Episode 374: Kaz Ross of Jharmbi and Co
In this episode, Fiona chats with Kaz Ross, a creative director of Jharmbi and Co. Kaz Ross shares her journey, intertwining ancestral connections with the birth of her business. Tune in!
You'll Learn How To:
Introduction
Ancestral Connections and Heritage
Business Origins and Evolution
Balancing Life and Work
Importance of authenticity and genuine connections
Conclusion
Get in touch with My Daily Business
Mentioned Links/Resources:
“I have experienced and seen a lot, I've seen a lot of bad stuff, but I've also witnessed a lot of good things and positive things. I think where I've got to now is that whole thing around. It's about us doing it, not relying on the systems to make the changes, not relying on the government, not relying on the big corporations or whoever to make these changes. It's actually about us and how we make a difference and make a change. It's starting smaller. It's like you can't change the world, you can't change the big problems, but you can change like your immediate, what you radiate from around you. If you can influence and change people and it's that heart space stuff that's important, then you'll be able to change 6 to 10 people, then they go out and change another, however many people it just filters on from that kind of experience.”
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Welcome to episode 374 of the My Daily Business podcast. Today it is a small business interview and it's the first interview of 2024. I couldn't think of a nicer, more beautiful, wonderful, heartfelt person to have on this podcast. I am excited to be able to bring you to today's interview. Before we get stuck into that, I want to acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians on the lands on which I meet these people and record this podcast. That is the Wurrung and Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation. I pay my respects to their elders, past and present, and acknowledge that sovereignty has never been ceded.
The other thing I wanted to mention is that it is the new year. A lot of people are looking at their plans, looking at what they want to change or shift up this year.
For a lot of people, that is their marketing. Marketing is always changing, it's always adapting. But some tenets of marketing are true regardless of what platform you choose to connect with your audience on. I've been in the marketing space for 23 years this year. I have packaged up a lot of the most amazing things that I've learned in that time, according to all sorts of experts and my own lived experience working across many different brands. That is all found for you in marketing for your small business. It's an online self-paced course. You can find all the information at marketingforyoursmallbusiness.com, but twice a year we do offer an upgrade for a course and coaching program and that will be there for you. If you already own the program, you can upgrade for a really small fee in March and September each year. But for now, if you are keen to get your marketing sorted this year, then head on over to marketingforyoursmallbusiness.com and you can get instant access to that course. Let's get into today's small business interview.
As I said at the start, this is just such a beautiful conversation and I was lucky to have today's guest on the podcast. That is the beautiful Kaz Ross, who is the creative director of Jharmbi and Co. and is a proud Moti woman. Her ancestral lands take in Bell Renard on the Murrumbidgee River and Lake Mungo in the far southwest of New South Wales. We are talking about all of this and ancestry is important. It's important to Kaz in general, just being a human in today's world. But it also has a huge importance and impact on the business of Jharmbi and Co. that Kaz runs. I first encountered this business, I think at the start of Covid, or maybe even earlier, I can't even remember exactly. I think I followed them in 2018 and then bought them in 2019.
But I connected with Kaz because honestly, I loved what she was doing she makes these beautiful pieces of art. She is an incredible storyteller both visually and orally and just a wonderful person to be around. I bought a piece and I remember she emailed me just about the piece and something else. Then I replied and then I got the most incredible email back just really telling me who she was, how she'd come into her business, how important it was, her ancestry, her history. It just allowed for this genuine and lovely connection. We have stayed in touch ever since with chats on Instagram and how it goes. I was delighted to get Kaz onto the podcast and to have these just beautiful conversations. We got so in-depth in our conversation before we even hit record and I was like, “I could speak to you Kaz for the next 50 hours.”
She's just one of those people who lights up and is welcoming and just a beacon of fresh air, honestly. In today's chat, we talked about everything from First Nations rights in this country and how people like myself who are non-First Nations can work in solidarity with First Nations people. But also we look at everything from how to run a business and how to run something deeply personal to you as well. I work with many small business owners and I would say that the majority of them, it is a really meaningful practice that they're in. It is not necessarily just to make millions overnight, they're not shopping through Alibaba and finding something that they can get in as quickly and as cheaply as possible and sell it for the biggest profit. They are people that want to create a life that has a purpose and their business is a huge part of that. I would say that is exactly Kaz, she's somebody with meaning, purpose and drive. I hope that you enjoy this—the first interview for 2024 with the wonderful Kaz Ross, creative director of Jharmbi and Co.
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Hi Kaz, welcome to the podcast.
Thank you. Thanks for having me.
I'm so excited about this. It's been a long time coming. How are you feeling about life right now?
Well that was a big question, right? How is life right now? I think there's lots of feelings, there's lots of big emotional feelings with everything that's going on, but I think technically like we've had a challenging, another challenging year personally on the home front. But I think all in all, I feel like this year has also shifted up a gear. There's been some change or there's some things a little bit more in flow. The last few years have been quite challenging and it felt like two or three steps forward and five back. Like just getting smacked back every time you were sort of trying to get up and get going with things. I understand that life has those moments but it's just nice when it's flowing again. There have been challenges this year, but spirits are high. Looking forward to next year, starting in 2024.
I'm looking forward to that too. I often think that I'm like, it feels like sometimes you're in an ocean and then a wave comes and you crash down and then you just get your head back up and another wave and it's like, “I can't get my head back up. Come on ocean, just calm down for me.” For those who don’t know, Jharmbi and Co., what is the business and how and why did you start it?
Jharmbi and Co is an invitation for people from all walks of life to gather as kindred spirits and acknowledge First Nations people and the history of our country. For me, it's a space where collaboration is celebrated and friendships are forged. Jharmbi is an Aboriginal word from where I'm from down south, which means friend or mate. It is the foundation of the business ethos. We have another word which is from my language Mutti Mutti is Yarna Moond and Yarna means to speak to and Moond is the heart. Through Yarna Moond the act of speaking to the heart, the business kind of aims to foster deep connections and healing. That's it in a nutshell.
That is beautiful. I don’t know if I've heard a business being summated eloquently before and it's true. I know we connected when I bought one of your pieces and I was just saying to you before I hit record that you buy things all the time online and then you might get an email from somebody saying thank you for buying it or something and you just wrote the most beautiful email about where you're from and just everything. I was like, “Oh my goodness.” I already liked the piece, but I liked it even more after that. Because you're exactly that. It gave us so much heart and everything else. When you talk about that mateship what did it mean mate? Friend?
