walked towards me and we ran towards each other and hugged each other. And I felt like it was like a 60 Minutes episode of like the mother meets her child that was separated. And we just we just chatted and chatted all afternoon. And I told her about my filmmaking and, you know, about my life. And she walked me home and then said to me, I showed her the trailer for my new film. Happy Sad Man. And she got very emotional and said she's going to book tickets to come to the premiere. And when it opens in cinemas and then, as I say goodbye. We took a selfie and then she said, well, let me know if you ever need a lift.
I thought, oh, well, I'm an adult and I've got a car. That's so cute. Like, if I like if I'm stuck at a party one night. But I realised it was this like that idea if I ever need a lift. And it's true.
Thinking about her has reminded me how much we need. We need that someone who believes in us. Whether that's just in our personal life or in business.
Oh my God. I could just talk to you forever. I find these stories so inspiring. And they they make you think about your own life. And it's funny cause, you know, obviously recently I've put out the book and one of my best friends and I were talking about my well, because we went to school together. English teacher at school. And he nice. David McClain. And I was like, you know, I'm going to send him a copy of the book because he was the first person outside of my family and friends who said, “you can write. You've got to get an ability to write.” And he read out my like you do you VCA. Well, you know what? U10, whatever English. And he read them out to the level. And he'd read them out in class and he'd be like, everyone, take five minutes. Let's listen to this. And I was like, you know, at first you're like, oh, my God, I'm mortified. What if everyone hates them? But he just did it a few times enough to be like, you actually have a gift. You know, you're a good writer. And I think it's the same thing. Like somebody stopping and saying you were good at this. Or I see you. It from then on, I was like, yeah, I can't write. I can write, you know, with people like my writing or not. But it gave me an internal belief that I could do this.
Totally I'm I'm glad that you had that. And I, I would say that some people might feel like they need that more than others. There's some people who really feel like I need to be validated. I need someone to tell me I'm good at this. And there's some people who are a bit more willing to just get out there and have the go, regardless of whether someone's saying that they're able to do it.
And so I'm just really mindful about, you know, what determines whether or not we think we're capable of doing things. And I think a big thing for me, which I've been aware of for the last few years, but particularly during 2020 and COVID, has been questioning, how kind we are to ourselves. So anyone who's listening now, if you were to sing, are you kind to other people? Hopefully you can to yourself, hopefully. But sometimes the answer is no. And I often I've got a friend. I used to always say when I'd say goodbye to him, I'd say be kind to yourself. And after about a year, he said to me, you know, every time we talk, you always say to yourself as my saying goodbye. And I said, Yeah. And he said, Well, it's made me reflect on the fact I'm not kind to myself. And I said, yeah, know, that's why I say it.
But I didn't want to say, look, you know, I said I don't actually say that to everyone I know, but I can really feel it.
And I think sometimes it just sounds like a small thing to be kind to yourself. But I just feel like we have a much greater capacity to be there for ourselves and other people if we start with being kind and showing kindness to ourselves. And I think whether that's in your personal life or in family or in business, that it can be really hard when when you realise actually I'm not very kind to myself. And there's not some button. Right, that we switch where we suddenly can stop doing that. But I just think that this year's reminded me how important it is for us to completely destigmatize the idea of talking about difficult emotions and seeking help for them. So I think that being kind to yourself is something that there's lots of things I'm I'm not necessarily great at. And like all of us have got strengths and weaknesses in business. But being kind to myself is like a muscle that I've been working on for a while, because sometimes we have to accept that things are going to go in a different direction or a bit belly up like 2020 has. And. And I think I've been able to keep pretty positive this year because I've accepted that fact and the fact that I'm not going to be much use to anyone, including myself, if I'm if I'm not kind to myself along this journey that we're all embarking on.
Very wise words. And actually, it brings me onto what I want to discuss with you today as well, is that this podcast is going to come out in early October. And October is Mental Health Month here in Australia. I think it's worldwide, although I was looking it up and they said it may in some places, but in Australia at least where Genevieve and I are. It is Mental Health Month in Australia and the 10th of October is World Mental Health Day. And also in my late dad's birthday, and he was definitely somebody that was always talking about being kind to yourself and being kind to others. So part of the reason I wanted to have your interview come out is because the other big film of yours or the other big thing that I want to talk about today is Happy Sad Man, which you've mentioned a little bit. And that's a incredible documentary all about men's mental health in Australia.
And it is you know, I'm not just saying this, but it is by far one of the most important films that I've ever seen. I remember watching it and just thinking, how did we get to this position? And also, oh, my goodness, you know, at the time I had just Levi. But now I've got two sons. And so it's also that whole how can I help my sons have stronger mental health. And I think that everybody that is listening to be sick. I'm absolutely urging people, even if you're not in Australia to contact you or find out a way to see Happy Sad Man. Can you talk us through how you decided to make this film and why did you decide to make it, how long it took and also what you hope people will get from it.
So thank you, Fiona. I remember being so happy that you were able to be there and see the film at the premiere of The Big Screen. It was really emotional moment to see the film released and received by audiences. That's a big part of my practise as an artist is to not just make films, but to see people watching them and to see how they're received. And I've been so, so excited to see the film in priced in a way that it has been so Happy Sad Man explores ups and downs through the lives of five very different men in Australia - journeying from Bondi beach to the outback and alongside a war photographer traversing global conflict zones and also a farmer and mental health outreach worker out in the country and musical nomad and a sensitive, dog loving artist. So their portraits and very intimate, heartwarming looks into vulnerability, friendship and compassion.
