Episode 384: Kathryn Elliott, The Alcohol Mindset Coach
How are you doing with alcohol? In this episode, Fiona chats with Kathryn Elliott, The Alcohol Mindset Coach. Kathryn shares her journey on the challenges and benefits of choosing an alcohol-free lifestyle and emphasizes the importance of open communication about this choice. Tune in!
You'll Learn How To:
The impact of other people's reactions
Communicating one's relationship with alcohol
The connection between alcohol and breast cancer
The positive benefits of reducing or giving up alcohol
Seeking natural dopamine highs as an alternative
Exploring hobbies and activities for relaxation
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“What I think is important to focus on here is that other people's reaction to you choosing not to drink says something about their own relationship with alcohol. It's not something we have control over. What we have control over is how we communicate our situation and our relationship with alcohol. What I've found to be useful is that when I'm communicating from a place of, “Yes, this works for me,” I've noticed many positive benefits around my relationship change with alcohol that it doesn't make them feel like you are judging them because I think there's often this feeling of, “You are judging my drinking or I drank in a similar way to the way you drink. You've stopped drinking because you think you've had a problem. Do you think I have a problem?” I try and focus on that. It's my choice and I'm not judging other people and the decisions that they make in their own life.”
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Welcome to episode 384 of the My Daily Business podcast. Today it is an interview with a small business owner and this one might just change your life or the lives of those you love. It is such an important episode and I'm glad that I can bring it out now at the start of this year, if you're reading in real-time or whenever it is that you're reading, I'm really glad that this episode has found you. Before we get stuck into that, I want to remind you that group coaching is now open for enrollment. That will kick off in March 2024. We do have people from all over the world take part in that. Don't feel like you can only do it if you're in Australia. As long as you've got an internet connection and a willingness to be open and share and be part of a community, then it's for you.
You can find all the information and how to apply over at mydailybusiness.com/groupcoaching. If you've got any questions, you can always email us hello@mydailybusiness.com or you can hit us up on Instagram at mydailybusiness_ or TikTok at mydailybusiness. Now, if you do not want a group program, we have one-on-one coaching. You can have an ad hoc three-month or six-month package. We do work with some people for 12 months as well. They're usually people who have already gone through at least three months of coaching. If you are interested in any of that, just go to mydailybusiness.com/shop and find all of that out. The other thing of course is I want to acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians on the land on which I meet these people and have these recordings and do my coaching and that is the Wurrung and Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation. I pay my respects to their elders, past and present, and acknowledge that sovereignty has never been ceded. Let's get into today's small business interview.
Around about six years ago I gave up drinking. Now this was a decision that my husband and I had come to because we were trying our hardest and we had decided that this was the final year of trying to get pregnant and have a second child, which we were incredibly fortunate and went on to have. But my husband and I had a conversation and it was him that suggested that we give up coffee and alcohol. That was in 2017. Then we officially started on the first day of New Year's Eve or New Year's Day on the first day in 2018. Now since then, I have had countless conversations with friends or clients or just random people that I've come in touch with on social media or wherever about how I gave up drinking and also what that has looked like.
Now, I've probably had maybe two or three glasses of wine in the course of that six years. It's not to say, “Oh my God, I've never had a drop of alcohol.” I've had two or three glasses. However, I've just found that it doesn't add anything to my life and I just got into a habit of not having it. Now it's completely fine with me. But I understand that for a lot of people, drinking is a way to connect. It is a way to relax and it's just a habit. Especially here in Australia, it's such a huge part of our culture and in other places I've lived overseas it is as well. I wanted to talk to today's guest who is an expert in this field on how people first even analyze their relationship with alcohol.
As small business owners, how can we see if we are going down a kind of problematic path or if we just want to reduce it? Today's chat is not trying to get people over to an alcohol-free lifestyle. Of course, if that's what you want to do or already are doing, then that's great. It's a judgment-free zone and it's just a conversation about how we determine our relationship with alcohol and whether it is helping or hindering us. Like any other habit, I'm often talking about habits that help and habits that hinder. It can be an addiction to social media. It can be an addiction to buying online courses. It can be just habits around financial tracking. I think that the habit of drinking for some people can be problematic and it can impact and hinder your small business.
Today's guest is Kathryn Elliott and she is an alcohol mindset coach and runs her own small business under the brand name The Alcohol Mindset Coach. You can find that on Instagram at The Alcohol Mindset Coach, or you can head on over to her website, which is thealcoholmindsetcoach.com. As I said, Kathryn Elliott helps people look at their relationship with alcohol and she's a specialist binge drinking and alcohol coach. When Kathryn pitched to us, I had a look at her website and was like, I have seen her before. Turns out I'd seen her on Insights on SBS, which is a fantastic program. But she has done a lot of media and part of her passion and enthusiasm lies in sharing her own story and her own lived experience of alcohol intake and drinking.
She talks about how she has gone on a health journey and how much better she feels for that. She's super passionate about particularly helping women and men. But women in middle age are people who statistically are drinking more. We talk about this in today's chat and we also talk about how you relax if you're a small business owner who's used to drinking. We also talk about things like why most businesses or a lot of businesses out there are not looking at people's relationship with alcohol as something that they could bring internally as like a lunch and learn or as an experience that people can start just getting more aware of, “Do I rely on alcohol too much? Do I feel like I need it to open up?” Now I know a lot of people who read this are small business owners and a lot of those are people who are working by themselves.
