Episode 370: Juliet Miranda Rowe
In this episode, Fiona chats with Juliet Miranda Rowe, a seasoned artist, writer, and educator. With over a decade of experience in diverse creative industries, Juliet shares her journey, from working with major brands to exploring various artistic mediums. Tune in!
Topics discussed in this episode:
Introduction
Learning the importance of branding
Importance of applications and financial sustainability
Challenges in the Industry
Embracing creativity
Prioritizing personal well-being in a career journey
Mentoring and encouragement for aspiring artists
Conclusion
Get in touch with My Daily Business
Resources and Recommendations mentioned in this episode:
“Anytime you can maintain gratitude for where you're at, you're going to get to a more satisfying place. Because when I have interpreted my existence as miserable, it's only ever brought me more misery. It's like neuroscience and also spiritualism that we all talk about and it's like the things you focus on are the things that you see. I think that's it. As well as like you're never also going to get to a point in your career that you're like, “I've made it and this is the end, dust off my hands.” Like we're all done and dusted show's over. Every week is a new struggle.”
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Welcome to episode 370 of the My Daily Business podcast. Today you're reading to an interview and it is with somebody who's super curious, super creative, and someone whom I just have such an enjoyable moment whenever I get to talk to her because she's really intelligent and just funny and human and just wonderful as you'll get to see. Today is the last interview for 2023 and I just want to say a massive thank you for continuing to read this podcast, to subscribe, to share it with people and to share it on social media. We still get so many DMs and I say still because many people start a podcast and it kind of might do well for six months or a year. We are three years into this podcast and 370 episodes and I do not take it for granted ever when we get sent a text or somebody leaves a review or someone shares it on social media. I just want to say thank you from the bottom of my heart for another amazing year of having this podcast.
Let's get into today's interview. But before we do, I just want to of course pay my respects and acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians on the land on which I do these interviews and I get to meet these amazing people and that is the Wurrung and Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation. I pay my respects to their elders, past and present, and acknowledge that sovereignty has never been ceded. Let's get into today's interview.
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Today as the last interview for 2023, it's my absolute pleasure to bring you a chat that I did a couple of weeks ago now with the wonderful and super creative and curious and always funny and just enlightening. Juliet Miranda Rose. Juliet is an artist, writer and educator based in Melbourne NAMM in Australia. She has more than a decade of working in local creative industries, with some huge brands, some smaller brands, and some significant and interesting work. Today we talk through how that has all happened and the types of art and creations that she works on and enjoys the most. She's had it for more than five years working in film, television and media. She's also been a mentor, a teacher and educator. She works in all sorts of spaces with all sorts of people. Now Juliet and I first met I think through Instagram.
I was following her on Instagram and then it was just such a delight when she applied for group coaching. Getting to know Juliet over the last year has just been wonderful, to be honest. She's one of those people that you would happily be stuck in some sort of really long-haul plane ride with because she'd be funny. She'd also be like, “Okay, this is enough of our talking. I want to watch this movie now.” She would be ordering all the fun drinks. She would just make it an enjoyable experience. From the very first session that we had in group coaching, somebody else brought up something quite vulnerable. It can be a challenging situation when people are first meeting each other because there are people who want to go full ball and share everything. Some people hold back a little bit and that just happens in every sort of group situation.
I remember when this person beautifully and bravely shared something and Juliet just came in with this response that was so human, so touching and just opened up the doors for everyone else to feel safe in sharing. I always remember that moment and there were many moments like that within our group coaching where Juliet would be asking these insightful questions or she would be making us all laugh or she would be sharing some incredible documentary or an article or study that she'd just seen. As I said, she's an absolute delight to be around. Her brain is just functioning all the time thinking, coming up with these beautiful things and she's such an artist in every sense of the word. I wanted to have Juliet on to talk about how she has created the business that she's created, how she has moved from different mediums and how she runs all of that in addition to the other things that she's interested in and the other creative pursuits she has outside of work.
I know that this is going to be a really lovely chat that you're going to listen to. I just want to thank Juliet for coming on. She's a busy person and to come on and share many ideas and tips and insights and also just humanity. That's I think one of the best things that I know. We're all human, we're not robots, but honestly, some people feel like robots and Juliet is not that. She's the person who is warm and caring and excited and just willing to get into whatever topic that you want to talk about in detail. It's just been a delight to work with her and a delight to have her on the podcast. Here it is, my interview with the wonderful creative Juliet Miranda Rowe.
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Hello Juliet, welcome to the podcast. How are you feeling about life right now?
I'm like a bit all over the place at the moment. My birthday is coming up this weekend.
Happy birthday.
Thank you. I normally have a personal existential crisis every year for my birthday, but it's come a little early this year with just general global existentialism. Personally, life is pretty good. It's an interesting time. My life is very grateful for it, immensely renewed a sense of gratitude for the most mundane freedoms in my life. I'm good. But some big questions about the general world.
I feel like that too. Before we got on this call, I had just seen something on social media, just about a First Nations child and consuming, but also trying to figure out “What can I do? What can I do here?” Because it can be overwhelming, but it's like “What action can I take? What can I do?” It's a huge reminder of everything that we have and have to be grateful for. Your work is one of the things that I'm grateful for and just meeting you and connecting with you. Your beautiful work has been featured in many prestigious arts institutions in Melbourne, but also across the globe. I think you've got some incredible global brands that you've worked with, such as Oxfam and others. How did you go about building your brand and establishing yourself as an artist in what is a highly competitive creative industry?
It's interesting because I like the EBB and flow of using the word artist. I'm back in using it now. My background, I went to art school straight out of high school. I mean I thought of myself as an artist since I was a child because I was very precocious and my parents were working class, but they were ceramicists and potters I suppose, like hobbyists. They raised us creatively. What I've learned now like they were very encouraging in a way that I suppose other parents aren't with creative stuff. I like having to change primary schools from between prep and year one. When I changed schools in year one, I convinced the people at the school there that I had been at art school like in Prep, and that I thought of myself as an artist from a young age.
I think I thought being an artist was kind of like just a lifestyle. It was like who you are, it's like how you see and experience the world. Then when I got to art school as a 17, 18-year-old, I learned that I liked the art industry particularly back then, because this was like 2008, the internet was only really just starting to disrupt the way that we consume and sell and trade art. I remember the dean on our orientation day was quite literally like “Only one out of 100 of you will make it within the arts.” That was the general feeling in 2008. That was like being an artist is rare, like making money like you're a struggling artist, making money from making art is something that only really trust fund babies get to do.