And as you just said, you know, you're a mom raising two boys. We've had people in their 90s. Come on, watch the film. We've had teenagers come with their parents. We've had all sorts of people come and watch the film because mental health does not discriminate. And for me, trying to normalise the fact that this is something that we all go through ups and downs in life. It's been a big part of my mission. So the reason why I wanted to make Happy Sad Man. Well, one of the reasons is because I think we see a very narrow scope of what it is to be a man today. And I think that not only do men not benefit from that, but all genders, women, children, non binary people, non benefits. And we have a very stereotypical view of what it is to be a man. And so for me, I have lots of really interesting guys in my life and some of my closest friends and mentors and people who really empower and champion me are men. And so I thought, well, actually, I want to make something that shows our friendship and their lives and the ups and downs and how they manage their own mental health in a really heartwarming way. I didn't want to make a film about mental health that makes you feel horrible about the side of the world. But I did want to make something that addresses the fact that no one is benefiting from pushing this stuff under the carpet. And where we live in Australia, if you're aged between 15 and 44 and male, the biggest risk to your life is yourself. And those at this you know, those effects. And unfortunately, a lot of people wouldn't believe are true when we live in such a prosperous and relatively safe country. But, yeah, I could go on forever about why I want to make this film. But what I'm really proud of is that all the guys in the film have been so generous with sharing this story with me. I shot Happy Sad Man. I've a seven year period, so you get to know them really well. And I just think the more we talk about how to be there for ourselves, but also how to be there for the people, the better, because I'm sure everyone listening right now knows someone in their life who has gone or is going through a tough time. Maybe it's themselves, maybe it's a loved one or a colleague or friend. And so often we don't know what to do to be there for them. So we do nothing. And we're worried about stuffing up or worried about seeming annoying or nagging them. Or maybe you've got that friend. Every time we cheque in on them, you never hear back and you start to worry. And we don't really learn this stuff. At least I haven't felt like we've learnt this stuff. And I come from a family where people don't necessarily talk about their feelings that much or checking in on each other. And I thought, I want to get better at this. I want to understand how to be there for my friends and people in my life. So it was that initial enquiring into how to better be there, the people that made me also interested in how we can better be there for ourselves. So it's been a really massive journey.
And in some ways it's just the beginning. You know, making a film for seven years is one thing, but then releasing it into the worlds is the next step. So I'm really happy that we've been playing here in Australia and looking forward to releasing the film in other countries when it's safe to do so - community holes and men's sheds and all sorts of venues, but also screening the film virtually. So we're going to be hosting virtual events so that people can watch the film online and then join us for a Q&A afterwards and also enable workplaces, small businesses, large businesses, schools, community groups, whatever, to bring the film into the community and screen it and start conversations at a longevity.
So long overdue. And I think even seeing it at that premiere, remember, it was packed and I just like, so excited for you. And then afterwards a bunch of people went to a bar across the road and even then it was predominantly, I would say 70 percent male that were know people that identify as male, even the group there. And I just feel like a couple of my clients had come and it just opened up conversations that we wouldn't have had, probably otherwise. If I'm being honest about their mental health and what they've gone through and I think there's not a business owner out there who hasn't had, you know, especially if you've been in business for quite some time, at least some periods of your life where your mental health has really been challenged and pressured. And so I think the more that people can talk about it, the better. And for you mentioned that you are doing virtual screenings. And so I think how do I go to somebody, companies that need to screen this for their staff, let alone for themselves and their family, their personal relationships, people. If someone's listening to this and they're like, oh, my gosh, I want to do a screening, how can they? Is it they just go to happysadman.org Is that where they find all the information?
Yes, absolutely. If you go to happysadman.org and send us a message or on socials we're at @happysadfilm and get in touch. And it's really easy to bring the film to wherever you want it to screen in the world. And I would also just like to say, you know, this is a podcast. You can't say me or say the trailer. If you check out the trailer online.
The film is actually, as the name suggests, it's very happy, as well as sharing sad moments. And there's a lot of humour in it. And to me, that's a big part of, you know, my sense of play is carrying that through with the narratives and the people that I film. And there's a lot of joy in it. And I think often when we think about mental health stories or mental illness, we don't think about the joy that's involved and the fact that these people's lives actually a multifaceted and there are difficult times and really hard struggles. But there's also a lot of joy and humour and pathos and compassion. So I'm really proud that together with these guys that we've made a film that people laugh out loud in. It's one of my favourite things is to sit in the cinema and hear people laugh out loud.
And yeah, that's something that I'm really I'm really proud of.
Yeah. You should be so proud of it. It's just it's incredible. And even just the diversity in the people that are in the film, you know, like it's all like you said before. Mental health doesn't discriminate. And it's all people from all sorts of different paths in life. I'll definitely put happysadman.org in the show notes. And you can find the show notes, as usual at mydailybusinesscoach.com/podcast/34 as this is episode 34.
So mental health obviously we've talked about it and I know that it's something that you are so, so passionate about. And you and I are good friends and I have to say that you have just been such a massive pillar of support and such an incredible friend, especially in life's most challenging moments. Thank you so much. I always will never forget how you turned up at my dad's funeral and just did so much.