I hear from clients sometimes that they'll have a glass of wine in the evening once the kids are in bed and they'll start doing more work. Sometimes that glass of wine can turn into half a bottle or a whole bottle. Things like networking and business events, a lot of the time it's connected through alcohol. I wanted to have this chat with Kathryn about how we even firstly become aware of that, but then how do we change things? As Kathryn talks about in this chat, only 20% of Australians don't drink of drinking age. We are in the minority for people who want to give up drinking but also maybe even just reduce their drinking. How do we as a whole community and as business owners who are a huge part of that community, start talking about these things more openly?
Before I interviewed Kathryn, I had put it out on Instagram stories and asked people for their questions. Many questions came through and I think part of that is the opportunity to ask somebody in this space about it, but also the opportunity to have these anonymously asked. I know that there is also a huge stigma that comes to people when they talk about giving up drinking or reducing their alcohol intake. I think it's just important that we have these conversations. Here it is, my interview with Kathryn Elliott, The Alcohol Mindset Coach.
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Welcome to the podcast Kathryn. How are you feeling about life right now?
I love this question. It's a Monday as we are recording and I am feeling energized, excited, and engaged in my life today. I often start Mondays just with what am I looking forward to about the week and I am feeling all of those three things and I've been looking forward to having this conversation. Thanks for having me.
I'm looking forward to having this conversation, as I was saying just before we hit record. But I love those things that you just said. This is technically my first official day back at work, I'm also feeling quite engaged and excited and it's kind of like you've had the pleasure of the summer holidays and now it's like back into real life and work and I love my business and it sounds like you love your business. Tell us about your business and how you got into this type of work.
Thank you. My business is called The Alcohol Mindset Coach and I am a specialist alcohol and binge drinking coach. I do like to include binge drinking as one of my specialty areas as I've come into this work, through a lived experience of what I would call normalized binge drinking that I took throughout many decades of my life. I've come to this work through lived experience, but also I worked in media and PR for many years in a PR consultancy. I was a general manager there for years and I decided to reassess my relationship with alcohol and made a choice to have an extended break from drinking alcohol. In July 2019, six weeks later I had a diagnosis of breast cancer, which was a huge shock to me. That sent me on a big journey of asking questions about, “What had contributed to this diagnosis that I could start to look at and change in my life?”
Drinking was one of those things. I started to do quite a lot of research into the links between alcohol consumption and breast cancer risk. I was shocked at what I learned. The more I started to learn, the more questions came around, “What do I want to do with my life? How can I do something more purposeful?” I could see this gap in the market and I thought I wanted to become an alcohol coach. How am I going to do that? I did a certification through Naked Mind in America in 2020 during COVID-19 and set up my business in 2020 and I love it. I'm passionate about it, I haven't looked back. That's a quick summary of how I got into this work.
I'm sure that the career prior as well has helped massively in business with the media and the PR and getting yourself out there as well. There are many questions and I have many questions for you from other people as well. I put this out on Instagram and people sent in their questions, but you've been on this journey for about five years. That's huge. I was saying before that I've been just six years and things have changed, but we are recording this at the tail end of summer and that is a huge time for drinking, entertaining, socializing, people, not everyone, but a lot of people I know I did equate holidays with drinking, letting your hair down, relaxing and drinking so often go together. I know people who are reading from Europe who are in winter and that can also be a big time for drinking. Because you cut in cozy and you're inside and let's have wine. Do you think from your work that people are drinking as much as they used to? Do you think that it is actually changing and maybe younger generations to us will not be drinking as much? I'm kind of putting you on the spot.
This is an interesting question and I'll answer it in a couple of different ways. Overall Australians are drinking less. Per capita, per person. Yes, we are. It has been declining probably since 2007. But what we are seeing is that middle-aged women are drinking more. Around 20% of middle-aged women, between the ages of 45 and 60 are regularly drinking at binge levels. And by binge levels, I mean four or more standard drinks in one sitting.
Is that the definition of binge? I'm just watching Netflix and having more than four wines was a very common thing that I used to have.
I mean, absolutely. I think this shows that there are probably a lot of people who are binge drinking without even realizing what the amount is and for men, it's five drinks or more in a sitting. I was shocked when I learned that. Most people are, and they don't even really understand what binge drinking means. I guess from my perspective, I also see binge drinking as it's also about your approach in psychology around alcohol and drinking. I guess for me that was very much around drinking quickly, not having an off switch, being able to tolerate sort of large amounts of alcohol. Binge drinking is often associated with blackouts as well. Not remembering hazy memories accidents, falling over, those sorts of things.
When you work with people, what are some of the biggest challenges that they need to overcome to drinking? Is it accepting? I thought I was just relaxing with a few wines in front of Netflix, but now you're telling me that's binge drinking. Do you feel like by the time somebody's got to you, they've already accepted that they want to change? What are some of the things that you kind of work through?