Mate, friend. Friendship.
How has that driven the actual products? I know I'm kind of putting you on the spot, but the product selection of what you make, how does that come out in a tangible form?
I guess just tracking back to how I got to creating those plaques was born out of the idea of going inside, having my baby back in 2012, the birth of my daughter. I kind of I guess you go through a rebirthing process when you become a mother. You can't be unchanged by that experience, in any way, shape or other. I think my whole idea around what I wanted to create on a creative level from that moment forward was born for me in that space. Like I'd been in corporate and government and community development work. We're coming back from that and just being at home and sort of setting up home and place and connection to, and at the time we were renting, living in St. Kilda, I started doing some work in, I guess first of all, I started recreating my own home because I never, before a baby I lived in the city and just did the city thing. I worked long hours, had a lot of fun, and went out lots, bands, gigs, you name it. All of Melbourne is renowned for football. loved my football. Anyone who knows me knows that I went to football.
What's your thing? Geelong?
I'm originally from Geelong, but my family are all from Collingwood.
How does that go down?
I know like Dad has still never really recovered from the fact when I announced that I was a Geelong supporter instead of Collingwood because we grew up being taken to all those grounds and those games. I guess that the whole thing of being in Melbourne once I had a baby, my whole life changed in a pivotal way how I used to do things was vastly different. I turned my space into more of a home, I guess. Because like I was always flying around the countryside for work or travelling for pleasure. I guess home life became really important and how we set up home. Then through that, that was my great love for design and interiors and all that sort of stuff as well. Through that, I started doing some styling work, like styling up for events and styling up people's houses for sale.
Started just doing a few friend's places, and started getting a few little features, like people wanting to photograph our apartment in St. Kilda and all sorts of stuff. Things just kind of were evolving in that space. One of the things that I always felt, when I was styling up a home, I felt like there needed to be some sort of acknowledgement of acknowledging the country that you're in. Like just out of respect for and sort of like when you cleanse and clear home and you smoke it out and do all those sorts of things, it's just actually honouring where we are all based. This grew this idea and I was not wanting to make it myself. I looked everywhere, high and low.
The only sort of plaques that you could get at the time were these little tin ones, which may have been made by Anta, which were the aboriginal flag colours. That's purposeful and good. But I wanted something that was, had a little bit more depth and meaning to it. I had no intention of creating those plaques. It was like I was looking to buy one. But there was none. There was none around at the time. More people are making similar, different ones now. I still think the product, and how it's made is very different, vastly different still to what's out on the marketplace. Everything has a purpose and everything has a place. There's no diminishing what other people are creating. I just feel that what I wanted to create was something of really high quality, sustainable product, working with some suppliers, which is Emma and Nick from OnStone. That is made with a stone composite. It sort of feels quite tactile to me. It feels like not a tin product or nothing too shiny. It feels more earthy and tactile. The recycled timber frames are recycled and are beautiful. That's where I guess it kind of got born out of that whole space that no one else was creating at that time.
Can you tell us a bit about the patterns on them? We'll of course be linking it to your Instagram and everything else so people can see visually, but how do you come up with the drawings? The drawings? I don't know if you'd call it the illustration, the pattern.
The diamond design is vastly connected to our Victorian design work on our artifacts and some of our old materials. It's a design that's being used in the reclamation of Victoria being very vastly different to some other parts of the country. I think Aboriginal people in Victoria have long been fighting for recognition around several things because people do not seem to think that Aboriginal people exist in our space, like in Victoria. I think that's changed over the years for sure. But definitely, people acknowledge northern art as being Aboriginal art and the only form of Aboriginal art that's changed in this space. I'm no expert on all of that, but I just know that we've had a deep desire to be recognized in Southeastern Australia, basically for our designs, our stories and who we are as people. We have an urban connection and environment. It's vastly different to some of those who live in the north and more remote communities.
Speaking of communities, you and the whole business Jharmbi and Co are deeply rooted in your connection to these ancestral lands. Before we were getting on, I was like, “I could talk to you for hours about all of this stuff,” you can just tell you're just such a person who leads with purpose and heart. Can you tell us a bit about the significance of Lake Mungo and Balranald?
Balranald
Balranald and your experiences growing up in Victoria and we talked about your ancestry on both sides.
For me, my family is Mutti Mutti. Our ancestral lands do take in Balranald and like Mungo, we are traditional owners with two other groups, Ngiyampaa and Paakantji of Lake Mungo, where on the eastern side of Lake Mungo. Lake Mungo is a real spiritual place. It's a very significant place. It is where Mungo man and Mungo woman were discovered. Those ancestral remains are carbon-dated back over 40,000 years old. They're some of the oldest human remains ever found on the planet. These ancestors lived with the megafauna. The megafauna is like giant kangaroos and wallabies and all that sort of crazy stuff. It's kind of a really interesting time in history. My DNA is linked to that country so I feel it quite strongly.
I feel connected to that. My dad was born, and my Nan was born on the banks of the Murrumbidgee River, which runs through Balranald. They ended up in Queanbeyan–Palerang. They lived along the rivers. My dad lived on the river banks until the age of 18 years old. For myself growing up in Curry, we were always known as curries, and it's been later in life that we've drilled down onto who our language groups are and where we are connected to. We have deep links and ties to Letjiletji, Wemba-Wemba and Wiradjuri Country. They're just as important. But I often just identify as Mutti Mutti because it's where our central line and our story and where we are, where I kind of come into play with dad being from there, Nan being from there.
I think one of the interesting things about our family story is that we were sort of like, it was in a time when my nan was married to a non-indigenous white man who was a lot older than her at the time. They had two kids, but they were sort of not part of a black society and not part of a white society either. They were kind of called the fringe dwellers. Lots of our family groups were pushed together and out of the town. Living across the other side of the river. It's really interesting because even where I live in the northern rivers, I live in a town but I live, according to locals, I'm on the other side of the river. It's so interesting, like even just the terminology that people go, when they say, “Do you live in town?”
I say, “Yeah, I live in town.”They say, “Whereabouts?” They go, ”Across the river.” Like it's this thing, the rivers in many places were at the edge of town. Over the river was like out of town I guess. For us though, it's quite significant in that it meant "out of town" meant fringe dwellers. I've got a funny story. It's not a funny story, I don't know. But whenever we used to go and visit Nan, we'd go across the river in Dan eloquent. This is years later when they've moved from Balranald and moved around and Balranald and moved around and ended up in Queanbeyan–Palerang. They lived on the riverbanks there on the Edwards River. We used to always drive to Nans and we'd go across the river and towards Nans and Dad would always point out this dirt track just right real close to the river and he'd say, “That's Gumtree Lane there. That's where we used to live, like down Gumtree Lane.” It was a river frontage. He used to talk and talk and talk like this, it was like some amazing place, but he never took us there. He never took us there.