Aww, Fiona. I think that no one is living if we're not living in a world where we can lean in and be there for people, especially in times like that when you've just lost someone so important to you. So, yeah, your kindness radiates and everything you do in business and outside of business.
So it's been a pleasure to be there. And I'm sure many people can agree with me when they say that even even just the fact that you've managed to continue doing this podcast as well as releasing a book and a human over the last year. Yeah, it is super inspiring. So thank you for everything that you're doing for the community.
I know you've been met with that. Thank you very much. You captured you will actually get to start crying on your podcast. I'm gonna jump in. Thank you very much. But I know that, you know, I'd like that. Not just me, but you'll like that, too, to everyone in your life, including the people that work with you and for you and you. Do you have staff and different people that work with you? 2020 We've talked about it a little bit. It has to be one of the absolute toughest years ever for small business owners. And I think everyone has felt the impact to their mental health. I know for me, I have been riding the Corona coastar and I've had to put in place certain tactics to help my mental health. I literally sat down with my family and was like, okay, let's all say three things that we can control that will help us get through. You know, we're in stage four lockdowns and my son's been home for at least six months and we have a baby that's here 24/7. So, you know, my husband and I both still working and we've come up with certain things each day. So, for instance, I go for a walk, I listen to uplifting music. I have a cup of tea by myself. We have a hammock outside. I go outside, you know, and I have to be really careful. With even things like what we watch. My husband, I started this year watching Handmaid’s Tale. We were like, no, let's let's go a bit more light-hearted. And we've been chewing through the family well, which is incredible. But what advice would you have for small business owners right now? Like, what would you tell people? Because you have had so much experience aside from, you know, directly with the mental health and go with this with Happy Sad Man. But also, you know, talking to these 11-year-olds and talking to people just in general, it you're such a good person opening up conversation and getting people to open up. What would you tell people right now who feel they just can't get going? Or perhaps they're just so busy going, going, going. They don't even realise that they're neglecting their mental health.
I think that's a really, really key factor. A few things you said. There are some people going so fast and so hard that not realising that their mental health is needing more attention, but also like what you said then about you as a family, realising we should be careful about what we watch. That's a big thing for me. I have watched so little by way of film and television during 2020 because I'm really, really sensitive to what I'm watching. It's kind of like we think about it's important to reflect on what we're eating or how much exercise we're doing. But actually what we're reading, what we're seeing, especially during 2020 - something that I never overlook the impact that that's having on me. So lucky. I'm really mindful of having nature time for maybe at the ocean or being around trains and having time with my dogs and good humans and just being in my body like movement, like dancing. I go to the beach late at night when no one's around, regardless of COVID. It isn't like this is a practise that I've had for a long time. This is not a new thing where I will sing very badly and dance very loudly and no one's around and listen to really excellent music And for me, you know, I know people will recommend what works for them, you might have a friend who's saying to you when you're stressed, you should really try yoga or do you meditate? And that's like the last thing some people want to hear. When you're having a difficult time, when someone tells you should just meditate, it's like, okay, like that. So you want to do that. But different things work to different people. And so I would say, like, don't feel bad about the fact that what someone suggested doesn't quite work for you. The most important thing for me, I think, is that it's regular practise, whatever it is.
So for me, getting out and being around nature and and moving seem to good music. So even when I was editing the film, I think about the music that I listen to during those long days and nights of editing and having little dance breaks and stopping sometimes. I remember we were in the final stages with my beautiful composer Nick Huggins, riding the school bus admen, and we were literally on our final day together and I was about to fly out to Sydney in the afternoon and he said, we've got this. We've got like an hour left. We have to go to the airport. I said, Oh, good. Then I press pause what we're doing, and I say, I'm going to have a dance break. And I know Nick very well and I'm very comfortable if I have to dance in front of him and he not for him. For myself. And he said, what are you going to do? I said, I'm having a dance break. And I put on the song and he just looked at me as though, like, we do not have time for this. And I did my dance. I think it was Kiato of some of the great all literally or someone Maggie Rogers often danced. And then I did my three minute dance. I sat down and Mick looked at me and said, I take that back. That was a really good idea. And I said, you know it. The next fifty seven minutes are going to be so much more productive. I spent that three minutes in my body and moving and getting up. And so I would say that so many people say, I don't have time to meditate or I don't have time to do this and have time to do that. But actually. You know, all sorts of wellness podcasts, we're talking about this. But finding time is something that I think is like super, super important. So I would say that whatever it is for you, if it's dancing, if it's if it's like playing with a hacky sack, if it's hitting it ball up against a wall, if it's giving a dog a foot massage, which I also like doing whatever it is that gets you in that state of feeling relaxed. It has to be every single day. So, you know, for me, I'm not great in the morning. I'm better at night. So I'm feeling really good at night. I'm going out or, you know, in nature or in my living room and having a dance. But yeah, I'm waffling a little bit, but I just feel so passionate that people find what it is. And I know a lot of people listening, probably have kids like you do and have such routines that are really restricted at the moment.
But just finding even like a five-minute dance break, if you can't find a five minute that's breaking your day, then you need to have a 50 minute dance break. Yeah. Because if you can't find five minutes a dance and something's going on and you need a massive hug from yourself to prioritise that. So I sound like I'm banging on about this a bit. But I I'm so I'm so mindful of the pole being kind to yourself thing sounding like a meme on Instagram. But I really I really believe it. And I think the more we embody it, the better we're going to feel in so many aspects of our lives.