Generally, when people come to me, they have accepted or they have some questions about their drinking, it worries them. It generally has been for some time or they've seen changes in their drinking. I'll often say to them, “It's not really about the number of drinks that you are having, it's about how drinking is impacting your life.” Because what might be a problem for one person is not for another. Often I'll ask questions around, “What are the problems that you're seeing that are associated with drinking in your life?” And it might be around their health, it might be around their relationships, it might be their mental health or their anxiety, it might be around their sleep. There are many areas that alcohol can impact our lives. Sometimes a lot of people aren't even aware that alcohol can impact the quality of our sleep every night. One drink can affect the quality and type of sleep that we have. Our REM cycles which are important to our overall health are significantly reduced when we drink alcohol.
That used to be a thing for me. I'd wake up quite often and you'd have a dry mouth even if I hadn't had that much. I gave up drinking on New Year's Eve 2017, technically the next day 2018. The reason that we gave up was that in 20 we'd been trying to get pregnant and had gone through a miscarriage in 2016. In 2018 was our final year of trying to get pregnant and we decided we were doing IVF and my husband suggested and said, “Let's give it the best possible shot. Let's give up coffee, let's give up alcohol.” I was furious at that suggestion, to be honest. I was like, “What?” I was thinking, “I don't smoke, I don't do drugs, I don't do anything crazy, don't take my wine from me.” Like seriously. But he convinced me and we gave up and it was amazing. Then I was pregnant so I didn't drink and then I was breastfeeding and then my dad passed away and just things after.
I'd already lost my mom in 2017. It was a whole series of things that helped in a way because I was kind of forced because it was like, “Do you want this baby?” I wanted the baby and I wanted IVF to go better, more than I wanted to drink. However, I guess a lot of people don't have this burning catalyst. Especially if you're reaching middle age and maybe that time of wanting to have children or having young children is behind you. Do people usually come with a big reason or they don't have a big reason? What is the reason for giving up that pleasure away? It is a pleasure. It's relaxing, it's enjoyable to a point. If they don't have a big reason, what is the catalyst?
Great question. Sometimes the catalyst is that there is this desire that they can be a better version of themselves. If they look at their relationship with alcohol and that if there's someone who has a passion about health and wants to make the most out of their life and the opportunities that they have in life, they start to look at alcohol and think maybe there are small changes that I can make here that will have a lasting impact on my professional development, on my relationships, on my ability to be more of a present parent. You don't have to have a rock bottom moment to question your relationship with alcohol. I'll often say if you are passionate about your health and you are exercising regularly and you are doing work on your personal development and your professional development, there is no reason why you shouldn't look at the relationship that alcohol has in your life.
One of the things that I know through working with a lot of men and women who are professionally generally in their mid-thirties, forties and fifties, is that when they change their relationship with alcohol, they drink less or they cut it out completely. They notice a massive surge in clarity, productivity, creativity, improved energy, improved sleep, motivation, all of these things. You don't have to be motivated by a rock bottom or a big negative. You can be motivated by wanting to get that extra edge that you didn't even know was possible or that was there.
I remember after my mom died, we had certain things happen in my family. I remember at one particular time was incredibly hard and we were getting my dad into a nursing home and we were getting the family house ready to sell. It was full of memories and it was a bit of a traumatic day. My husband, when I got home, he had bought my favourite wine. This was before we gave up. It was 2017. He said to me, “I bought your favourite wine.” That time I had been cutting down quite a bit and I remember, I said to him, “Nothing good is going to come from having that bottle of wine.” I said, “Can you go put it back in the fridge or can you better yet just take it to your mom's or take it somewhere else?” That was a huge turning point because I was like, “It doesn't add anything to my life.” That's how I feel now. Like when people say, “Why do you drink?” I'm like, “It doesn't add anything.” Like I could drink, I wasn't an alcoholic but it doesn't add anything great. It detracts. I see the games, like you've just mentioned, better sleep, better clarity, all of that is just much better. I don't usually do this, but we put it out on Instagram because it can be quite a shameful thing to talk about. Even when people say to me, “Why don't you drink?” I feel like I have to go through this whole justification like I just did, “We were getting IVF.” Here are all the reasons. I put it out on Instagram so that people could ask anonymous questions that I could then ask you. The first question we were asked was, “Is it necessary to give up drinking?” Somebody said, “I don't actually drink that much and I've also had periods where I don't drink at all.” Are there health benefits for people who aren't even drinking that much or even having long periods of the year that they don't drink at all in actually giving up entirely? Is it worth it?
Great question. Well try it out and say, absolutely there will be positive benefits from anyone who chooses not to drink alcohol, whether you have a problem or not. Alcohol is a toxin. When we are putting a toxin into our body, there are many negative effects of that. I think sometimes it's just a good opportunity to be curious what would it feel like to have some time away from drinking a month or two? Just see how I feel. Does it impact my sleep? Do I feel more energized? Am I feeling healthier? It's going to reduce your risk of at least seven types of cancer if you're taking alcohol out completely as well.
I think it's a very individual choice and it depends on what your why is and what you are motivated by when you are looking at questioning the role that alcohol plays in our life. But I have often said to some of my friends. A lot of them wouldn't claim to have an issue with alcohol. But I've said experiment, see what it feels like to go out socially and choose not to drink. I think in many ways it makes people realize, I'm more dependent on alcohol than I thought I was. I think that is what can become quite interesting when you are curious about it. When am I feeling a little bit uncomfortable? If I'm going to a party or a work function and I'm not drinking alcohol, how do I answer those questions? What do I feel I need to tell people about my drinking? I think that's an interesting one. I know from the work that I do with clients that one of the biggest barriers to them seeking help or changing their relationship with alcohol is shame and what others will think of them. How they manage the process of communicating to other people and going out without drinking.