That was the other thing I'd come from like in a north public school environment. I had experienced wealthy people but I was wrong until I got to art school. Like majority of the population had come from private schools and you wouldn't be able to tell from the way they presented themselves. But you'd have conversations with people and you just realize that there was a lot of wealth, there was a lot of generational wealth, there was a lot of nepotism that the entire industry is run on nepotism. It's interesting because I know that there's been a lot of talks about nepotism recently in general within lots of different industries. I think that people are enraged by it but I think that people ignore the fact that what it teaches us is that your networks and communities are more important than what you know.
I think even though I came from humble beginnings, just being able to go to art school provided me access to all of these people who have other access even though it took me a lot longer to get anywhere, it's like I was privileged to have access to meeting those people and the access that their connections provided. It was long. I went to art school, I had some limited success after art school but limited. Like I said, the internet wasn't what it is now. I went to art school for drawing and ended up making mostly textiles and soft sculptures. In my mid-twenties, I kind of liked working in a call centre full time because that's what you do when you graduate with a bachelor of fine arts and was very much like, “I'm not an artist anymore.”
Like I don't know what I'm doing with my life. I went back to school to learn animation and that wasn't wild.
I had grown up doing a little bit of animation and even in high school had studied multimedia. But at the time, like 2007, and 2008 when I was making moves to go to university, the animation industry was different. I thought of myself as an artist. I was like “I'm not going to make cartoons that are so lowbrow.” That was me as a 17-year-old, in denial about how lowbrow I am. I went back in my mid-twenties because I'd started seeing animation being used in what I considered to be artistic arenas. Like it was, I'd go to theatre shows and people were using it for sets and props and like projection art was popping off and I was watching a lot of documentary films and it's happening a lot in documentary film.
It wasn't this thing where I was like, ”If I become an animator I have to make children's television cartoons or advertising.” I was like, “There are artistic applications that I can actually make money.” Because particularly at that point I was very much like, “I don't want to be a struggling artist.” Your body starts falling apart, you start having actual bills and you're like, “I need to work out how I could make money.” I went back to animation school and then it was interesting because I thought that by becoming an animator, I wasn't going to be an artist anymore. I was like, “I'm going to be a designer.” I know that people reading this will probably, they're just like, those are the same things. But in the art and design world, people can get funny about words anyway.
But this is not like a real personality shift that I was like, “I am now a designer.” Things need to have a function, things need to have a purpose, there needs to be a brief, there's no wishy-washiness kind of in the art world obviously, like things can be a lot more fluid and abstract. I was very much like, “I'm going to be a designer, I'm going to just work in a studio, work in an agency, go home at the end of the day, have a weekend. I'm going to be a normal person in society.” Not to say that artists aren't, but like when you're an artist you can sometimes think of yourself as outside of society a bit. I'm just laughing at myself. Anyway, I'm sorry if I take forever to get to the point of this question.
I love the way that your brain works.
But it wasn't until I became an animator that I even started thinking of myself as a brand. Weirdly it was one of those things as well where I think just growing up as a millennial and also just having an art background means that you just pay a lot of attention to media and information. It was like branding kind of came naturally. Because I went to school for animation and interactive media there were branding elements that you would learn within my bachelor's. It was kind of like whenever we'd learn things I'd be like, “Didn't we all already know this? Haven't we watched the Gruin transfer for 10 years? Haven't we like to read magazines?”, but no, apparently I was wrong.
Not everyone knew all those things. I didn't make it as an artist ironically until now it took me a long time basically to kind of get even a rhythm and to feel established. That was once I'd become a commercial animator like working on animated content for clients. It was because I realized that I work differently from other animators and other motion designers. I like to say that while animation school taught me the craft of animation and teaches you design theory, it teaches you how to apply design theory. I think, and this is another thing my dean at art school said on our orientation day she said she wishes everyone could go to art school. I agree with her because I think going to art school teaches you, well maybe it doesn't teach you but it encourages you how to see and perceive and process the world around you.
All you do at art school is make stuff and then you present the stuff to your class and for 40 minutes to an hour you sit there and everyone goes, “What am I looking at? What is it telling me? What is it making me feel? Why is it making me feel those things?” It's when you can satirize it all you want, but there's not, particularly in this day and age where we're flooded with images and content all the time, there's often not really the space to critique what you are looking at and what you're consuming. But I think particularly doing it at such a young age, like being forced. because sometimes people are just bringing in this is no shade to everyone's different crafts. In art school, you have people who have worked weeks on and on some sort of insane sculpture that uses all different kinds of mechanisms and there's also an oil painting involved or something.
Then you have other people that have just arranged like store-bought water bottles in a formation on the floor. You're giving each of those things like equal interrogation and it makes it interesting hearing how other people are interpreting the same kind of visual information. I do think particularly recently where I've been having conversations with people and they can't spot a deep fake, they can't spot when they're like regurgitating misinformation or fake news or like I just, it's really interesting because I'm like weren't we all, I think I take for granted that those seven years of education essentially in image creation has given me a pretty keen eye for, just interrogating images. A lot of people around me don't have that and I wish everyone went to art school. Essentially also along the way in all of them, you pick up, you just know you meet people, you meet people at school, you meet people at exhibitions and those people, like I, some of my first clients when I started animating were people I'd met at nightclubs in my early twenties that now work in government or are human rights lawyers or you'd work at vice work at Oxfam, like work at all these places.
Like people end up in different places. That's what I meant before with the comment about nepotism. It's like those networks, it's who it does become who you know because it's kind of like there's not a lot of time to get things done, particularly in the pace of today's market. If you already know someone and you know you have a trusted connection with that person, they're going to work with you because they trust you. Even if your skills might be a little bit different to what they need, like they'll, they'll rather work with you. It's because working with people is kind of the most important. Being able to have conversations and trust people is kind of more important than how talented you are as a designer or artist.
There's so much in it that I'm just like, “I want to unpack so much of it.” We only had an hour. I just think it's brilliant. My husband studied fine arts painting at VCA and he had come from the outer southeast. People did not go to art school in the school that he went to and everything. He talked about nepotism and he talked about these parents, these people's parents like their own galleries or like their cousin does or he's like “Whoa.” He got the same sort of thing that was like, “You better go become a graphic designer because no one's going to make it as an artist.” He just said so much of it was about schmoozing wealthy people and getting patrons and getting all of this on board and he was just like, “It wasn't necessarily what I thought it was going to be when he initially started.”