Why?
It wasn't until way later in life I did a bus trip with him. He took some Canadian aboriginal people on a tour of his life and stuff. It was years later, it's probably been in the last 15 years since that trip happened. He took me to that place and that place is, I know now why he couldn't take me there.
Was it too painful?
There's a lot of sadness in the land, in our land it was where a lot of kids were taken from. They've got stories of nearly being taken and stuff like that. It's important this work and what I'm trying to do through Jharmbi and Co. is about us all connecting to those stories and understanding them. You can't necessarily see some of these things. You don't understand maybe what did happen, but it's very real and it's still very raw for some of us like it, it's our history, it's our story, but it's also a shared history and a shared story because equally as I was saying to you earlier is around like equally, my indigenous side is just as important as what my what makes up me. I have an Irish background in terms of my grandfather and an English side as well. I think there are other things in there, Spanish as well and whatnot. It's just really interesting.
I probably digressed then, I don’t know. We'll just talk about family, won't we? I think the other thing about what happened to our mobs is that those who were full-blooded Aboriginal people were put on the mission. Some of Dad's extended family that was all, were pushed onto the missions and therefore then our families had to seek permission from the non-indigenous white station master or whatever they were called to get permission to visit their own families. We're not talking that long ago about some of this history. I think what I value is our understanding of nature, connection, family, community, and the rivers.
The rivers are really important and stuff. But I think when you look around at our environment right now, our environment is struggling. We can talk about the climate crisis or we can talk about Mother Nature is just hurting right now. We all have a role to play in that. What and how are we going to, how are we going to repair some of the damage that's being done? That's what links back to my whole mission around Jharmbi and Co. It's something that's still unfolding as to what exactly my plaques are an invitation or a conversation starter. Does the opportunity to share these stories. It's an excuse to get together
Mission accomplished. I know even with the one we have in our old house, it was the first thing you saw when you came in the front door. Many people were like, “Oh.” I think like, I'm 43 and I grew up in Australia since I was four when we came out. I feel like just even looking at my son, who I would've been pregnant at the same time that you were pregnant. My son was born at the very start of 2013 in January. He's 10, he's in grade four. The learning that they're doing around the earth and the planet, but also around First Nations people in this country doesn't even compare to anything that we were taught at school because there just wasn't the teaching. In one generation, what is possible now? Even we went to something the other day and they had an amazing person doing a welcome to this First Nations man. He was talking about certain people and I looked at my son and he was like, “Mom, I just did an assignment on that.” I was like, “Yeah,” like who he's talking about. I just feel like, I don't know. Are you hopeful for the next generation?
Absolutely. Where my daughter goes to school, she learns the Bunong language. Part of the reason for moving to this location was, that it's a beautiful location, but it was all to do with the schooling as well and just feeling like where aboriginal kids make up 20% of the population of the school that she goes to. It's only a small school, but it's integrated and then there is a community of people that have been on the track for a lot, maybe longer than some other areas. It doesn't feel like this added on, we've gotta do it. It feels like a fully integrated sort of space. That's not just for indigenous stuff, it's inclusion full stop for all people. I remember when we went and interviewed the school before, when we were thinking of moving up this way, leaving Melbourne to come and live in the northern rivers, I remember coming up and speaking to the principal and I said, the way she spoke about things, I was like, “Where, where do I sign up?”
She was like, “The community here actually wants all kids living in the country to know and understand Bunong language and culture.” It's really important that these things just continue to evolve. I am very hopeful. I think about how much I've seen in my short space or time on the planet. Saying that I'm about to turn 50 next year and I have experienced and seen a lot, I've seen a lot of bad stuff, but I've also witnessed a lot of good things and positive things. I think where I've got to now is that whole thing around, it's about us doing it, not relying on the systems to make the changes, not relying on the government, not relying on the big corporations or whoever to make these changes. It's actually about us and how we make a difference and make a change. It's starting to get smaller. It's like you can't change the world. You can't change the big problems, but you can change the immediate, what you radiate from around you. If you can influence and change people and it's that heart space stuff that's important, then you'll be able to change 6 to 10 people, then they go out and change another however many people. It just filters on from that kind of experience.
I feel like that's so important where your daughter goes to school, but as in general across the country, I hope that becomes just a standard part of primary education because you just, I know I was talking to this wonderful guy, Chris Ennis from the series, he was talking about how they get the kids in, they teach over a hundred thousand children a year and they get the children to do a kind of like a climate energy audit of their school. Like if we put these here, we could change the electricity bill and if we did this and if we put solar or if we planted. He's like, because those kids now because they've been around for so long, he's like, they're becoming the CEOs of companies and they've got that stuff that they had as children that stick with you. Because it does stick with you. I feel like hopefully, I would hope that by the time both of our kids are turning 50, there's a lot more than just general knowledge of Aboriginal languages.
I feel like even though I went to New Zealand a few years ago, one of my best friends lives there and he knows the Maori language. He's not Maori, but they have every single sign in English and Maori. There are loads of different languages. There's not just one language that we can say, but I just remember thinking, “Wow, it's so integrated.” I'm sure a lot of people read this in New Zealand. There are lots of other problems. I'm not saying, “It's all just perfect over there.” I hope that is just a part and parcel of education here in this country in years to come.
I think the other thing is like, you've got to start somewhere for people to get up, like say raising the flag. It's more than just raising a flag and saying, and acknowledging on NAIDOC week or whenever, reconciliation weeks, those sorts of things. It goes beyond that. But you've got to start somewhere. Even as simple as those tasks are making acknowledgement at the start, which you do on your podcast. I love that. It's just such an indigenous person that listens to your stuff or opens up an email from you on a Sunday night and there's acknowledgement around these things. It speaks volumes to me. It's like, it's not coming from anything but a genuine place. I think once you do come up with that authenticity, the connections are there and people feel safe. It creates safety and I think that's what's important.
Thank you for your kind words as well. That's the thing. Like I just think, we are one love. I wanted to touch on your business journey. Because at the start of this, when I asked how you are, you'd said we've had a couple of tough years, or it's been a bit challenging. You probably said something a bit like that, but all businesses can come with challenges and triumphs and good times, bad times, et cetera. What have the last few years been like and how do you get through those challenges? Especially on top of everything else? Like we've recently had a reference.