It's huge because that was going to be one of my later questions, but I'm just going to pull it up earlier, I could have asked this myself because I can relate to some, to it as somebody who gave up alcohol six years ago, how do you drink less or completely give up if you feel like you're letting people around you down? The question said, “Every year I give up drinking for winter, and every year I have somebody whether my family or my partner or a friend get annoyed and say, you are no fun. I always feel guilty even though I'm looking after my health. It's as if they think I'm choosing to be antisocial. Would love your ideas on this, please.” I just want to add to that, I also wanted to ask you something like that because I see it, and I'm not exaggerating, but I see when a newer friend might say, “Do you want a drink? Do you want a wine?” And I say, “Oh no, I don't drink. I'll have a cup of tea or a Diet Coke.” I see this look that comes over their face like, “There goes my fun.” And you say, “But you have a drink if you want to have a drink.” And they're like, “No, it's okay.” And you feel like you've kind of let the air out of someone's balloon. How would you answer that question? I think you raised it earlier and I think it's something that comes up a lot.
This is a big one. What I think's important to focus on here is that other people's reaction to you choosing not to drink says something about their own relationship with alcohol. It's not something we have control over. What we have control over is how we communicate our situation and our relationship with alcohol. What I've found to be useful is that when I'm communicating from a place of, yes, this works for me, I've noticed many positive benefits around my relationship change with alcohol. That it doesn't make them feel like you are judging them. I think there's often this feeling of, “You are judging my drinking, or I drank in a similar way to the way you drink. You've stopped drinking because you think you've had a problem. Do you think I have a problem?” I try and focus on that. It's my choice and I'm not judging other people and the decisions that they make in their own life.
I noticed before we hit record, you said, I'm alcohol-free or I've been alcohol-free for this amount of time rather than sober or even I don't drink alcohol. Can you tell me why you chose those words and how important language is for people?
For me, alcohol-free just epitomizes how I find, I see it as a lifestyle that I lead. It wasn't about me recovering from something, it's about me choosing a lifestyle. In that label, I feel very empowered with it. I think it's very individual, the language that you use around anything. I'm also someone who's had breast cancer and I used certain language when I was going through treatment that I wanted to empower myself as well. For some people, using the word I am sober or I am in recovery is empowering for them and super important. I think you need to find a language that feels good for you. For many people in this situation with alcohol, there's a huge spectrum of problematic drinking and what that can feel and look like.
Unfortunately most of us, we've only had a very narrow perspective of what a problematic relationship with alcohol looks like. Which is someone who is an alcoholic drinking at 10:00 AM in the morning, homeless or having to go into rehab. I'm passionate about talking about my particular issue with drinking because I feel like a lot of people could relate to it in Australia and they can start to see themselves and think, “Okay, I feel seen and heard in my relationship with alcohol, which I feel might be problematic.”
That's interesting. I'm going to steal your alcohol-free because I feel like it's just like sugar-free, meat-free it's just another choice that you have made for your health and I think it's great. One of the other questions is how do you give it up if you just love that feeling? I was talking to them about this interview and I said, “I would've loved to go through my life on two wines.” I loved how two wines made me feel because you just felt relaxed. Everything just felt chill and easy. What would you say to somebody who does, in this case, would like to give up drinking, but has tried multiple times and it isn't, I wouldn't say isn't hasn't got a problem. But they said, I just love how it feels when I've had a couple of glasses with friends and it just feels nice.
Alcohol is a drug, it gives us a dopamine hit. We can all associate with that feeling of having that first one or two drinks. There is an artificial high that you receive. I think accepting that and understanding that's often the reason why we continue to drink, we are chasing that feeling. But unfortunately, a lot of us can't stop after two drinks. If you are only having two drinks every now and again, and that feels good for you and you don't have a reason to stop drinking, but if you want to stop, then it's important to learn maybe about the other negative effects that alcohol might be having on your brain and your body, your sleep, all of those sorts of things because you need to be motivated by something.
A lot of clients will say to me that feeling of that first drink, you just can't beat it. It's about looking at alternative ways of getting natural dopamine highs as well. Bringing in new habits into your life. One of the things that I've noticed is when I was drinking alcohol, I wasn't able to experience natural highs nearly as well as I can now because I'd been numbing myself and I hadn't been allowing myself to feel. Now I do get absolute natural highs from very ordinary things in life. Like walking my dog, seeing my dog, chasing birds on a beautiful sunny day. I've been doing some cold showers and ice baths. They give me a huge high now. Music, all sorts of different things, but you need to start to seek them out. You need to start to give yourself sort of permission to start to gauge what these feelings are again.
It reminds me of years ago when I saw a psychologist, I had an issue at work and I ended up seeing this psychologist who worked with people with addiction and that wasn't why I was seeing her. I was seeing her about work, but I remember her saying, “How do you relax?” And I was like, “Why?” And I kind of laughed it off and she was like, “No, but what else do you do?” And I was like, “Not really anything?” I was like, “I've got young children.” I just, “Well a child at that time,” I was like, “That's my relaxing.” I think when you were saying what else is making you feel really good, I think that's a question for people to ask themselves. What else do I do that is just for me and isn't about the kids or my work or my friends or my family, it's just me that makes me feel good. That isn't related to alcohol.