But I love when you talk about dissecting images and seeing things and one of the most famous kinds of advertising marketing frameworks for looking at the audience is the Empathy Map which was created by Dave Gray who went to art school. Basically, advertisers use it as like what do I, what did the people feel? What do they think? What are they saying, what are they thinking? That's exactly what you're just talking about. I think it's amazing. Then in terms of the animation, when you said I didn't feel like I'd made it necessarily to, for want of a better word until I became like a commercial animator. How did that, like how did you go from okay, I'm going to go down that path and study and do all the things to okay I'm going to go out on my own and like be a business and then meet up with these people that you've met at nightclubs and like how did you go from okay, I'm going to do this maybe working for somebody else to I'm going to start my own business and I am representing myself as my name and I'm going to go out and get work.
What's interesting is that when I was making art and when I say art I mean I was like having exhibition shows and thought of myself as an artist but I had a day job in a call center.
No shame to call centers by the way. I worked at many call centers and I think they give you so much knowledge and groundwork for how to talk to people.
I'd be a completely different person if I hadn't done my time working in a call centre. Like even in terms of clients, it’s actually how I deal with clients now like a direct link. Like if I had gotten, if I had made it in my early twenties, which is what, I guess I wanted, I would have a completely different career. I'd be a completely different person. I'd probably be a nightmare to work with.
Sorry, I cut you off about call centres.
No, that's okay. This is funny because I got my ABN when I was still at art school. After all, you need an ABN to apply for grant applications. I remember at the time thinking then where I was very anti-capital, you can remember it was like the global recession had just happened. There was like Occupy Wall Street stuff that was going on that was kind of a bit of the collective vibe was very much like you don't want to be like a sellout making money from your work. I remember thinking it was funny that we had to get ABNs because I was like I can't believe to be an artist, I need to be a business at 19, 20, 21.
Still is a little bit like how funny it is to do what should be kind of, something that everyone, everyone should be an artist. It is funny that you need to have an ABN. But so I got my ABN early and because I'm so, I guess probably because I grew up so low because I'm terrified of the tax department and like I'm just terrified of somehow screwing up or doing the wrong thing. From the very beginning, anytime I made any time of money I was like, well I've gotta claim this. I was doing tax returns for like making, no, I was making like $500 one year from selling one piece of art or something. I'm telling my accountant to make sure you include this like. I had a website early where a lot of other people who are in the art world might have just kind of a very simple portfolio website.
But I was, it's interesting because I'm like, that's kind of what probably got me into adulthood and got me back into animating. I would make a gif from my website. I was always changing it like always, essentially that was where I was testing out design stuff before I necessarily thought of myself as a designer. I think like the branding aspect of it, like I said, it came naturally to me so I was kind of treating myself in some ways. I was a brand for a lot longer before I had a mindset shifted into being a brand. Like when I was at animation school and I had decided that, I was like right, I went back to animation school when I was 26 so I was very young but at the time I felt like I was over the hill and ancient and I felt like I was running out of time.
I was like, you are going to be 29 when you finish this degree in an industry where people like the motion design and animation industry are not, it's not an industry where there are a lot of people in their fifties and a lot of people like moving to other industries. There are a lot of young people for whatever reasons. Like it's a relative, I don't want to say it's a young industry because animation's like a hundred years old. But technology changes so swiftly that it can feel like a young industry and can sometimes have a high turnover. I felt like I was running outta time and I was like, I need to start focusing on being like a business in this immediately also because I'd been an adult working full-time at this point when I went back to uni, I didn't cut back my hours.
I was working, my first year I was working full-time hours, like 40 hours a week and I was also studying full-time. I was literally at uni until like all night, or pretty regularly there until 4:00 AM I would come into uni before going into the office. I would leave the office and go back to uni. It was like a real marathon which subsequently destroyed my health. I graduated but at the same time, I was just telling everyone that I was an animator even though I wasn't even really animating very much. I was still learning but it was like actually I'm having this, all these memories flood back. I remember I set it up, because I had my own personal Instagram for years, which like everyone on there had known me from art school and known me from like the Melbourne art scene or the Australian art scene.
I didn't want to all of a sudden start posting like, oh I'm doing these digital drawings. Oh, I'm doing these little practice animations. because it felt childish. Like I felt, I guess I was embarrassed, to be honest. I was embarrassed that that's what I was doing. Even though I liked my first week at animation school I cried because I was like, this is like everything I've ever wanted to do. Because when you're an animator, you're essentially like a director and editor. You, you're making your little movies, you are everyone on set for this thing. It's a particular person who wants to do all of those things. You kind of need to be a bit of a control freak and really obsessive and very imaginative. It's like, it's a particular person. I had very much like a, oh this is what I'm supposed to be doing.
But then I had this kind of, I guess, shame of like, oh I don't know how this will look to my greater community yet. I started a different Instagram that I didn't want anyone from my old life to see. But I did this annoying thing when I set it up and it was like I forgot to unclick something and it pushed this invite to everyone I knew on my phone, made a new Instagram and I was like, no. But in reality that was useful because it did help me I guess be like, why are you embarrassed? Like actually realistically what are you embarrassed about and why do you care what you imagine other people are thinking? Because the thing is, no one was saying, no one was saying to me like, “You're making cartoons now.”
Some people said like, I think in the beginning some people didn't think of it as art. I guess I didn't either. They'd be like, oh it's such a shame Julie, it's not making art anymore. Oh, be like, oh she's, she's like the most creative she's ever been like, what are you talking about? Like they're making art all the time. and I think that just goes to show that there is some elitism, well there was at least some elitism within the art world. This was like 2016. I think things have changed. I was telling everyone, that once I got this Instagram going and people knew someone I had gone to art school with who now lived in New South Wales, she knew someone that was making a documentary and they had no money because it was just a self-funded documentary and they wanted some animation for it.
I was the only animator that anyone knew. I had this Instagram where I was telling people I was now an animator, she put her in contact with me and I remember I was literally in my second year of animation school, she was asking me if I could do all these things that like I was just learning and I was like, “Yep, I could do that. Yep. We can work something out.” Not even lying. Just like she had no money so it's not like she could go to anyone else but just being like, well I'm going to work out how to do it. Because at that point it was like there were no other options. I was very much like I am, like I said, I was working full-time and studying full-time. I was, everything was very much like laser-focused on like, as I said, I don't want to make it sound like I'm ragging on call centres, but I think I was in a call centre, I working in a call centre for 10 years and I essentially didn't have like any other, there didn't seem like there were ways out for me.