No, no, you're 100 percent genuine and you tell me this stuff over time and you have for many years. So thank you. And I totally agree. We have an eight 30 kitchen dance, which my son and I, we kind of came up when we were really over homeschool and I was like, okay, how can we make this more fun? And we both have it. And sometimes it gets like nine o'clock and he'll say, we haven't done the 830 kitchen dance. Okay. And literally we have like a Spotify list and he's chosen some stuff. I've chosen some stuff. And we just dance around and you do you feel so much better. You feel “oh, my God, you know, my other son hasn't slept. I'm tired. I've got a whole day work when he's going to end.” But just have that five minutes dance completely changes your mood. Like you're just like, okay, I can fix things now, like everything feels a bit better. So I completely agree with it. And if people, you know, there should be able to find time.
Yeah. And I think, you know, feeling gratitude and expressing gratitude also sounds like something that we hear a lot about. But I really believe that for me, enjoying other people's wins is something like when I see how well your book is doing and lots of people are posting about it, or I see a musician friend of mine, you know, is being, you know, recognised by more people or heard by more people or whatever it is. I get really excited for other people's wins. And I think that showing gratitude for the fact that we're able to do these things and pursue these things when so many people slide away for many, many years without being recognised. So for me, I think, you know, lifting other people up and championing whatever they're doing is kind of like the Miss Greg thing. Again, Mike, showing the kindness for other people and and just having gratitude sometimes just for the really small things, like I walk along the beach and just watch, like the cuteness going on between dogs or kids making sand castles or whatever. And it sounds like a cliche, but I feel like that in simplifying your life if whether you like it or not. During 20/20, hopefully some positives that come out of it is that we really cherish the moments that we have been able to continue with this, even though so much has been thrown upside down, just really cherishing the things that we, as you say, we can control and when so much sometimes feels out of our control.
Totally, totally. Totally. And on that note of things being out of your control, obviously we talked about your films and documentaries and they take years and years to produce. And then it takes a long time as well to get it out there. And even if you do decide to do the distribution like you did or go with a distribution agency, there's no guarantee in the end that it'll all kind of work out. And that's the same with so many businesses. You know, you could create a whole collection and get it made and launch it and then crickets. Or you could do an online course and send it out to the world. And you just don't know the same with the book. You know, you just don't know how it'll be received. How do you sort of work through that uncertainty or where do you seek advice or mentorship when it comes to your business, like you've talked about Robert Connolly before when you mentioned your mentors. Do you have any other sort of books or websites or podcasts or or people that have helped that you could recommend to people who are listening to this who might be like. I have no idea where to even start.
Well, it's something that I think you and I have in common is that we're willing to ask questions and get on the phone or email someone we don't know who might know, stuff we don't understand yet. And I would say that that's something that I definitely did in the past prior to releasing I Am Eleven is I contacted a lot of people who had worked in distribution before. And I remember very clearly one phone conversation with someone who, when I was talking about wanting to release the firm and cinemas, said to me, that is a big ask and long story short, and said, the fact that you think someone will drive to a cinema, pay for parking. Cue up. Look at all the films on offer and choose yours. And then pay 18 or 20 dollars to see your film when they've already paid for a babysitter and then pay for parking like it's a big ask to get someone to pay to see your film in a cinema. And I remember thinking I am aware of the concept of cinema. But this person said to me, I think you're better off just putting it straight to DVD. And I said, thanks. You think next year I see your advice. And then I remember speaking to someone else who said to me, all for your film, you want to put it in cinemas. I think you probably spent so much money on it already, of your own money because you didn't get funding and you've spent so much time. I think what you can do is get DVD without the covers. So then you have to get the artwork designs printed. So just get a 50 50. Yeah. A DVD from the shop and then just give the DVD. Just hand them out as discs without covers to communities and ask them if they'll play it just for free. And I share this because as much as it will make some people cringe. I remember talking to my mom about it and her saying, gosh, what's what are these? Why do they say that to you? That would put a lot of people off.
Now, my mom, knowing that I'm like a dog with a bone that didn't put me off, I said thank you for your time. I always say thank you that someone has given me that time and their thoughts. But imagine if I had let that stop me from even trying to get this film in cinemas. And so I say this because, you know, like I did mentioned, I didn't come from families a lot of money who were bankrolling this to this stuff. I did put myself out there and, you know, worked really hard. But at the same time, I took those risks with what people were telling me, basically, do not do this. And yes, that there was a good chance that it wouldn't work out. And I realise and appreciate. Let's be listening to this will have experiences where they did take a risk and unfortunately, it didn't work out financially. But that opening weekend when I ran around with, you know, to get type done with my partner at the time, you know, the opening weekend of the film was the highest grossing documentary in three years at the cinema. We opened that in Melbourne. And I was super, super proud that we didn't let that advice stop us from moving forward.
So, I mean, if I asked you a question often where we go and seek advice, it won't necessarily be what we want to hear. And, you know, you probably have listeners who would have had those moments where someone's told them that's not going to work and we just have to really go with I've got and be willing to accept in circumstances like the results might not be what we'd hoped for. And I think that's that's a big risk in running a small business. But for me, I just go with my gut and I listen to as many people as I can. And you know, do my research at the end of the day. I've just taken some calculated risk, which I'm glad have worked out. But yeah, I think sometimes it can be it can be a dangerous thing to let other people's definition of what we're capable of define what we are willing to have a go at.