I think for me, just so you understand, with my business, it's always been a little bit of a side hustle. It has been my main like my main income or whatever, it's just sort of been this thing that's sat on the side. But 18 months ago when I resigned from my last job, which was, Welcome to Country, I turned my focus to this business. Even challenges, like to say to my husband who at the time like I'd give, I gave up a really good paying job and something I loved. But I think coming off the back end of those few years was quite intense on many levels. I think just giving myself time to breathe from that, I managed a small team, which had built from the ground up this online marketplace for aboriginal tourism experiences across the country.
Coming off that was big and challenging. I mean, it was the tourism industry. The tourism industry was one of the first industries to kind of like, and we were there building something in amongst a pandemic. There were challenging times. I needed to give myself time to recover from that. I also have such an amazing partner that I had to say to him that I keep getting drawn back and called to this Jharmbi and Co. stuff that I'm passionate about. I do believe it's what I'm meant to do. Even the day I resigned I sold plaques that day. Like it, it happens every time I'm in a space between distraction and doing the real thing. It always filters back to, “I'm always shining”. It's been a business that's grown organically. I haven't done a lot of marketing. I haven't done a lot of things. I've wanted it to be this organic, like you've bought it and I've shared my story and then I go, well I hope she shares my story. Pass that on.
I've had friends who've gone and bought it because they're like, “That looks good. Where did you get that from? And what's the thing?” I think you get a lot of that sort of traffic and referral.
Definitely. But I understand business requires more than just the old-fashioned system of, “Hey, have a look at stuff over here.” I think some of the challenges have been around cash flow and financially being able to do what I want to do because you have to spend a little bit of money to make, like, it's not so much, it is about making money, but it's also just building business. It's the reality of building a business. There've been some of the greatest challenges. Like last year we had the floods, we weren't flooded, but our town was flooded. It was just, and I resigned from my job like, and then had to recover emotionally, and mentally. Then I took on responsibilities at the school like becoming president of the PNC group because I got bored at one point.
Need something to do.
I've just handed that back over. Like there's all these ebbs and flows and again, I can easily be distracted. I know that's one of my things. I will sometimes, but I have also learned to be a lot more disciplined over the last few years as well. Especially in the last 18 months and setting up the process that I can get in and do my work and live a life that's a little bit more, not the nine to five. I think you probably do similar things. I've read and heard you speak on this before about being available for your family and being able to do the things that are required. I think I came out when I had my baby, that all women can do anything and I just thought I was superhuman. I can have a baby and I can just keep doing whatever I like.
There are sacrifices and there's kind of compromises on many levels and I don't think a lot of people are talking about that. I think I'm trying to set up this business in a way that accommodates the freedom and flexibility that we desire. I used to sort of run-down like, I suppose not other women, but just definitely that whole you should be able to manage all this stuff.
But that's where I sold a dream a lot of the time.
A hundred percent. Women in particular, I think and I, what I've done full circle on is that again, it's coming back to what's important in life and family and raising children and being available doesn't have to be the mother, but there needs to be a primary carer. That security and safety and all those things that are important for little ones as they're growing and developing and stuff is important. I'm loving just being more home-based and baking cookies. I suppose the families, they're loving it too. Like I bake cakes and do all sorts of stuff now, having that freedom and flexibility.
It's funny because in our generation the women before us sort of didn't necessarily have, well, didn't have the same opportunities like starting a business or even doing what they wanted. It was kind of becoming a teacher, becoming a nurse. That was sort of your endpoint. Then before that I feel like in a very short amount of time it's been, you can do anything, but you can also have a perfect house, perfect wife. Be a perfect mom. Like all things, there's so much pressure on women and you have felt like, I know I've had different friends who've maybe chosen to be a stay-at-home mom. Then they said, “Are you judging me? Because I'm a stay-at-home Mom.” I'm like, “Absolutely not.” Like that's an incredible privilege that you get to be.
It should be celebrated though. It's normal to want to stay at home with your children. Like there's to but each to their own it's not, you have to do it. But what was important for me was those things. In the early days, that's what I did as well. That's where I started developing my business because I knew that I was going to be staying at home or closer to home. But then I got sidetracked again and I got called in to do a job and here and there and I sometimes think there's the ego that kind of draws me back into some of that stuff. You feel you have another identity outside of the mum world or the family life and that's been something that I've sort of had to work through as well. I don't care for any of that stuff anymore. I don't care. It's like, I think if you're doing what you're happy with like it's, it's not based around like, I'm the creative director of this, or I'm the title director of marketing or whatever.
I'll say what a role model. I often think my parents worked hard and I'm sure they did enjoy their jobs, but we also heard a lot of complaining or not even complaining, but just sort of seeing them being stressed and having to, work, they both work shift work and having to work nights and I just think I want my kids to be like, “Mom loves her job.” You don't have to like, have a job that you can't stand just so you get a certain amount of money in. Or you get the title or the business card with this status on it. There is a possibility to enjoy the time that you spend at work and also have time and enjoy it with your family.
If there'd be people reading who maybe it's not family, but maybe they've got health goals or they've run marathons every year or something else that lights them up. Marketing, having spoken, I know you've just said haven't done too much, but it does play a huge role. I come from a very strong marketing background. How have you shared Jharmbi and Co. outside of, for example, your heartfelt email that just made me love the business even more? That's marketing. I know sometimes people think, “That's more like customer service.” It's like it sits under marketing. What other things have you done? Have you done things like market stalls? Did you work with OnStone through their connections? Like what have you done there to sort of, or your old styling connections as well?
I've done socials, but very quiet on socials. Again, I feel like there's some sort of transition or change that I want to speak to. I've been finding it challenging to know how or what it is that I'm trying to, I think it's what I'm sort of talking about. Things are starting to unfold in a new way. I think what we're seeing even with everything around the world is that there are some old systems and old ways of being, how we run business, how we do, how we communicate, all sorts of stuff is changing on many levels. What it is and how we are doing it is still new and a new learning. I guess for me, I do socials. I engage with different people. I do a bit of door knocking or like, “Hey, I want to work with this business, or I want my product here.”
I kind of do a bit, not cold calling, but just reaching out to people that I feel are like-minded on the same wavelength. The thing is, with my thing, I'm not trying to sell it to everyone.