Like I was applying for all kinds of different jobs. But as I've said, like even within even with the Bachelor of Fine Arts, I wasn't getting jobs at galleries that I'd volunteered at for like half a decade or various places. Those places exist, like I said, there's a lot of nepotism and there's also a lot of people that want those jobs. It's just hard. I wasn't getting other jobs and it kind of got to this point where I was like, am I going to be here forever? I did get to a point as well where I was like, if I'm here forever, I don't think any less of myself. But it was more that I was like, I feel like I'm wasted here. Like I think I have skills, I think I have value that I can provide in other ways.
Like me, particularly after my first few years in a management role there I was, I was bad at my job. I was like I shouldn't be here anymore. I'm letting you as an employer down and I was determined. I was like I can't turn, I need to buy 30. I guess like a lot of people feel that pressure, I was like I want to buy 30 to be on my like to be making this work. I like to have a kind of career outside of this. I lied my way into my first freelance job and then from that job that documentary ended up premiering in 2019 at the Sydney Film Festival. The Australian documentary industry is relatively small so other documentary filmmakers saw it and they happened to be documentary filmmakers that are like veteran documentary filmmakers.
The next thing I worked on was a myth premier fund-funded documentary. It just became a thing that I was like, “This I guess is my niche so I can now start going outta my way to tell people.” Because I was talking to other animators and nobody else was actually kind of specifically going for daco. But I think because documentaries were already something that I had a keen interest in. I like I'm a jibber-jabber like I like talking a lot, maybe edit that word out. I don't know the entomology of it. I'll have a lot of that problematic guy. I just talk a lot. My farm's family are Italian. We're a culture that talks a lot and that's a big thing in documentaries. You just end up getting into these massive discussions about historical events and niche topics.
I think it's just an industry that's worked out for me. Essentially it wasn't until the pandemic I held onto that call center job as long as possible. I was still freelancing while having it because I felt terrified of being out on my own. because I figured I didn't have the skills to run a business. It was like so much I had to learn. But then when the pandemic hit, I couldn't work in the call centre anymore. I was also in debt because I had done all this extra training outside of university. I paid to do software courses, I bought tech like I'd bought laptops like, and all this money that I liked at the time I was like, I'm not afraid to spend this money because I'm spending it on my future. But at the same time, I wasn't anticipating that I would lose my job during like a global financial unpredictability during the huge CLO crisis.
It was like a really scary time and I essentially just was like, well I have to go throw myself into this fully. Um, there's no other option. That is when I just posted on my social media, it's like, “Hey by the way I know that people might all of a sudden realize they need digital media and by the way, I make animated content. Like I can make illustrated and graphic design content so let me know.” That's when these people in my network, people I'd gone to clubs with in my twenties or people I'd who had shared houses with my friends or people who used to play in punk bands that I used to go to the gigs now worked in various careers. Started making like a few different videos for people and it kind of was a bit of a runaway train at that point of the pandemic as well because everyone had a bit of money I think and everyone needed to get messages out.
They also didn't, they'd never really used freelance animators and motion designers before. There was an insane amount of work. It was a bit like, it was hard to talk about because I was like, “I can't believe how fast I'm like having these major career milestones.” But then obviously the rest of the world. I think for myself like that I'm not, I'm not going to hear it sound like it was all great but it was just I think for me because I had this thing to focus on and everyone else didn't have those things or I intellectualized immense, immense amounts of guilt. I didn't allow myself to feel that guilt until probably two years later. because I kept telling myself to just be happy. You should just be grateful. You should be grateful that you have so much work that you need to work 16-hour days and all of a sudden you need to learn how to write contracts even though you don't know anything about writing contracts and all of a sudden you're making more money than you ever anticipated and like now you have to work out how to pay all this.
Like you learn. It was insane the amount when I think about it now, I'm like the amount of information I learned in 2020 about running myself as a business is insane. But it was also this really pivotal point of going all right, well you can't turn back now. Like this is what you do for a living and like you have to care about all this business stuff now because it's literally how you're going to eat and have a roof over your head.
When you were talking about the animations and the documentaries and it showing in Sydney and then you had these veterans come and it reminded me of one of the first animated, I think it was a documentary, maybe it was just like a film called Persis Persepolis. Do you know that one from 2007? It was about an Iranian woman. I can't remember what exactly I'll find and put into the show notes. But I remember being like, oh you can have heavy content that's animated. You know, like it's not all upbeat and bright and positive all the time. That was like the first time I saw an animated film that wasn't like, I don't know, Disney or something else. It was like this is serious stuff. You deal with a lot of serious elements, not even serious but you very much focus on your documentary sort of life in terms of projects that centre feminism and equality and First Nations and LGBTQIA plus sort of stories. Did they just come about because of the veterans that you were working with? What like tell us about that sort of journey that you've gone into with what you create content with?
Well for the most part it's because of I suppose the communities that I already existed within. Like I was already within the community. Like some of the first projects I did, which were just illustration projects, feminist projects I guess because 2015, 2016, 2017 like with the Me Too movement and stuff, there was like a big push towards, like more feminist education and because also the rise of social media and that kind of content. People just wanted I guess like graphics that people always say like they want youthful stuff always come to me like we really want something youthful. I'm like, I'm in my mid-thirties but still you cool? Yes, but I can make something for the youth for cool young kids. I was lucky in that regard. I guess that's just the communities I was around.
Also within documentaries, a lot of the time people are making documentaries about oppressed communities. Like you're not normally, the people who might be making documentaries about mainstream kinds of issues are probably very big. As commercial networks might make, they're going to make a documentary about the Anzacs or the general kind of Australian history or these kinds of big things. But when people are making independent documentaries or documentaries that are just more independently led, they're usually about press communities. I was already working with making content for various marginalized communities, people just they'll ask someone like, who made you the animation for that? I just started telling everyone I knew that I was an animator. Like I tell my Uber drivers, I tell them I was getting an iron transfusion also, if you tell people you're an animator, they like to light up.
It's wild. When I used to tell people I worked in a call centre, I would have a trauma response essentially. I would like to brace myself for whatever they were going to say to me about what they thought about call centres. I would have to respond in various ways like, “We do social research for the government.” But I would kind of be professional about it. But when I tell people I'm an animator, it brings out their inner child, they're often so disappointed when I'm like, oh you know what? A lot of my job is just sending emails and I'm on the computer all day. Like I'm like, it's not, I'm not sorry to break like the magic, but it is really interesting how people will be like when you make money from this and you, it's interesting because I work in documentary, I do take it seriously because it means that, as I said, I'm very aware of like how pro-people process images and also how like when you elicit emotional responses in people, how those stories mean things to the audiences I guess.