Yes, exactly. I think unfortunately in our culture, through advertising and marketing and socializing with friends and even from our families, if we've grown up in families where there's been drinking at barbecues, that's how you celebrate, that's how you socialize. That is all messaging that we are continually given that to have a good time and relax you drink alcohol and put into a new program ourselves takes time. I guess that's one of the benefits of working with a coach or doing any program that you do. It's about reprogramming and looking at the thoughts and beliefs that you have thought to be true. It's all part of your sort of subconscious. It's about bringing those into the light and starting to question them and then starting to take action and change in your life that starts to turn the needle a little bit.
Another common question was when people submitted their questions on Instagram, how do you know if you're drinking too much? Many people said that because of their social circles, because of the people around them or even their staff or colleagues, they drink more than them. How do they know if they're having a problem with alcohol? Because according to everyone around them, they're fine. They don't drink as much as everyone else, but they feel they might drink too much. I know we sort of covered that a little bit, but anything else you'd say to that?
Don't compare yourself to other people. That one gets us all into a lot of issues around our drinking. If we are drinking a lot, we are also in social situations generally where other people are also drinking a lot. It sort of enables a culture of excessive drinking and normalizes it. The most important thing to ask yourself is my drinking affects my life negatively? If it is, then there is potentially a problem there. Some of the questions that I'll take my clients through are things like have you tried to cut back on your drinking but have not been successful? Has alcohol made you behave in a way that you regret? Have you hurt people that you care about? Do you regularly try to limit your number of drinks on a night out and end up having a binge or not being able to? Are you always chasing another drink and you can't seem to find an off switch? Do you wake up in the middle of the night after drinking with anxiety and shame and wondering why you're here again? Has drinking isolated you from friends and family? Sometimes that can be you can start to feel that there's a bit of a shift and sometimes it's like, have you blacked out or fallen over whilst you've been drinking or had hazy memories? They're just some of the questions, but it's also about is alcohol playing a role in your life now that has become significant and you don't like it?
I wish I had found somebody like you when at the time I was just sort of going, “I'll give it up for a year while we try and get pregnant.” I was like at that time when we first gave it up, I was busting for that year to be over and for me to have my wine again. I'm just used to it that it doesn't bother me if no one else. If everyone else is drinking it doesn't bother me if people have questions about it. But I know at that starting point, I think it is very hard for people to do it without a reason like, “I'm pregnant.” Especially if they're surrounded by people. You've just sort of gone through this as well, but if someone was reading this and thinking, “I just want to get started,” do they go to your website and or are there books, are there things that you'd say, “This is where you should start?”
I think being open and curious and a good place to start is to do some reading. There are some great books out there. Even in the past five years, we call it Quit Lit, but there are some fantastic books. There's one called This Naked Mind by Annie Grace. There's another one called Alcohol Explained by William Porter. They give you great science-backed information about alcohol and its impact on the body. Annie Grace has also got another one called The Alcohol Experiment, which is sort of a supportive 30-day guide to help you take a break from alcohol, but you can also do it without taking a break. You could do it to drink more mindfully or just to learn about alcohol. Then there are some fantastic podcasts as well that are useful in hearing people's stories around alcohol and the way that it's impacted people's lives.
As well as topics, tools and techniques, that can help support you navigate your own change. But I think they're a good place to start. What I will say is that for any long-term change, it's often important to have either engaged in a program, group program or one-on-one program with a coach or a psychologist to help someone who's had a lived experience of a similar issue to you. That can be incredibly powerful. That's what I often ask my clients, ‘What the most powerful thing was in the program?” They will always say, “You because you bring your lived experience, you bring hope, you show us where you can be.” It's not necessarily coming to a relationship to give up alcohol. They come to change their relationship with alcohol. That can change during our time together as well. Which is why I don't ever want people to be scared and think that the only successful KPI is quitting drinking. No, it's not. The successful KPI here is being courageous, admitting that you want to change, admitting that you feel you've got a problem and seeking help and accountability. That's the most important thing.
I'm just going to add that when we gave up, one of the things that helped was having another drink. Like as we got really into kombucha and now there are so many non-alcoholic options out there. Then in 2018, we went to visit our friend in New Zealand and he gave up alcohol 10 years ago. His dad was an alcoholic and gave up, and he had these non-alcoholic beers, and that was 2018. They were such a new thing. They were like, “Non-alcoholic beers.” They tasted great and I feel like a few times at the start when we'd go to parties having those things, like I've got a drink in my hand. I think that helped. I know even now as we will have, I call it my fake champagne, but it's non-alcoholic champagne, and I'll have it for Christmas and I'll have things. I feel like I'm part of it and not just having diet coke all the time.
Definitely. It's great to have sort of your, your ritual or party drink. I do that for special social occasions or celebrations as well. Even if it's just investing in a beautiful glass that you like to drink out of as well. There's also a great website, The Mindful Mocktail, a beautiful Australian girl who's created all these incredible mocktails and she videos them and they look fabulous and
it's fun. There's a ritual and you look at the drink and you think that looks beautiful. It makes you feel part of it. I think that's a great point. I will say that initially when you start to experiment with doing things differently, drinking less, or going out socially without drinking, you have to make a plan ahead because our brain likes the familiar, if we don't plan, we get drawn back into our old behaviour very quickly and very easily. There are often urges or cravings that you need to work through.