I'm trying to connect it to people that are wanting it. I could convince anybody to buy it, I guess, but it's like, it goes a bit deeper than that. It's a little bit more of a slow process. As I've said to you, it's like it keeps showing up as soon as I don't give it. Like if I get distracted or I give up some other distractions that take my time. Every time I say something like, “I'm going to give that stuff up.” Something comes and it shows up again. I just recently sold to a Novotel hotel in the City of Melbourne in Nam. That was my first, and that's part of the core group. They've got other properties. That's awesome. That's so exciting. It's like, “How did they find me?” I think it was because I've also gone wholesale recently this year. I never wanted to wholesale my product, but I just because of the margins and stuff like that. But it's back to where I used to work. Welcome to Country they are a marketplace and online and they just have such a bigger reach than what I currently have, because I don't do a lot of marketing per se. It was a smart move for me to sell to them and then put it in front of a whole, much bigger audience than I could have ever done.
I thought it was a smart thing to do. I think that I've been able to pick up a few corporate sales through there because I customize. Whereas, the ones that I sell wholesale are just for Sydney and Melbourne. A couple of locations. If you want anything else, you do have to come back directly to me. I think it works nicely. I get to sell a larger portion of the product in one place and it's a done deal. It's a done sale and then the little sales that I make are just sort of the cream on top I guess in a sense. More of that sort of hotel. I'd love to tap into some of the beautiful boutique designer hotels and stuff. I guess my love for travel design and obviously, I worked in the tourism industry. I worked in marketing for a long time too and I worked in small business as well. Randomly like helping other people with their businesses. I think the challenge for me is that I've helped a lot of people do their stuff. Doing it for me,
It's different when you're doing it for yourself.
It's very different. I'm sure you see this with a lot of small business owners, is that doing it for yourself you think you've helped many other people, all these things. But to sit down and do it for yourself is another.
There's an attachment to it that you don't have when it's not your business
It's easy to tell someone what to do.
I wanted to also ask about this because we've talked about your background and how this is so intertwined with what you do and opening up those conversations. I think it's brilliant that NovAtel, these hotel groups or other larger places are coming on board because that is the time when people are more open. Sometimes when they're travelling or even if they're travelling for business, they might have a bit of downtime and they start reflecting on the conference they went to or what they want to do with their life or whatever. I think that's a perfect place for them to be. There's been a lot of challenges with copycats for First Nations businesses. I know particularly, I would say, especially after the resurgence of Black Lives Matter in mid-2020 and the death of George Floyd.
There are huge issues here in Australia, very complex issues around race relations. But I have seen from the business perspective a lot of people who are not First Nations trying to sell things that are First Nations or capitalize as people do with most things that they see that business is picking up in some area. How can people who are not First Nations make sure that they're buying from actually black-owned businesses? I know there's like Source Nation, but for people who are reading who are maybe thinking,” Okay, yes, I want to show my support in some way, or I want to look at my financial interview gifts or something else.” Do you have any advice for being a First Nations business owner yourself?
Well, just to even back that up a little bit, this has been a long-time challenge. I used to work with my dad in an Aboriginal cultural centre in Geelong. Helped set that up many years ago. I used to be an art buyer. I used to one of the things I did was set up a policy around who to buy from how to buy and how to work with indigenous art. Like a whole range of stuff since those days. Because there was nothing much around, but there were some amazing people. Terry Jenkins did heaps of stuff. She's an aboriginal lawyer, renowned for her work around intellectual IP stuff like intellectual property. It's kind of, I've seen it sort of more recently with non-indigenous businesses over the last sort of, since social media and some of like the non-indigenous businesses that have all of a sudden gone, “People are ripping off my stuff.”
I've gone, “This has been going on for us for years.” Like, welcome to what happens in this space. But if you've got something of value, that's often what happens. But I'm not saying that it's right. What I'm saying is it's been around for a long time this sort of behaviour. Lots of people have made a lot of money through either ripping artists or taking designs and reselling them. They used to be called the carpetbaggers, I think in the Northern Territory where they would go in with paints and hand it over and get people to design paint something up and they'd get paid nothing or cart and a beer or some stuff like that. This sort of stuff is not new to us at all.
I think in the digital space, it's more challenging because it's been flooded with many producers and providers and creatives and stuff, and it's like, but at the end of the day, you just need to get to know who is selling your product. Like, yes, there's Supply Nation, there is in Victoria, there's Kinaway Chamber of Commerce. A lot of people work through that. There are lots of different ways that you can, there's the Arts Law code, there's all sorts of stuff that you can check for, but if in doubt, I just always think to get to know who the creator is. Like if you've had a conversation with me or somebody else, you just know. I think one of the other things that I probably would just like to add to that is for Aboriginal people we're constantly, and it's, this is not an offence in any way, but it's like we are constantly being asked to prove ourselves.
How, how do we, how do we prove that your work is legit? How about now and again, you might just actually stuff it up and buy from someone who's not doing the right thing. It's like you've gotta learn from your mistakes as well in terms of purchasing or not purchasing. That comes down to put it all on the other side. I kind of get a little bit tired of hearing things like, we have to jump through the hoops to prove that we're, and that's reframing how we look at it and how we think about it. I would suggest rather than saying I've got to have all the ticks speed to purchase from it because then that can paralyze people that are going like, we want to do the right thing. We do want to do the right thing and buy from the right people. But I think if you've got a real engagement with who you're purchasing from, and you should be trying to buy directly from the artist anyway, therefore you are going to be able to connect in a way that you understand the story and where this is coming from and if you get it wrong, you get it wrong. And I think that the only way of learning is, by making mistakes in this space. Because I don't want people to feel paralyzed that they can't do that. But I think just being kind around the Aboriginal people, having to prove who they are all the time it's fraught with danger sometimes for us.
There's so much that we need to like non-Aboriginal people need to do the work like we need to know.
I know. I think it's just trying to put the work back on your mob sometimes like, just like going like, I know people are genuine, they want to know and they want to learn. I spoke to my daughter's school last year and one of the things, like all the teachers, I just reminded them of the decisions and things that they make just to take into consideration what it is that they still are coming. Don't be paralyzed and think you can't do that because you are not aboriginal. Other people might argue with me, other black fellows, but I believe that you have the power to still inform the process and to help others see what it's, that's important. Because being paralyzed by it doesn't help anybody. Being too afraid to make a decision doesn't help anybody either. Then sort of coming with the attitude that, “Well, who is this?” And then they've gotta prove themselves. It's like, well, maybe you do your research and you'll understand who it is that you're dealing with. Like sure. If you're going to Kmart or something and there's, you're buying something or Bunnings so you can get artwork stuff everywhere now. Like it's, yeah. It's crazy. Right. But they've got licensing agreements, those artists, it's not to say that they're no less important. They have a way to build an economic outcome for their own families. And that's important and that's important to note. That might not be for me to get something through those channels because I want to deal directly with an artist who creates something uniquely for me. I just think there are different ways of doing that.