I've had moments with people where you are working on a project about a political movement in the mid-20th century and they might have azo files that are now sort of open to the public and they want them to be animated on screen in a particular way or they might have like a newspaper article or sometimes people have been like, we don't have this newspaper article but we want you to like to make a fake newspaper article. I was having these ethical conversations with them about, well I don't feel ethical making a fake newspaper article because I think people interpret documentaries as truth.
Even if these words were said, I think portraying them as if they were said as a headline and a newspaper feels dishonest. Whereas I think if we can put it in a different way where it's like very obvious that it was said as a verbatim conversation or like it's just, it's really interesting there becomes these ethical questions about like how do you pal history in a way that you are not trying to manipulate your audience, I suppose you're trying to tell history in the most kind of honest way possible. It becomes really obvious that it's like there is no objective history. History is like this, everyone has different narratives and when you're making a documentary, you have to focus on, you are always going to be leaving stories out. Like every time there's a documentary I've worked on at launch, we'll have a Q and A and I have to watch the director kind of squirm when someone says, and like, well what about this? You didn't say anything about this.
They have to talk about how they edit it out. Like had to edit out four hours' worth of footage about that just because it didn't kind of fit the particular narrative of this documentary. I take it seriously and I remember I was like a diddy coming home from my parent's house on a Sunday night and I was just staring out the window and I was about to cry. I can't remember what I was going to cry about, but I was thinking about something intense. and the driver, I lived in the city at that time, I think he didn't expect someone to be going home. He was like, where, where are you going? I was like, excuse me. He was like, where are you going like this late on a Sunday? He was like, are you a surgeon? I was like, what? No, I'm not a surgeon. He was like, oh, are you a human rights lawyer? He was like, oh, what do you do for a living? Why are you going to the city this late? You just seem intense. You're just thinking about something so intensely. I was like, oh, I'm just an animator. Like I'm just an animator. I think I was, it was just because I was moving house. Like I was just struggling with moving house and I was like, I'm just an animator and I've just got a lot on my plate at the moment.
It was really interesting because he started talking to me about AI and I started explaining to him my thoughts on AI. We had a very intense conversation in the end, but it was so funny because I was like, yeah, you would expect me to be probably a lot easier than I. I am sometimes. Not to say that I'm not silly, I think a lot of people think I'm very silly, but there's a lot of heaviness in a lot of the content I make and I take it pretty seriously. Yeah, and I think I've been really lucky as well because a lot of people will talk about how like, oh, sometimes you just have to take on projects from clients that don't align with your values. I've been pretty lucky. There's been times where I've worked on projects for bigger brands and I've kind of been like, oh, it's interesting because like they're not even that bad.
But I think because most of the projects I've worked on have been really grassroots and like people I've known, it just always feels different when I'm working with bigger brands where I'm like, oh, you guys do some things that are a little bit against my values, but not entirely. I think that's the point I'm in now is that I'm at this position where in order to earn more money because the world is just more expensive, I have to kind of work out which values I'm like okay to be flexible with and which ones I want to be firm with. Hmm. But it's interesting, you could, right at the top of the interview bring up just the general feeling at the moment. I was thinking about the referendum, I actually got so activated after the referendum because I did feel an immense amount of guilt.
I was like, you know what? I didn't do enough. I took for granted that I live in a north bubble and that like everyone I spoke to it was voting Yes. I was just like, oh I got lazy, I got complacent. I was like, you literally make media, you make content like for a living. I was just like, and I think it really, it just, it has reactivated something in me where I do feel a lot more staunch in my values I guess. But I also feel a lot more empowered to use my skill set to support causes that I care about.
For anyone who's listening outside of Australia who's not aware, in 2023, Australia had a referendum for First Nations people to have a voice in parliament. Unfortunately, well my opinion, I know some people listen to this who have a different opinion, but it did not pass. I think though when you mentioned, and I think this goes for a lot of people working with bigger brands, sometimes it takes somebody like you with your background and your interests to then change things internally at a bigger brand because you're bringing a perspective and maybe asking questions even in a consulting kind of questionnaire where we're talking about what are we making and what does the animation look like and who's included Without people in there who have different values and challenging what they're doing, things won't change.
I think it's really interesting when people are looking at some companies you may not like. For example, I had somebody contact us who wanted to work with me and I had to say no because they were involved in the gambling industry and just, and I just didn't want to be part of making more people part with their money in gambling and that's just my value. But there'll be other companies that I work with who maybe from the outset I'm like, oh okay, but when I get in I'm like actually this and this and this could change and change for the better. You could be a leader in that space. I think it's really interesting to have those challenges but also think about what you want to do going forward. Because not every brand is going to align with every value. But I think it's really interesting when you're talking about which ones are an absolute no and which ones I might be like, you know what, maybe I could look at my own beliefs or challenge their beliefs when we work together. Does that make sense?
No, definitely. Like that's what I've found from, so I've been now freelance full-time on my like for four years and I've had other rant, like I've done some teaching and mentoring in amongst there and I have done this year I um, experimented with going into a studio environment and also doing a little bit of work in-house for a brand. Both times it was a real wake-up call for lots of things. Yeah. During the pandemic, I was working for myself. I was the majority of the time single and the majority of the time living alone. I had these really big internal changes. Like, like I said, like I know it's like, “I was an artist and I'm a business person.” But like that was like a lot of internal work for me to confront various sorts of wounds I had emotionally about money and about self-worth and so many different things.
Like it was actually like, I'm actually like a fundamentally different person from when I started working for myself full time. It was interesting. I often will think all of these thoughts that I have are universal because I don't know why but so often I'll, we enter these workplaces and I was affronted with like, oh no you once again Juliet like, you think this way? They think that way. It was really interesting as well because I hadn't had a boss for so long. Also even when I, like I said, when I worked in the call centre I was in a managerial position so I had a certain level of authority. I'm entering these workplaces as like the bottom of the barrel, like the lowest level of the hierarchy. It was really interesting kind of coming in and being like, “I run a business outside of this and now I'm like I'm a nobody here.”