And that's probably the main thing I would say from my journey that I would share that I've definitely had to tune in and listen to what I think is possible rather than what other people think I can do.
Yeah, I think that's so, so important. I interviewed a while ago Nick Shelton, who started Broadsheet episode 14 of these podcasts. If anyone wants to go back and have a look at that. But he said a similar thing, that when he was coming up with the idea for broadcast for broadsheet, a lot of people will act that's already been done or, you know, I mean, too big. And he just was like, you know what, I'm gonna take it through a filter and I'm gonna think, you already know this, this is gonna help me and I'm gonna keep doing what I think will work because I believe in it in my gut. And so I think it's a very similar thing. And it's funny how, like these people. I'm with your mum, like, how could people say that? I'm always of the like, I loved what you said before about Robert Connolly and how he said, you know, he wasn't like, oh, you new you were young or, you know, you don't know what you're doing. He was just willing to give you help and and give you sort of support that he could. When I started this business - coaching business, I just, you know, went on Instagram and put my little my dad. I didn't tell anyone that I was on Instagram and I sort of had all these other kind of people follow me who were doing a similar thing, you know, that whole like, oh, who's this competition coming into the market? And one of them asked me if I wanted to come to lunch and meet these women. And she specifically said, I'll never forget. She said, “I don't want you to speak when we're at lunch because these are really influential women. And I don't think you'll have much to bring to the table, but I think it'll be a great experience for you to come to lunch and just see what people are doing that are really making it work.” And I remember just being like, oh, wow, look, you don't know me at all. And you've just made that assumption from, you know, that you've got 10 followers on Instagram or something. It was really, really interesting. I was like, wow, I would never, ever have that put that on somebody that I didn't know. Like, you have no idea what people's backgrounds have been or just even, you know, their personality or anything. It's just a very limiting thing to be like you haven't done your human earned your stripes, therefore you can't come and actually have a seat at the table.
Yeah, I think I think my mom when we were growing up, I used to often say to us, you know, if there was a kid who threw my headband over the fence or a kid who took some else's lunch, and I would say “Oh, this happened or I did this or Ben did this, and mom would say to me, well, you never know what's going on for him at home.” Mm hmm. And I used to think, but they're just being mean or they're being naughty. What do you mean? What's this about going on at home? But, you know, it's growing up now and making documentaries and being very empathetic and compassionate person, I feel very deeply that we don't so often know what's going on at home.
So when you have a really what shall we say polite say, annoying customer or really difficult client or a really difficult service provider or anyone that you're working with. My mom used to always say it's more of a reflection of what's going on for them than anything to do with you. And I used to think that sounded very kind of like. But now I realise, no, it's so true. And I try not to be put off. You know, everyone listening as I have received an email or a comment from someone that's kind of been a bit like a bit off putting or be upsetting or infuriating even.
And I think for me, if I let that take over my day or my week or my months, I think that this is I can't you know, I know how you're feeling. I'm not saying enable people to treat me badly or inappropriately, but also just to realise that so much of the time when someone gives me advice that they don't think I'd better do something or that my film won't be able to reach this sort of audience or whatnot. So much of the time it's because maybe they had an experience when they went out on a limb and they spent a lot of their own money and it didn't work out. So it's unfortunate, but the same as with me. If I didn't have such a great experience with my film, what I'd be recommending people try and self release a film when they've just paid to shoot it in 15 countries around the world with every penny. I wouldn't be recommending it, but I'm careful when I am asked for advice because I think, well, it everything comes through my lens and my lens is different to other people's lens. And so that's why I try and share like I have today with you, some of those experiences where it hasn't been easy or where someone's kind of been a little bit off putting with their advice just to remind ourselves to go with our guts, as you know, and listen to that advice.
But also, you know, we know what we're capable of and how hard we're willing to work a lot of the time.
And on that, I'm going to ask you for some advice. You might be able to give it. It might just be what you said about, you know, going with your gut. But you are incredibly creative. And I know creative is a word that's bandied around a lot. But I would genuinely say that you are such a creative person and you're also someone who just takes action. I know you've talked about the films taking seven years, but throughout that, you had multiple, multiple millions of various different periods where you had to take action and take action again and take action, you know, get the plane ticket to Japan and come back and save and go again. And I'm just in awe of what you can create. And often it's not 70 years. It's a very quick like. Recently, you created this beautiful film. Let Me Be Around. And, you know, we were messaging back and forth. And you you were like, I'm going to do this and I'm going to shoot tonight and I'm going to do this and I'm going to get done. And it just so quickly got done. And then when I was watching it and I think we're on a video call and I just started crying, it was like, “Oh, my God, this is amazing.” What advice would you give to someone who's perhaps worried about getting their creative work out there? So, you know, if they've got a fear of being judged or feeling like it's it's not yet perfect or how do you just make it happen? Like, how do you not overthink things, even with your film? Even the fact that to accept me is at some point you have to press go. So.What would you tell somebody who's sort of sitting on something or is where he's just like, oh my God, you know, it's going to go out there and be judged?