Thank you for sharing all of that as well. Like, it's important to keep in mind for everyone who's reading and myself, I'm putting my hand up here too massively. On that note as well, business owners, I hear sometimes from people, and it may be about First Nations things, it might be about women's rights, it could be about anything. They'll say, but I haven't got a very big following. Or I'm just a small business owner and I can't elicit change. I'm often like, actually you can, because in Australia, the percentage of companies that are small businesses, which is technically 19 people and under, is gigantic. It makes up a huge portion of the economy. Sometimes I think people feel they're too small to make real things happen. But when we come together and we're seeing it all over the world right now, when people come together and, and don't like you said at the start or when we were talking before and you were like, if we don't wait until like the government changes things, or these big brands change things, we can do it ourselves and we can start ourselves.
What do you think, again, I feel like I should know the answer. I am trying to do my research as well. I know, but what do you think that small business owners can do to show more solidarity with First Nations people in this country who are not First Nations themselves? Like when we send out marketing templates, for example, we always have NAIDOC week there or we have different things there to sort of try and get people that may not have thought about that to be like, “This should be in your marketing plan or at least what do you think about this?” Or educate yourself or go to some events or go to some exhibitions. Are there things that, and again, I feel really, like I'm asking you to do the labour here? I know, but yeah. What do you think about that, does that even make sense as a question?
It does. I think one of the greatest challenges holding space, a safe space for Aboriginal people so that we can have the dialogue and have the conversation for a start. I mean, that's one of the critical things, and that's about building genuine relationships with people. Now, if you don't know how to do that, I guess it's that thing. You don't just see an aboriginal person in the street and go, “Hi, I want to be your friend.”It's like, it doesn't work like that. I mean, if a non-indigenous person came up to me and said, “Hi, I want to be your friend, I'd be going, what, what for?” It's not sort of the way to do it, but, there's, putting yourself into places and spaces where you're going to meet Aboriginal people is a starting point.
I think it's about saying, I don't have all the answers, but I want to do something with you. It's about collaboration. Like I want to do more collaboration work in this space. I'm not sure what that means, it's about me saying, “Look, how do we, how can, can we work together? Like what could we create together?” Rather than it being like, I'm just going to tick off these boxes and I'm going to so I think it's, it's about connection is key. Finding the people, but finding people that resonate for you. Like, there's a lot of blackfellas that are out in the space that are doing things in lots of different ways and it's so it's like finding your right community within that community as well of people. Yeah. I think sometimes it's, it's very simple acts and simple things that could be done, but I think sometimes the simple things are often the hardest things for us to do.
It's even things like, I could tell you so many stories. I could tell you so many stories about how even I've seen so many things happen and we haven't had a voice at the table, we haven't been invited to even but now we sort of like, people want to do stuff in this space, but they still don't know how to do it. It's like, well, I just think it's really simple. It's like if you're going to write, say an indigenous blog on indigenous design, you should potentially get indigenous people to write it. Not non-indigenous people that are making stuff from indigenous. Yes. Like, I'm not saying that those people aren't important, but it's just like, go proper to the source. And I've seen these things happen and I've called a few people out, and only not in a negative way, I've kindly written another email and gone, “I love all your stuff and I'd love to have a cup of tea with you and just like,” have a chat about this stuff because this is stuff that I'm passionate about, design or interiors or whatever.
It's like, I would love to talk to you to have a conversation. Like I've well, I have just offered me, like that's not, it's not business that is just like, I want to see more black fellows operating in different spaces that I love. But often like, it's like when speakers are at some sort of event and I go, “Wow, this is awesome.” They've got all these amazing speakers, but where's a black voice in this? Like, it's just about inclusiveness for all different groups that are going to engage and speak in a different way that's going to connect with people differently. I just think there are so many ways that we could do things.
That calling in, like when you were saying that to, I think that's so important like to open up, I mean it comes back to your exact thing at the start when you said this business is about opening up dialogue and like welcoming conversation and starting a conversation and that's exactly what you're just talking about then as well. Like maybe people are thinking it's harder than it is, it's like just starting a conversation.
Did you ever go to, the Big Hearted business?
Yes.
Did you go to the first one?
No, I didn't go. But I had a friend Emily, who I used to drive to work. We used to talk about it all the time. She used to do a bit of work there, like volunteering and doing stuff there. But I didn't go to the first one.
I went to the first one. Right. I missed out on tickets. It was only 200 people went to the first one. And that was just in 2013. My baby was three months old. But again, this is what I was saying, like this was this pivotal moment where I was like, this sounds like all like how to do what you love and what you're passionate about and make a million dollars from it, I think was her tagline as well for the conference. I was like, “I want to go. I want to be around these people,” I went to that conference, but what happened was that it sold out. I wrote again, I wrote an email, I'm good at writing emails, I think. I wrote an email and said to Claire, that I said, I'm not looking for a free ticket, but I was interested. I'm an aboriginal person who wants to move into this small business space, creative space, and I think I could benefit from being, at this conference.
Anyway, she found a ticket for me. It was great. I mean I still paid for it. It wasn't a free one, but even at that, and it was only 200 people. I remember at the end of the night and just being blown away by, like, I remember it the first-morning tea. I was like, these are my people. These are creative and they're doing just amazing stuff. But then at the end of the conference, I went up to Claire and I said to her, I said, she may or may not remember this, but I said, “This has been fantastic, but it would be great if there was some indigenous voices amongst all of what I've heard over the last two days or whatever.” Like, it was fantastic, but it was just, again, now I'm not going and say that to be critical. It's like my lens and it's like they might not have thought about it. I get it, most people don't often think they're thinking more about it now. But back eight years ago people weren't, didn't have a thing. Are we thinking about everyone when, when we're creating something? We don't have to sell our wares and things to everyone, but it's like, if you are putting on things, it's like, is the voice a rounded voice? Like hearing from all walks of life.
Completely.