Having to work out how to kind of professionally push back on certain things and behaviour and what behaviours you're just going to kind of allow to exist because like, “That's not that bad sort of thing”, and that was interesting. The first place was only three days a week. It was two to three days. Sometimes it was fine. I would leave and I'd be like, oh okay. Like now I can go back to being normal. But the second job was five days and it was really interesting how quickly it brought back those experiences of being an employee. Like just like not taking proper breaks and even just like the level of pressure. I couldn't believe the level of pressure I felt. I'd have people that I was working with who were like, I can't believe that you freelance normally freelancing is stressful.
I was like, do you guys not feel stressed here? Is it not stressful here with your boss? Like wandering around and like just, just I was like, this is an insane level of stress. This is so much more stressful than freelancing. That was interesting because I get cocky. I'm like, my therapist graduated me from therapy, she says I'm good for now. Like all these things and then literally like two weeks in a regular job doing nine to five.
No, you can't handle it.
My heart goes out to everyone who finds working nine to five difficult because particularly when it comes to having challenging conversations about even just workload, it doesn't even need to be like values. It can just literally be insane. I think that workload is about values because I think that if you have a kind of a workplace system that, I know exploitation is like a really big word, but I think that we probably underestimate how much of our, how much of our industries do operate on levels of exploitation.
I think that's why people often don't like to sympathize with people who go on strike because they're like, oh they're just being ungrateful. But I think yeah parts, I mean the film and TV industry, it's, they'd work intense hours and that's like an industry that I guess I'm like a part of in my way. I feel like I'm not a part of any industry because I think I'm a cowboy that's out on my own just doing what I want to do. But like I'm technically in the film and TV industry. But yeah, I think those conversations do come up that people, particularly I think in cultures like Australia that we celebrate this like the idea of like the battler and the kind of just like working hard.I think with office-based jobs or computer-based jobs, we often underestimate how hard the work is because it doesn't look strenuous but it's like a lot of it is just cognitive fatigue. I think we underestimate cognitive fatigue and overstimulation, sitting still all day, the offices with fluorescent lights, the windows that don't open, and all those things that contribute. I think some changes are happening. But yeah, I can't remember the question.
I was just talking about how you got into different sorts of documentary areas. I was going to ask who were any of your mentors during that time when you moved. I think you've talked a little bit about between the lines, even just what you were talking about then about looking after your health and like taking a break and stuff. But what would you like to talk about? Usually, we always say what are you most proud of? I'm going to have to ask that at the end and then how can people get in touch with you? But what else would you like to talk about out of all these questions
Say if you are, I'm going to pretend that the people reading are specifically motion designers, motion designing and animating helped me learn business skills that I have since applied to and like I've gotten arts grants with the new business skills I have. because I finally understood how to make a budget and I finally understood how to write a grant application even though it's like for 10 years I was going to like grant application workshops and was like just still not getting it. It was like, oh actually now I get it because I do p and l statements and like understood things all of a sudden. When I first was freelancing I did a thing called Motion Hatch, which there's, so the motion design industry is relatively small and because we're so online you will know what motion design is like all over the world. You'll be in the same slacks with like when NFTs were taking off, there's like be is probably like the most, the wealthiest person from the NFT kind of things. I can't think of the right word.
Essential industry I guess?
You're like one person removed from the top of the industry kind of. It's pretty wild. The major difference between the motion design and animation industry to the art industry is there's like a lot less gatekeeping in the art industry people will withhold where they're getting specific materials from. There's a lot more scarcity I think. It's a lot more like what I make is specific whereas in the animation industry, you could DM someone who's won an Emmy and say I loved your opening titles on insert whatever. They'll say, oh I'll send you my project file, you can just look at my project file and see how I did things. Or like now more and more people will sell their project files so that they can make a little bit of money.
But it's, it's really like it was eye-opening how much people are just like willing to share information because it's just a bunch of nerdy artists at home with their very expensive computers a lot of the time, time working by themselves making something that majority of people are not even going to pay attention to. When someone else acknowledges it, it's special. When I first was freelancing there was a thing called Motion Hatch in the UK. It started by a female British motion designer who was kind of like, hey there's not enough people talking about the business of being a motion designer. She had a podcast and she also had a mastermind group. I was a mastermind for three months in 2020 and the leader of my mastermind was the head of a stop-motion animation studio in Brooklyn.
They, even though they had been around for a few years, like I said the pandemic was like a bit of an animation boom. They ended up getting all this work for Netflix and that was just wild for me to have immediate access to someone who's running a studio that's now like a 200-person studio and making big-budget projects for a major streamer. Then within the group, all these other animators were majority men. It was interesting because this is where I guess I started taking, yeah, my parents' encouragement. I started appreciating that because all of these boys were so much more established than I was. They had much more successful careers. Like I was very green but I just had so much more belief in myself than any of them to the point where I was like, “Am I insane?”
But it wasn't like I didn't think I was the best but it was just this thing where I was like, I don't think I need to be the best to be worthy of certain things. It was just interesting being in this group where I would end up kind of almost like encouraging these much more successful men. It was very bizarre. But it was fundamental in terms of like yeah just having this community of people to kind of talk about your business struggles essentially with my first like business group. Yeah. That was useful in terms of, yeah, the specifics of being a business that works in motion design. I think now if you're going to be doing any form of digital arts, the thing I would say is that like, I don't want to say don't get comfortable but the tech moves faster than anyone else.
It's kind of like an industry where you need to be a lifelong learner. I think that's probably why I enjoy it because I do enjoy that learning aspect. It can sometimes make you a bit resentful because it's like once you get comfortable in something they've announced some new button on something that does like your major skillset. Like I will admit it's been a journey with generative AI particularly because I'm someone who's been drawing on computers since I was a child. It's like I have a love affair with drawing on computers and now it's like oh you don't even need to draw it. You can just type in this prompt and isn't that amazing? I'm like, no, it's kind of sad because I love the actual action of drawing.
What advice, you've given a whole bunch just then, particularly for animators, but what advice would you give for any kind of aspiring artist or small business owner who is listening to this and maybe they're in a call centre right now and they're listening to it on their lunch break or their 15-minute break. Like what would you say is instrumental to just getting started? Like if they're like, “I want that career, I want to be talking to other people who are creative or I want to become an artist,” but they're just thinking, you know what I've done. Like you were at that point when you said I've been here for 10 years. Like how did you mentally get yourself out of that to start?
I think for me, I don't think I would've gotten out of it if I had been fixated on how dissatisfied I was with it. I used to openly talk about how lucky I was to have that job. There's like a trend on TikTok now where people will talk about their lazy girl jobs. I started that, well I didn't start that trend but like that job for me was one of those jobs where I was like, it was it's stressful but it's a lot less stressful than like the work I've done at agencies and stuff Now it was like, I also got to work with like I have friends that we still have dinner regularly. The girls I used to work with in that call center I've been to their engagement parties. I have helped them with their fifth, their children's fifth birthdays.