Yeah, I think, like, Let Me Be Around the shot that you just mentioned, which I've just finished. And there's nothing like a deadline. Right. So it was World Suicide Prevention. Coming up, and I thought that's in a week. I want to make something and launch something in time for World Suicide Prevention Day, and that's September 10. I'm going to do that. And then I thought to myself, well, maybe just do it for October. Mental Health Month. And I thought, no, I want to make a video. So Let Me Be Around. Which is one of the single songs from Happy Sad Man that Lisa Mitchell and Nick Huggins sing. And Nick wrote the music. And it's a beautiful song. And I want to make something that's like a tender hug that people can share on social on World Suicide Prevention Day that's actually warm and compassionate and not just facts figures. So you have to do it by next week. And so sometimes nothing like a deadline. And as you know from our checks during that week, I wanted to have a diverse range of people in the film. I wanted to be representative of the diversity in Australia. And I was really passionate about making sure I got done in time. But I think for me, it's just not being afraid. In terms of your question about not being afraid to press go and put stuff out there. It just comes down to self belief, but also realising these things are bigger than me. This is not really like a exercise in… I don’t know. I don't wanna talk about ego, but I often have friends who watch their films and then think I can't watch it anymore. I don't enjoy watching their own work. So how should I put this. For me, sitting in a cinema, watching people watch my work is my happy place because it reminds me the film is so much bigger than me and the film is not my film. The film is a film that I've made in collaboration with participants who are sharing the stories with the composer, with a sound designer, with a colourist, with all these different people who have collaborated. So I love watching my work and seeing it as such setting that's much bigger than me. That will live a lot longer than I will. So I think I would encourage any creative people who are worried about putting them. They work out there.
Remember that it's like Proud Mother Pictures is my company name. It's that they're our babies and we care about them, but also let them go out and have a great life. Right. Like, rather than holding them back and having them on a hard drive, or having them see the computer and being scared. Like, I would just really encourage people to remember how how lucky we are. A lot of the time that we can create these things and put them out into the world and and let them have a great life, because that's something that I have really enjoyed, is that my my films have these lives and reached people, some of them who I meet, some of them I'll never meet. And you never know the impact that the work you're doing will have on someone else. I wish that every time someone thought to compliment you, Fiona, or anyone else listening. I did. But as you say, a lot of times people don't. But when I receive emails from people around the world with really interesting, kind and passionate reflections on my work, I think, yes, this is so important. I'm going to keep going. So do whatever you need to do to share it with people close to you. Before you are comfortable finishing it. But I think sometimes we have to get out of our own way and let whatever we're making have its own life and thrive.
Such an important thing for anyone in business at all, and not just in front of a film or books or I think to earrings like I, I often will have clients and they'll say, but I make a product. How is that helping somebody? I'm like, oh my gosh, I feel amazing when I put on big earrings. Like I just I feel like I'm pumped up and pepped up for the day and I feel like, you know, just never underestimate whatever it is that you're putting into the world, how it can impact people on all sorts of levels. So that is an amazing lesson that you shared. But do you have other things like, say, I'm not afraid to kind of areas of business that have been the biggest learning curve for you or things that you've had to overcome or upskill on or do mindset work or other things in terms of running your business? Are there other things that you'd sort of share about I need to upskill on legal or something else like that?
Yeah, I remember at one point being in a pitching environment, at a film market and being aware at the time that I was quite a lot younger than the other people who were in this pitching competition or so significantly inexperienced compared to most people. And I remember thinking they're going to expect me to have someone on my team who's twice my age and experienced. And I remember meeting with all the different people pitching and thinking, oh, they're going to ask me. “Hang on. Where is everyone asking your team?” And I thought. And long story short, at the end of the event, one of the organisers said to me, “how did you go?” And I said, yeah, I think I went, you know, I think I think it went well. And she said, You went very well because she was observing everything. And I said, “Now I just have to find like an executive producer or a producer to come on board.” And she said, Why? And I said, “well, because I just figured everyone would expect me to.” And she said, “Did anyone that you met with today ask you that? That you're going to have someone else?”
And I said no. But I just figure I will have to say, well, what do you need them for? I said, well, I need some help, like some legal advice and I need some help in terms of some contracting stuff and accounting stuff.
And she said, well, then why don't you just talk to a lawyer? Why don't you find an accountant? Why don't you ask them? And I thought, well, yeah. And that's stuck with me because it sounds like really obvious advice. But sometimes when you're managing 50 balls in the air, it's hard to stop and go, well, what's this the next thing I need help with, not the five year plan, the next twelve months of projections, but actually this week I need help with this week. So that's one thing that I learnt back then. It stuck with me. And the other thing I would say is I'm much like my approach to filmmaking and jumping on a plane and not knowing exactly what I'm doing is not being afraid when an opportunity comes your way, maybe a business opportunity or a contract or a deal that's put on the table, not being afraid to potentially adjust what those terms might be. For example, I remember when we were offered a flat fee for a distributor to release one of our films in a small territory in Europe, and they gave us a contract that included a small fee and a flat fee. And that's probably more than most filmmakers would expect or get from someone like that. And most shameful wouldn't end up screaming with that distributor anyway. So you could say that we should just be happy for what we're being offered.
However, I kind of thought to myself, having never done this before. I think the film could make more money than that through them. So long story short, they offered a flat fee and we came back to them and said, rather than an upfront flat fee, could we just get a percentage of sales? And they said, well, we don't normally do it like that, but okay, sure.