Our story's just as important as the next if not very important. I worked at Tourism Victoria, worked for aboriginal tourism for the state of Victoria and marketed and worked with all the businesses and stuff like that. Part of my thing was I was so sneaky back in the days I used to get and put in. I don't know how I got away with some of this stuff, but it was like I kept saying to them that it's like, it's not just about building more businesses, it was about like celebrating the stories that are already as part of the tapestry of like, you are selling in this state saying this is Melbourne, but Melbourne is more than just what you see underneath the city is where business and trade used to happen.
The MCG is like this significant spot where the Kulin Nations used to gather and meet and celebrate and share stock songs and story and, and all this stuff. It still happens in those places, but you are not, you're only telling it from this historical point of view, from 1788 forward. It's like underneath all these layers and it's still similar things are happening in those spaces. It's trying to talk to them about how we make these stories come to life more and acknowledge the history that's there, but it still is there. Like it's, and then, and then writing like the other things before acknowledgements were such a big deal. I used to put it in the front of the little magazines like, welcome to Melbourne. It would be the minister's message and I think the CEO's message or something. But then we'd get this little snapshot like just putting up the top that says, we acknowledge that we're that we've been here for time immortal or whatever. Just like this thing about the acknowledgement of the people here.
Up above. It's like I go, no, no, it's gotta be up the top above like the Minister for Tourism's message and all of that. I probably would, probably could've got in trouble for that, but like I just still, it's sort of, I guess my ancestors were kind of pushing me to get some of those messages in. Now you go to big events in Melbourne and every big event has an acknowledgement and their traditional owners are part of that process. It's such a big deal. They're all the little things that I've done along the way. A disruptor, I guess being a disruptor.
Totally disruptor. On that then, do you feel like with business or, I mean you've talked about you've got, it sounds like you had a, have a great relationship with your family and father in particular. And it sounds like you were kind of changing things at different places that you worked, but have you had mentors or even like a mantra or a book or are you guided purely by your heart and your instinct? What has helped you most in business? Like, or who might've helped you with your business?
Well definitely family, mom, dad, and, and I think too, just re bringing back my nan's story has been important to me. And, I do feel I'm guided by her quite a lot. Like often when I get stressed about stuff, I feel like she's just behind me laughing. I've had lots of sorts in those sorts of encounters. My other great support is my partner Dallas, and he runs his own small business he has had for years and years and he's just, he likes flock work and I'm like a big vision pie in the sky and he's just the doer, he kind of keeps me grounded, is an amazing person and he is a doer, so he will just pick things up and do For me. I've had, I'd say the two other instrumental people at a like personal level is my, one of my good friends D Schmidtke who's a marriage celebrant, but she's done a gamut of so many things working in mental health space, like heaps, heaps and heaps of stuff.
She's like a, I'd call her an unofficial life coach of mine. She'll be pleased with that. She's based in Geelong and I've known Dai for years and years. I used to babysit her kids and all that sort of stuff. We've been friends for a long time. The other one is Emma from OnStone. When I first talked to Emma, I had to give absolute, I told her, I said one day Emma said, when this goes big, I go, you'll get all the kudos. Because she believed in me. She believed in what it was that I was trying to create. The belief that she has had like is the thing that just sort of blew me away, I'm getting emotional about it because it's just like every year I reckon. Because there's just been so many trials and tribulations since the beginning of all of this.
Emma, just like, this is long before doing stuff with black fellas was even cool, right? So it's like she's from the old school of just really truly believing that we have something important to say, that we have something important to share. She encouraged me with, the printing of the star of the plaques. Every year I think she gets a call from me and I go, oh, this year I'm going to do this, this, and this, and I'm going to get it all organized and, and everything's going to, and this is going to be the year, it's going to be the year. I reckon I've been saying that for eight years, but she does, and has just continued to support it. I think she would agree that this year has changed in that it has started to move and it has started to build momentum and it's now up to me to be disciplined around that, that stuff. She's been an amazing mentor for me. Like just off the back. Look, I think just from a, like an international kind of level, I love Peter Crone, he's the mind architect and I don't know if you know him, but he says that we are the ones that get in the way of ourselves.
Agree.
He is brilliant. I could listen to him all day. I want to do one of his masterclass at some point. And I think that's where I'm getting to is I do need to do further development of myself in this space to be able to be more successful in what I'm doing. I'm just really inspired by those people as well that I think there's something else that we just need to come back to basics and connect and feel that heartfelt energy from each other.
I could talk to you all day. The last thing I wanted to ask you before we get into what's next is what are you most proud of from this journey so far?
I think the discipline I've learned for myself, like just showing up. Like I think I've been, I like to go with the flow a lot and I think running your own business, you do need to have some, a lot of self. I think it's like anything if you're a runner or you have to have the discipline to do it every day and whatever that is, you've just gotta show up. So even though I want flexibility and freedom within my working space, I still have to set some goals and parameters around how I'm, and how I do my stuff. I think that's a critical, critical thing. But I'm proud that I have become a little bit more disciplined. I'm really good in a paid work scenario where someone is paying me to show up, I will show up and do that. But I think it's, I think that's a challenge in your own business to easily go, not feeling it today.
But I also, but I also in that as well, it's trying to find the balance of that, of like not busting your boiler to your unwell, it's seasonal. Like everything is seasonal, I'm big on connecting us back to nature and back to nature. If you look at nature, it is cold and wintery and we should be hibernating and kind of going slowly and the types of foods we eat and all that sort of stuff. So it's the same with business. Like if it's all a holistic approach to everything that we do in life, then all of that should flow. I think that's one of the greatest challenges, not beating ourselves up over those things, our connection.
Then finally what's next for Jharmbi and Co and where can people connect with you if they've read this thinking, “I need to connect with her,” which I'm sure they will. Where is the best place?
My Instagram account, which is just @JharmbiandCo, is probably the best that will link you to my website. You can reach out and direct message me there. I do more than just the plugs. I just, do a whole range of other things and can talk to people, do sessions and all sorts of stuff around this, which is related to my story specifically. I also do Y Apple work, which is a modality, that is an indigenous-based mindfulness practice as well. That's something else I offer. That's how you can find me. I think that's the best way to probably connect what's next for me. I think what's next is I probably need to sign up with you Fiona, to take me to the next level because I do need some coaching the other thing I need is I'm going to be connecting out to a whole range of businesses that I admire and in the creative space and I think we could do some stuff together. I'll be sending it out, it's a direct like working on a sales strategy next year targeting like-minded businesses and creative people. I just recently listened to Mannie's podcast. I used to work with Mannie's brother Lindsay at Tourism Victoria. I'm coming for ya Manni.