It's like we are like, we're still really tight friends because literally for years of our twenties we were having dinner together like most nights of the week and working also we were working in a team. It's one of the most successful group chats I've ever had because when someone pitches an idea like hey should we do this? We are all like, yep, I'm going to check my calendar. Right? Like we all just, we are all, we know how each other works so it's, and we're all in really different industries. Like we're not, none of them are animators. It's really interesting the people I met while I was there, call centres are the most diverse cross-section of the population. You have people that have PhDs and people who dropped outta high school at 15 and you have people who are like princes in their home countries and then people who are like refugees and have come here with nothing.
It's like this amazing cross-section of the population that's like I knew when I was there I was like I will never work in an agency that has this level of just diversity. We had like an 87-year-old employee who worked every day for the call centre in his tie and super briefcase even though he didn't need it and on Fridays, he would wear it like a ski because that was his casual wear. It was this actually, I can't believe I brought this up already. Like that was a really big thing actually when I lost my job I was like, it was a real grief that I was like, I never got like going away from like I've managed 60 people. You know, it's like I didn't get to say goodbye to any of those people. That was quite sad because you're having casual chats with those people.
Some people are not even casual, I've held employees while they cry about dead family members or people who have people say very abusive things to them on the phone and you have to kind of console them or set up a room in our briefing room for people to pray during Ramadan. Like it's like a very like, I mean this isn't just called centres I guess it's just jobs in general when you work in really diverse industries it's just like you have to kind of have this like a really broad spectrum of skills and empathy that you learn. You just learn how to communicate with lots of different people in lots of different ways. I was never, I'm not going to say never, there were years there where I was like, oh my god, what am I doing with my life?
But I got to a point where I was like, I'm so lucky that I get paid a pretty decent amount of money only really, some days I was working long days, but most of the time course call censorships are like five, six hours. You know, it's like I would sleep in, I would have brunch, do yoga and then I would show up to work at like two o'clock, three o'clock in the afternoon. This is a pretty dreamy lifestyle and I would get home kind of like nine or nine o'clock or 10. Like before I went back to uni I was very appreciative that I was like, you know what? I think I was also appreciative because I was starting to get people ironically in the art world who would say things like, I can't believe you're still at the call centre.
Like I did for three months and like it was the worst three months of my life or things like that. I'd be like, I'm grateful for this job. Like they've kept me fed for years. I don't think I would've gotten to where I am if I'd sat there being dissatisfied and ungrateful. I kind of was like, hey, I'm in this position where, and my boss was encouraging, I used to bring my laptop into the office and I would be rendering animated videos on my lunch break. Do you know what I mean? It's like that's not a lot of work. If I was working in hospitality, there's no way I would have had that type of luxury and they used to get me to make Christmas posters for the office and stuff.
It was like they were very encouraging of me to learn those skills as well. Like I'm grateful to them for that. I think by keeping that energy as well anytime you can maintain a gratitude for where you're at, you're going to get to a more satisfying place because when I have interpreted my existence as miserable, it's only ever brought me more misery. It's like neuroscience and also spiritualism that we'll talk about and it's like the things you focus on are the things that you see. I think that's it as well. It's like you're never also going to get to a point in your career that you're like, oh I've made it and this is the end dust off my hands. Like we're all done and dusted show's over, and it's like every week is a new struggle, like I said, like the industry's technology is moving fast, and every industry is being disrupted right now. I think most people are probably wondering what their careers are going to look like in a few years. I think it's more important to focus on enjoying the journey in whatever way you can and also working out your values and how whatever skillset you have can help you support those values. I think that's how I've managed to have an enjoyable career.
Finally, what are you most proud of from all of this? I mean you've done so much. What are you most proud of?
The work I'm doing? Mentoring has become kind of the stuff I'm most proud of because, and I think it has to do with recognizing that it was really special for me to have parents who were so encouraging because I just meet many people that they don't think that being creative has any value, like affiliate find it like deeply sad because I think like we're like literally exist to create stuff. Even if you think of that as wanting to create more life and like having children. But it's like we're here to create like beautiful societies and we're here to create like beautiful gardens and we're here to create like interesting experiences and to tell stories and like I just think everyone, like I said, like I think everyone should be an artist and that doesn't necessarily mean that you're like selling art.
It should be that you are creating in some way. You're creating, you're expressing yourself through creation. When I'm teaching, students just have little belief in their right to make stuff like they think it's frivolous and they think it's useless and they think it's not valuable. It breaks my heart a bit, I guess. I've found that the work I've done mentoring is kind of like the stuff I'm most proud of. I did get a very nice handwritten note from a mentee I have at the VCA High School at the end of the semester. That was like the first time I've had a mentee like to give me a little gift and I was like, oh that, that's actually like very, that touched my heart.
I think you'd be an incredible mentor. I feel like all of those things and conversations and all the people we meet like I had a year 11 English teacher who was incredible and he always got me to read out my work. He was just like, “You've got a gift”, and like you just need that person sometimes. I mean my parents were very supportive, I was very lucky like you that they supported us in whatever we wanted to do. But I feel like a lot of people might see mentoring or coaching or anything else like what am I really going to do in an hour? But you never know that one thing that you say off the cuff doesn't totally transform that person's life and their opinion of themselves, which is incredible. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing so much of yourself and your insights. If people are wanting to get in touch with you either for mentoring or working with you on their brand and their animation or a documentary, how do they best do it? Where can they best connect with you?
I have an Instagram as I've stated.
I love this notorious Instagram that you didn't want anyone to know about and then really helped you.
It's @Jurozone like Eurozone but with a J because I started it. I first started at Instagram in 2012 and there were lots of talks about the Eurozone anyway and bro, @Jurozone. Then I have a website, Julietmirandarowe.com. Those are the best ways. I have an email juliet@julietmirandarowe.com. I'm pretty active in my DMs if you want to DM me. Those are the best ways to contact me.
What's next for you? What are you working on at the moment?