They may not necessarily be physical, they might be more emotional and psychological, and they can be triggered by being in certain environments or certain weather with certain people. I think some of the most successful things are that you communicate beforehand with people whom you're socializing with and you take ownership of what you are doing. You don't have to tell them the ins and outs of your story, but it's really important that you feel supported. You don't feel you're going into an environment where you are already on the back foot. Someone hands you a drink and all of a sudden you've got an alcoholic drink in your hand and you're thinking, “How did I get here?”A plan is super important.
Then playing the tape forward to the next day. Like, “What have I got planned for the morning of the next day when I'll be waking up feeling fresh and hangover-free?” Having that there is good. In the early days, I would get home sometimes if I'd been out or whatever with a cup of tea and I'd just sit there and just feel present in, “Wow, I'm sober, I'm about to go to bed, I don't feel affected by alcohol. I'm going to wake up tomorrow morning and feel good.” Just acknowledge myself. We have to acknowledge ourselves. It's really important because no one else often does that for us. It's just important to remember that 80% of the population in Australia are drinking. We're in the minority, I think it's over 20% of the population don't drink alcohol. We are pushing against the tide. I used to have a feeling that I was a party girl, I was a bit of a rebel. I liked to have that there was something about drinking that made me feel like I could let go of steam and lose control. I had to reframe my alcohol-free lifestyle in a way that I'm still being a rebel. I'm ahead of the curve. I am pushing boundaries. I'm questioning a behaviour in society that has been normalized for so long. That for me has felt good. I'm like actually, ”This is who I am.” You can find a new way of tapping into an alcohol-free identity that can feel powerful.
I think that's awesome. Go ask the rebels. I also think that even reading this I'm thinking I would love to see more business events where they have non-alcoholic options. I feel that is something that's lacking. When you go to business networking, a lot of people who read this podcast work by themselves. The networking events, they want to go and they want to reach out. But if you go and all they have is either mineral water or coke or all these lovely alcohols or cocktails or champagne, it's not sort of saying, “Hey, we have options for everyone.” I think that's maybe something for people to take away. But I also wanted to talk about the small business owner because there is a lot of stress that comes with running a business.
You run your own business now. A lot of people, particularly in Australia, where we are both from deal and cope with their stress by having a drink. That could be one glass of wine, we've talked about a small amount or it could be a slab of beer. You've talked about how people can change these habits when you're a business owner and I'm sure you have a lot of experience being in PR having come from a PR background where events are a big part of it. I have clients who might work with music festivals, run music festivals, run events, a lot of 'em do trade shows. There's always, and I speak at trade shows and you always say, “Networking event come and have champagne and wine.” I mean, I haven't gone to heaps of them lately, but at any of the ones I have gone to as a speaker, there's never been a non-alcoholic option.
Besides, we can give you a tap and a glass of water from behind the bar. If you're a business owner and you have had decades of drinking and it's been part of your thing and part of your business is showing up to these things and there's not an option when you don't know people, you can't necessarily say to the trade show owners, “I don't drink. Is there something for me?” But is it an option then, I guess to contact them when you said before planning ahead that can work when you've got friends and family that you can say, “Hey, I am on this journey.” But do you think for business owners they should just say, “Hey, wondering what your non-alcoholic options are?”
Yep. I've done this myself on many occasions. I think there's still a huge growth area here. In terms of being considered because this is an area I'm passionate about and starting to work in this idea of what is an inclusive workplace? If we're not being catered for as people who don't drink alcohol, we need to be, because younger Australians are drinking a lot less. There is a real rise in this sober curious movement, which isn't necessarily people not drinking or choosing to give up alcohol. It's people because of motivations for their health and wellbeing that they're drinking less. I think I'm flabbergasted that not many organizations don't have policies around the use of alcohol in their workplace.
This is something I'm working on with a coach in the UK. She's developed this workplace sort of alcohol safety certification for businesses. I think it's powerful. If you ask people about non-alcoholic options, you're starting to show them that there's a demand. That's important because I went to a music event at the Sydney Myer Music Bowl in the last six months. They now have non-alcoholic drinks there, which is a change from previous years. I feel like we are starting to see changes, but we've still got a long way to go. I also emailed the MCG to say that I had not been able to get non-alcoholic beer and I would like to. It's very worthwhile saying something. The other thing that could often be quite useful is if you're going to a bar or you are going somewhere to actually call them up beforehand and just say, “What non-alcoholic options do you have? I'm not drinking.” Sometimes they will let you bring your own or they will say, “We didn't know that we can supply this, or this is what we have.” Then you can work out, “Now I know what I'm going to order before I go.”
Having a friend, like I've got a good friend, she just has never drunk. Weirdly, two of my other close friends both gave up alcohol in the last decade, one a couple of years ago. I think that has also been super helpful to have where I know there's at least one other person that's not drinking. Not so much now because I'm just used to being the person who doesn't drink. But when I was starting, I thought that was useful.