So looking back now, that was a pretty easy contract negotiation. We decided on a 50/50 split with them. Maybe it wasn't 50/50. But all I know is that the first quarter report that was sent through to us just in that first quarter, what we received from them was four times what the initial flat amount they were offering was. And they've gone on to continue to distribute that for several years, since every quarter we get reports from them. And I remember thinking, wow, I'm really glad that we do that, because often when we get a contract like that, you just think, well, this is what's on offer is probably not negotiable. So whatever area you're in, being willing to have that conversation with people and if you think there's a better way it could be done. And, you know, it was fair for everyone then. Then great. Do it.
So many good things. I think I'm literally just speaking to somebody. I mean, this podcasting group in on Facebook and this woman reached out and sort of it's like, hey, I'm starting to do speaking gigs. Has anyone got any advice? And we're going to have a conversation soon. She's in the US. Because I was just like, yes, I have a lot of advice. And part of it is that, you know, speaking up for yourself and sort of not, you know, being not being like, “Oh, I'm getting this great opportunity.” I should just be like, yeah, sure. You know, speaking up, if you think that you could get a better deal or that something's not fair. So I think that's really important that you brought that up. You have been doing this for a long time now. Genevieve, if you had to go back and do it all again, would you change anything or would you? Are there things that you wish you'd known then, that you know now that you'd sort of suggest to people listening to this?
You know, I've got to admit, I'm not much of a regret person. And I think partly that's partly because I'm an optimist. So the idea of sitting around and reflecting on things that didn't go right. I've been pretty lucky to go with my gut. A lot of the time that I need to step in and try again. I didn't make sense. I would say I'm not someone who looks back with regret that much in life. And so from a business point of view, I feel like the advice that was given to me years ago, which was look at what you need right now, what you might need, guidance with the support with right now, rather than worrying too much about long term all the time.
I think that was really good advice. But in terms of going back and changing anything, I mean, one thing that I would do, which isn't so much from a financial or business point of view, but is just to actually interview myself when I start a new project. So anyone here who is listening, who's starting a business would have had people who have said, take us back to win, insert business name here or product name first began or help. Help. What was the inspiration? And I get asked that a lot because my films often take a long time. People say, how did you start that project? And I think it's a fun gift to have to yourself if you if you've started a business recently.
You know, I spend 10 minutes this weekend interviewing yourself about your current business or your new idea or your new product or whatever it is, because in five or 10 or 20 years to look back at that moment when that idea was new and very alive and being born, I think that's something quite special. So, this is a pretty weird answer, but capturing those moments that we can celebrate how far we've come with our creations or our business, I think that's something that we can have gratitude for in the future. I don't mean that.
I totally think that's a great recommendation. I don't think it's weird at all. It's funny that you said, because one of the things I sometimes get my clients to do is video themselves for themselves in the future. Because when I decided to start my business, I was in Bali in July 2015 and I count the whole business plan. I came up with what I was going to do and I still had a full time job and it was an exec role, a paid very well. You know, it looks good on paper. And I made a video to myself and I still have it. And I upload it into my client's Trello boards. And I'm like, this is an example, because I made a video being like, do not go home and let the pressure of you've got a mortgage, you've got someone in childcare, you've got, you know. Do not let that get to you so much that you do not make this business happen because this is what you want to do.
And I like, you know, had this whole monologue to myself. And I watched that video so many times when I was like, you know what? Don't worry about I'm not going to resign. I'm just going to keep going because it was like a message to my future self. And I say to clients, even when they finish things like, you know, one of them recently finished a shoot that went really well. And she was like, I love that I planned it out my duties. And I did that. And she was like, no one had extra time. And I said, make a video recording, because next time, if you're, you know, tempted to rush things or scrimp on things, you want to look back at this and be like, this is why I didn't do that. And it's a message from yourself which is more powerful than any other person, you know, than me saying something to him. So I love that suggestion.
That’s so cool that you did that and that you still got it. I mean, I think even using voice, memo or audio function on your phone can be a great thing. Like, it's almost like a little audio diary. And I think in this year in particular, a lot of people have obviously been facing lots of challenges I never predicted. But I think I think documenting being a documentary filmmaker, I would say this documenting our own journey, even if it's been no one to ever watch yourself or listen to but yourself. I think that can be a really empowering thing because you can see what hurdles you've been able to jump over and what you've been able to survive, which is, yeah, definitely always worth recognising.
I love everything that you do, but I love that a few times. You've mentioned my stories and my films will go on to have a life of their own and outlive me. What do you want the legacy of your work to be? Like what? What legacy do you want to leave behind? Not that we're thinking horrible thoughts. I hope that we are very old ladies chatting and giggling. What do you want your film’s legacy is to be my legacy.
Interesting you should ask this because I was looking at the back of your book, this prophet right here, and I looked at the back cover, says that your book will leave you feeling empowered and excited about your business. And I was thinking that feeling empowered and excited to emotions that I enjoyed very much. And when it comes to the legacy of my films, I hope that my films can encourage audiences to show more interest and more kindness, not only towards themselves, but to other people in their lives and people they'll never meet. So I think a lot of the time as a kid, mom would say that people act out of one of two emotions, level fear. And I think so much intolerance and so much negativity and heighten will comes at a fearing people.