At the moment I've had this month where I've kind of been finishing off different projects, a few different things for some documentaries, some other projects for people. But it's been interesting because I did have that month working in-house. That was a real wake-up call because I was romanticizing getting a job all year. I was, I thought I was going to stop freelancing and I was like, get a job, be a normal person. As I said, I found it stressful and it has sort of reinvigorated me into freelancing but making sure I'm freelancing sustainably. I don't want to say lazier because it's, I'm still doing like 30 hours a week, but it's just a, it's just a day where I'm like, I think I'm concentrating more making sure I'm taking care of my health and my existence as a human before I'm before the brand. Because like I said, it was an intense few years where it was brand, brand brand, brand brand. I think therefore I brand. Now I'm like actually I need to be a human.
You need to be a human. I just saw this thing the other day I was putting in, I don't know, I was doing something on a website and it said we need to check that you're human like those capture things, but just the way that it phrased it and then you put in the information and then it said, congrats you are human. I was like, I'm human and maybe you need something like that. Maybe all small business owners need that to be like my humanity comes first.
I sometimes want to put in a bell that rings like when you're in primary school that's like ring it's recess time. Like, because I have apps on my computer that are meant to tell me, but I just turn like, I just say, okay, cancel. Like I want to keep working. But if I had a bell go off in the room annoyingly, I'd be like okay, time to go and walk around and playtime and have my sandwich and all those
Even something that's like Juliet to the office, please.
I would love that. I should set up, I don't know overlord
Well you are the creative person to set all of that up. Thank you so much for taking the time out of your busy schedule at the moment to chat and yeah, I think it's. You're just a lovely person to be around and your mind in the way that you think is incredible. Thank you so much for joining us.
Thanks, Fiona. You too. Bye.
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How wonderful is Juliet? Honestly, I could just talk to her for hours and hours and hours and as I said at the start, she's somebody who you would be like, yeah, I want to be sitting next to you for some great length of time because you the stories and the way she tells things and just her creativity and willingness to like laugh at life's challenges but also be deep and you know, investigate them as well from different perspectives but not to take things seriously or think that every single thing is set in stone that you can't change it and you can't change parts and directions. She's just got a wonderful vibe and life lens I guess through which it has been wonderful to view the world for the last year working with Juliet. But I wanted to say as usual two things that stood out for me and I would love to hear from you what stood out to you and I'm sure Juliet would as well.
You can always email or DM me at @mydailybusiness_ or hello@mydailybusiness.com and Juliet is over on Instagram @Jurozone. That is J-U-R-O-Z-O-N-E. She's also over in TikTok land at the same handle at @Jurozone, J-U-R-O-Z-O-N-E. Of course, if you want to check out her beautiful website, which as she talked about is full of gifs and animation and all sorts of interesting things that you don't usually see on a lot of pretty boring websites that are out there. She makes hers interesting and fun. You can find that at Juliet Miranda Rowe. That is Julietmirandarowe.com. We'll link to that in the show notes.
I'm going to talk about two things that stood out to me. The first was when Juliet talked about the idea of playing around with different mediums and she talked about when she created her website that it was interesting and that she was creating these sorts of animations and things that she hadn't even started working in that field yet.
But that was just interesting and naturally came to her likewise with kind of building this brand and understanding this sort of storytelling and all of these different elements that would then come in handy later on in terms of her business. Now I feel like sometimes in life we can think oh we're doing this thing over here and it's not really adding to our business or how would that ever set me up? I work with a lot of people who are in transition from maybe they had a different business for 20 years or they were in a different career for 32 years and then they've decided to start a business. What I often hear from these people is, I'm too old. I haven't worked in this industry before. I haven't done X, Y, Z and there's lots of reasons and lots of excuses that come up for people and I love that Juliet was like I can see that this led to this which led to this, which led to that.
Even the at the time challenges or things that she didn't get, she's like later on thankful for that and being like, you know what? Because I wouldn't have been the person I am now if I had just been able to tick every single thing that I wanted at the time that I wanted it. I think often we can either not see the life that we've had before our business as super impactful for the way that we run our business now or not see challenges as kind of blessings later on. I love that she has that attitude towards her life, art and business. The second thing that I wanted to point out is the idea that Juliet shared about sharing yourself and confidently telling people about what you do. I love what she was saying I tell my Uber driver, I tell me like the person that's doing my blood transfusion or I'm not sure if it was transfusion, but you know, telling people and saying, yeah, this is what I do and I'm proud of it and I'm going to talk about it with you because you never know where work or connections or you know, just a great conversation with somebody is going to come from.
I know many people who keep their business, particularly in the first couple of years, kind of secretive or something, or they don't tell family about it or they don't tell their parents at school what they do. I get it, I understand it. I had a long-time kind of love-hate relationship with the word business coach. When people would say, what did you do? I would use all these other words and descriptors as opposed to actually saying what I do. I just think that you just never know where a wonderful connection is going to come from. I love that she talked about animation and people's eyes light up and just that you can have these conversations with all sorts of people. I've had many conversations with different Uber drivers, and taxi drivers over the years and I think it's fascinating to find out what people do in their spare time.
Like for example, a lot of Uber drivers are running other businesses or they're doing this on the side or you know, I've had different conversations where somebody was like, I'm saving for my wedding and I decided that I want this dress. I was like, that is way over the budget, I'm just going to drive my Uber after work every night and save up for it. There are many different reasons that people take on jobs in the gig economy and I love that she was talking about talking to an Uber driver because these are the kinds of conversations. One, they're just great for social human connection that has been proven to be really amazing for our mental health. But two, you just never know where that conversation might lead. I have had many conversations with people randomly who then six months later are like, oh my cousin needs to get some business help.
Is it cool if we send an email to you? You just never know where things are going to come from. I love that. There are many things that I'll take away from this chat and it's always a treat to have the chat with somebody and then be able to listen back to it when the episode gets published and hear different things that I didn't hear the first time and take in all these insights and tips. I just want to say a massive, massive thank you to Juliet for coming in and just sharing openly and really. Humanly, I know that sounds ridiculous, we are all humans, but just in such a warm way, it's, it's just her and it's just such a delight to talk to people like that. If you are somebody who needs some animation, some creative direction, some art, some you know, all sorts of things for your business, for your film, for whatever it is that you're creating, then definitely check out Juliet's work.
You can check out more about her at, as we said before, Julietmirandarowe.com and you can find her on the socials at @Jurozone. I can vouch that she's an absolute delight to have around and I can't wait to see what she creates next. Look out for it because I've been talking to her about a couple of things and I can't wait to see them come to fruition in 2024 and beyond. Thank you so much for listening to this episode. You'll be able to find the show notes, including the links to Juliet's different accounts and different places over at mydailybusiness.com/podcast/370 as it's episode 370. I'll leave it there for now and I'll see you next time. Bye.