Awesome. Thank you so much for your time and just appreciated this so much and I'm so glad that you said yes to coming on the podcast. It's been a long time coming, but here we are. Thank you so much.
Thanks so much. Thanks for having me.
You're Welcome. Bye
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As I said earlier, I could talk to Kaz for hours and hours. She is just one of those people I think her ability to connect through any type of communication obviously through visuals and her art as well. But just a conversation, I could just keep chatting and chatting. I just want to say a massive thank you to Kaz for coming on and sharing openly and honestly and just having this genuine connection. This is what this podcast is about. Genuine connection and helping other small business owners learn from their fellow small business owners. There's so much to learn from Kaz. It's hard to just pinpoint two things that stood out, but I will because that's what I do at the end of every interview. But I would love to know what you took away from this, and I'm sure Kaz would as well.
You can always reach out to either of us on Instagram, you can find Kaz @JharmbiandCo. I am just @mydailybusiness_. The two things I want to talk about today from the interview with Kaz, the first is when Kaz talked about just starting somewhere. I know that there are many small business owners here in Australia, but so many people overseas as well that I work with who are not indigenous to whatever country that they are running their business in and potentially living in and going to live in for the rest of their life or maybe even born into. They want to show their solidarity with the First Nations people, the indigenous people of their lands. It’s similar here in Australia and I think that Kaz so eloquently and just honestly said, “Start somewhere and start small.”
I think so often that when I've had conversations with people about how they show up and whether it's for First Nations people, whether it's for other groups that they want to show up for or maybe even they are talking to other people who want to show up for that group that that person is within. And I think so often people are worried about not being perfect or not doing it all correctly by whatever standards that they have heard or assume are out there. And I think she just so beautifully said, start somewhere and start small. These things can signify safety to people and I know that I've heard people being like, oh that's a token. For example, flags on the end of a website don't do much. Or a recognition at the end of an email doesn't do much.
I would say it's better than nothing. It's better than not doing anything and not putting up any kind of stance of where you sit. I've had countless people who have said, I appreciate that you do this or that, or I looked at your website and I felt safe or, I heard that you mentioned this in a podcast and I felt like, okay, I can work with her now. And that could be from all sorts of things from having people on the podcast who have autism and celebrate that wonderful part of themselves through to race through to sexism. So many things. Small business owners often think we don't have the power to change things when we are the largest group in the commercial enterprise. Really, in the commercial enterprise, in the commercial space, we make up the majority of society.
If we can come together and unite and stand in solidarity with people and be like, “How can I do this?” And ask those questions. But also as Kaz said in the interview again so beautifully and just honestly said, we'll do the work, do the work, but also don't be so overcome that you can't start somewhere. I just absolutely adored that part of what she said openly and even me asking the question that's a big learning for me to be like, okay, bring it back on myself and do the work. I loved that part. This second thing that I'm going to bring up from today's interview with Kaz is when she talked about wanting to create a business that has the right systems and processes in place for her to also have time with family, have time with loved ones, have time for other things outside of the business.
I do feel proud of myself for creating a business like this. I work three days a week, and I spend a lot of time with my kids, but I also spend time in nature. Before my parents passed away, I spent a lot of time with them and I just love that Kaz brought that up because I think a lot of people get into business initially to kind of get more time back, and potentially make the same amount of money, if not more money, for doing less, not having to work under somebody else's control or somebody else's saying what you can and can't do and how you can spend your time. But I think sometimes people go in with that idea and then whatever it is, the lure of status or just stuff that is just vanity metrics gets in the way. What they then forget, and I've seen this countless times, is why they started and put the systems and processes in place that yes support you financially, but even more importantly support you to have time off.
You are reading this in January, I tend to take all of that month off plus a couple of weeks in December, about six weeks off at the end of each year as kind of a gift to myself because I've built my business to such a degree that it can run without me and money is still coming in and things have been done and put in place. I love that Kaz said this is a real focus for her, but also that she's been doing this because you have a family and you want to have this time off to be with them and to like she talked about getting more involved with the school and being more involved in her community, but also having time with other loved ones. I think that as you are reading this if you're reading this in real-time, it's the start of January and you're planning out this next year, really look at how much control you have over your time and if you are giving that up or if you are actively seeking that out.
Now I know that people will read to those who potentially have a retail shop or a cafe or a restaurant and think, well I can't take time off because the business needs to keep running. There is always an opportunity for you to either open a little bit earlier or later, maybe close earlier or later. I've had clients in the past who had a retail shop that was in this particular instance running seven days a week. And when we ran through all of their numbers, their staffing issues, everything else that was coming up, they changed that to just have the business open three or four days a week and they made more money, less stress, less staffing issues to be looking after. And it is possible, it is possible. I've worked with thousands of businesses now and it is possible to set up your systems to give you that time back and still make money and hit those other goals that you want in your business.
But I think freedom and time are just something that is sometimes pushed aside in the lure of money and status. I just want to let people know you can make really good money and have that time and freedom. It's something I've always preached. I know suddenly all of these pro hustlers that were rising and grinding 10 years ago are suddenly coming out to be like, “I'm all about time and freedom.” It's kind of annoying to be honest 'cause I feel like, oh, what? That's now making more money for you. But I rant aside, I just have always preached this and I genuinely, desperately believe in it that you cannot get time back. I've seen that countless times losing both my parents, and losing my best friend when I was 21. Other things that have happened to me, you can always make more money, but you cannot get that time back.
For me time and getting that time to myself to spend with my family, just like Kaz is talking about wanting to do with hers and, really she's focusing in on that and has been focusing in on that to create a system and a life and a business that she's proud of, that they all work in conjunction with each other and one isn't taking over the other. Predominantly your business is not taking over your life. I just love that Kaz brought that up because it is something I'm super passionate about and I know that lots of people reading this podcast are also passionate about it. I just applaud her for having that mentality because it is something that you are never going to regret having that time with, whether it's with children, if you have children, or whether it's to work on your health or to pursue something else that's super creative and important, or to travel or to spend time with elderly parents, whatever it is, that time is just crucial.
I would love to know, as I said, what you took away from this, and I just so thoroughly enjoyed this chat with Kaz. I would love you to go and check out these beautiful pieces of artwork her storytelling and everything else that Kaz offers. You can do that over at Jharmbi and Co and we'll link to that in the show notes. We'll link to everything else that we've mentioned today and you'll find that show notes @mydailybusiness.com/podcast/374. Thank you so much for reading, I'll see you next time. Bye.