That a different from us? And I feel like filmmaking is a really amazing way to share stories and Hackable will get to know people. They may never have met otherwise. So Happy Sad Man and I Am Eleven are both examples of me exploring people's lives with them and sharing them with an audience that then that audience can feel enchanted or inspired or intrigued in a way that I feel only brings positivity to their lives and people around them. And like I mentioned earlier, there's so many TV shows and films that I think are really negative. And so I hope that my films will be remembered and enjoyed for many generations to come as being hopeful and energetic and playful and empathetic pieces of work that encourage people to be kind and, you know, #followtheirdreams. I feel like if you don't know me, some of these things might sound quite cheesy, but I really supposedly believes it has the ability to like really if you look back at the film that you loved as a kid and you grew up with and think about which one's stuck with you, they were all just little ideas in someone's head that they put onto paper and that they ended up making into a film. So I believe storytelling and documentaries are like my church and I really I really believe in storytelling. And I'm excited about doing it forever. Hopefully that’s the plan.
So how can people connect with you? What's next for you? And I know you mentioned before the screenings about Happy Sad Man. And I'm really excited for people that are listening to this, especially if they're listening in real time and they hear this in early October to get on that. So, yeah. Where's the best place for people to connect with you?
Yes. So on an Socials at @happysadfilm, there's the Let Me Be Around film is on that. And I made it as a digital hog to send to someone that you care about. So I would love anyone listening to share. Let Me Be Around with someone they know. They felt the film. The song is from the soundtrack, which is all about being there to someone. So I'd love people to connect and share that with someone they know. And then. Yeah. If they want to cheque out, I Am Eleven.. Come as well and share that with an 11 year old. They won't know or share it with someone that you knew when you were eleven. We had all these great screenings that people were turning up saying we were friends of my eleven and we can watch it together.
I'm also about to start producing this admen podcast and launching a portrait series and interview series, photographic portrait series. So yeah, if you go to happysadman.org or go to iameleven.com and sign up to my mailing list, I can send you Nigerian bank scams and things like that. But yeah, I'd love to hear from anyone listening and hear about what they're doing and where they are in the world as well because yeah, I'm sure there's a lot of interesting people who listen to your podcast.
_______________________________
How wonderful is Genevieve Bailey. She is just a delight to talk to and everything she said and all of her advice that is 100% who she is. And I'm just so honored to know her. And I'm so thankful that she said yes to coming onto the podcast. So as we mentioned, October is Mental Health month. And if you're interested in to perhaps getting in touch with Genevieve and doing a screening of Happy Sad Man you can find out all the information over at happysadman.org. And you can also find out more about Genevieve and what she does at proudmotherpictures.com. And if you're interested in checking out, I Am Eleven perhaps seeing where it's screening near you or how you can get your hands on a copy of the film, check out iameleven.com. We watched it recently in our house again, just on iTunes.
And I also know that SBS on demand in Australia has it as well. So there are definitely different ways to connect with Gen. Um, you can also go over to Instagram and it's @happysadfilm. I'd love to know myself, what you took away from our conversation and feel free to get in touch with us hello@mydailybusinesscoach.com or just find me on Instagram at @mydailybusinesscoach, send me a DM and tell me what came out of that conversation for you.
For me, I absolutely love how much she talked about being kind to yourself. I feel like this is definitely something that we can see on social media and Instagram posts, but we don't do enough. And I see that firsthand, you know, I do do a lot of one on one coaching with different business owners at all sorts of levels of experience and time in business.
And I feel like there's a common thread if which is people are very quick to tell me what they're bad at, what they can't do, what they don't do. Right. You know, they see all their flaws and their faults. And often I'll look at them and be like, Whoa, you know, let's stop the negative self talk for a second. And I think it's something that I need to learn as well. Like I'm constantly reminding myself be kind, this is all you can do right now. Or this is a particular situation or you can't control this or you can't control other people. Um, and I think it's definitely a really important lesson that we just never really need to stop learning. We always need to remind ourselves, be kind, be kind. I mean, we would definitely never speak to our family or our friends, uh, in the way that we speak to ourselves.
And I think it's, it's a really, really important lesson and reminder to everybody out there listening, especially anyone running a small business in 2020, be kind to yourself.
The second thing that I really took away from what Jen had to say was to follow your own instinct and to trust your gut and yes, you know, seek opinion, research things. But if you believe in what it is that you're putting out to the world, whether it's a film or a book or a collection or a product, you know, stand by that. In my book, I mentioned, um, you know, being your own best sales person and really believing in what it is that you have to offer. And I love that she's put out a lot of different things, but two incredible documentary feature films that have made such a huge impact around the world. And perhaps you wouldn't have done that if she'd listened to some of the opinions and ideas and suggestions that probably were given to her in a positive light, you know, like she mentioned, maybe they've gone through something and that's why they're giving me this particular suggestion, but she had the self-belief to say yes. Okay, thank you
For your opinion, but I'm going to go in a different path. And I think that's such an important lesson to continually keep reminding ourselves of as we run our small business. So that is it for this episode. As I mentioned in the episode, all of the show notes, including links to everything that Genevieve mentioned is over at mydailybusinesscoach.com/podcast/34 as this is episode 34. If you love this episode, I would love it if you could leave a review that just helps more small business owners be able to find great tips and insights like Genevieve gave in today's episode. Thanks so much for listening. See you next time.
To check out Genevieve’s projects, click the links below:
HAPPY SAD MAN www.happysadman.org
Instagram: @happysadfilm
I AM ELEVEN www.iameleven.com
Instagram: @wheniwaseleven
Facebook: @iamelevendocumentary