Definitely. Even if it's not someone else who's not drinking, but just someone for accountability, someone who you trust and who you know has got your back. Just to say, “I just want your support when I'm maybe ready to leave, if I've had enough, I'll give you the sign.” It is nice to feel that you have got that. It's interesting how I now have a lot of friends who don't drink much.
It's fascinating to me because five years ago I would've thought someone was weird if they didn't drink. This is the thing. I used to have this mentality that if you didn't drink, there was something wrong with you or you had a real problem. Even the stigma that we associate with people who choose not to drink, we've got to break that down. A lot of that does start in businesses and the workplace because I have clients who have been belittled through choosing not to drink by work colleagues and it's made it feel difficult for them.
That's such an interesting thing. You forget about that sort of pressure that's there and Friday night drinks and let's knock off early. Even like boozy lunches and things like that. I want to shout out Lucy Fagans from The Design Files because she has a huge audience and regularly talks about her relationship and her journey of not drinking and she shares tips and everything. The more that people can have those conversations, the better for everyone. I would love to talk to you about your business because you've got this PR background and because your business, as we've talked about, there is a stigma around reaching out to somebody as there still is around reaching out to a psychologist or getting mental health help in this country. How have you got the word out about your business and what has been the response from family and friends when you started it?
The main ways that I have got the word out about my business, funnily enough, have been through podcast interviews, and media interviews. In those conversations, people have been able to know and trust or hear something in what I've spoken about that's resonated. That's generally how I've got clients also through referrals, through clients and also I have some other health professionals who will refer clients as well. That's generally the way that I have got clients. The other really interesting thing is sometimes because you are a coach and not a psychologist or a counsellor, people feel that is a more accessible way to come in for support because coaching sounds different. I'm seeing a drug and alcohol counsellor and I've had a few clients who've come in and said it just, “I didn't feel as much shame or embarrassment.” Also, I felt like I was coming into an environment where the coach understood where I was because they talked about their own lived experience and that made me feel a lot less ashamed and judged.
It's true. I mean there's even in the health space, like I know I've got a client who is a coach for perimenopause and things like that. She has people that are like, “I'm going to learn loads from you.” But it's not like, you're going to some person who hasn't got lived experience of that or a man and you're going to get professional help. Like I think that's a great point to make. How does the coaching work? When people come to you? Do they say, “Here's my diary of all the alcohol I had?”
My coaching is one-on-one very much tailored to specific programs to the individual. I have sort of three signature programs. One of which is a binge drinking breakthrough program. Which is very tailored to binge drinkers. The other is a daily drinking freedom program. Then the shortest program, which is five sessions an alcohol reset program, which is more of an introduction, I guess starting to educate yourself around where you might be at and some tools and techniques to help support you. Whereas the other two programs are offered for 12 or 16 sessions. I don't specify that clients have to take those each week or fortnightly. It's very much tailored to their needs. With those programs, I recommend books. I have resources that I send them each week, depending on the conversation and the topics that we've touched through our coaching.
It's not an online program that you get and you click on and it's ready to go. It's very much, I like to say I use my intuition each week to work out what is best for that client because everyone learns differently. Some people like getting lots of podcasts, some people like to read books, some people just like the coaching and they don't want to do any work in the week. They don't want to listen to anything. But what I do say is you have to commit to some type of proactive action in your life and they decide what that will be each time we meet.
What do you hope that people most take away from this chat that we are having today?
I hope they take away that they can reflect and ask some questions about their relationship with alcohol and whether or not there's an opportunity for them to make some changes that might support their mental, physical and emotional health. If they have someone in their life who has decided to reassess their relationship with alcohol or might be having a break from alcohol, they will be supportive of that person. They will not shame them and they will see it as a positive decision because we don't know what people are going through in our life. If someone's made that choice, generally it's because they want to or they need to.
I'm sure there'll be lots here, but what are you most proud of from your time in this business to date?
I am most proud of the fact that I have changed people's lives for the better. I've changed their health, I've changed their relationships, and it's not me who's changed it, they have, but I have been able to do that by helping guide them and see a different way. When I get messages from clients saying to me that since doing a program or since working with me, that has changed and impacted their lives and the ripple effect that has had on it's more than about drinking. It's like there's this one big domino that's holding us back. We knocked that over and the ripple effect that has for people is incredible. I'm most proud of that because I set out to work in this industry because I wanted to be more purpose-driven and passionate about my career and my job. Right now I know I'm in that sweet spot. If I won millions of dollars tomorrow, I would not change the work that I do. That's how I know that I'm doing it for the love of it as well as the impact that it has, because I feel like the more people that can have a more balanced relationship with alcohol in their lives, the better our society can function.
I also want to say thank you for sharing your journey with breast cancer as well. I hope that you are healthy.
I'm coming up to five years. This year as well. I'm healthier than I've ever been. I feel really good. I use that experience as well as a reminder that life is short. Sometimes when mortality comes in sooner our questions of mortality come in sooner than we think. It gives us this beautiful opportunity to say, “How do I want to live my life? How do I want to live?” I have more choice in how I do that than I think I do often while on a treadmill just doing the same thing. I'll often just slowly take moments to appreciate the normal existence that I have right now because when I was going through breast cancer and all of the treatment, I longed to be just having a normal bad day. When I have a normal bad day, I go, “This is okay, this is just part of living.” For me, breast cancer was a huge healing learning journey I've taken a lot of gifts but I wouldn't wish it upon anyone.
I am going to book in and get a mammogram because I've been meaning to do it and now this, so outside of that, it would do it.
Do it, do it.
Yes. Absolutely and where can people connect with you if they're like, “That's it, I'm doing it 2024,” or whenever they're reading this is going to be the year I focus on my health. Seriously. Where do they connect? Where's the best place?
You can go to my website, thealcoholmindsetcoach.com. There's a lot of information about my programs and the interviews and things that I've done as well and you can book a 45-minute complimentary, no-obligation discovery call, just to have a chat with me to see whether we might be a good fit together. You can follow me on Instagram at The Alcohol Mindset Coach.
Thank you so much for coming on and thank you for not just being here, but I've seen the other media that you're doing and I just think like we've talked about getting the word out more people will just become aware and maybe question some things in their own life.
Absolutely. I'll just finish by saying, I also go into businesses and do webinars and talk about how you can make changes to alcohol in your life and the health and well-being benefits that you will get from that. Even if organizations are doing things in Feb or July or the lead-up to Christmas party celebrations, it's a great opportunity to remind people that there is another way to assess alcohol.
I think that is a huge sign to anyone who's in a big business. Especially because you're just reminding me, we had this health-like fitness guy in one of the places that I used to work and he organized these lunch and learn sessions and it was a huge corporation and I'm sure they paid a lot of money to this person that came in and they taught us how to make protein balls. I just think if we had had somebody like you, how much more of an impact that would've had on a whole bunch of middle-aged women and younger that alcohol was a big release in that particular culture. This is a huge thing if you have a business and you have quite a few staff.
Yes, please. It’s a lot of fun and it gives people even an opportunity. Sometimes you can bring in some alcohol-free drinks to try as well and people are really surprised they'll often be like, “Wow, that tastes pretty good.” Just because they're zero alcohol, it doesn't mean that you don't drink alcohol. There are a lot of people now who will drink zero-alcohol beers during the week because they just feel so much better and they taste pretty good.
They taste really good. Even some that you get in the supermarket, there's a brand that sells G&T’s and my friend had it at her house who doesn't drink. I was like, “This tastes like a GT.” This is lovely and you feel part of the group and all of that. I will link to all of these things in the show notes. But thank you again for coming on. I appreciate it.
Thanks, Fiona. I appreciate it as well. Thanks so much. Enjoyed our conversation.
Bye.
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Such an interesting chat. Honestly, Kathryn and I could have kept talking. I find this a fascinating interest area because I think just growing up in this country where it's just so prevalent and expected that you do drink, it's not really always even thought about that you don't drink the amount of people that have just offered me a glass of wine or sent wine at Christmas because there's this expectation that you do drink that everybody drinks. I think really refreshing to talk about this with somebody like Kathryn Elliott. You can check out everything that Kathryn has on offer at thealcoholmindsetcoach.com. You can also find her on Instagram under the same name, The Alcohol Mindset Coach. I'm going to talk about two things that stood out, although there was loads that stood out to me.
I've gone on this journey myself and I find it particularly interesting and I think Kathryn was talking about it, but two things that stood out for me firstly was just the awareness and asking yourself a couple of questions to get really aware of your relationship with alcohol. Kathryn talked about many times people aren't even aware that they're using it as something they depend on in order to feel okay in say social situations or going to a party or going to a barbecue or even going to a business networking event. If you just experiment, just ask yourself how would I go if I didn't have anything to drink tonight?
If I didn't have anything to drink this week or this month, how might I feel and would I feel totally fine? Would I feel like I'm just going to show up as myself whether I drink or not? Or do you feel a little nervous, a little anxious about that idea? Especially say a business networking thing where you are going to be meeting people for the first time. I think some of the questions that she said, she works with clients at the start and goes back and revisits those questions. It were just so important to really think how often am I choosing to relax without alcohol and is it impacting do I feel anxious the next day? Do I wonder what I've said? Have I gone down that kind of shame spiral that I used to plenty of times, especially in my younger years and be like, “What did I say? Did I talk about that?”
The amount of times I've actually said to myself, “I'm glad I don't drink anymore.” Because there have been situations, there's always going to be situations whether you drink or you don't, where you feel awkward or nervous or you're meeting new people and having a couple of glasses of wine would definitely make you feel better, but it's like, will it in the long term help me feel better? I love that she was talking about just that awareness, just really getting aware and sort of experimenting and testing and thinking, “Could I go X amount of days or months or whatever it is without alcohol?” Now I was raised Catholic and part of the Catholic tradition is that you have Lent, which is kind of 40 days where you give up something.
When I was a kid you had to give up like lollies or chocolate. In my younger years I definitely did alcohol free for Lent. I'd always find that really fascinating. And I do remember going to a friend's party and I remember this because it was one of the first parties I'd gone to when I wasn't drinking and I was in my early twenties. It was a different time. I went to the party and I just felt so awkward that I remember after about 40 minutes, I went and sat in my car outside the party for like an hour and then I went back inside the party and I think I stayed another 40 minutes. Then I just left because I was like, this is so awkward and uncomfortable and it is uncomfortable if you are doing something different to everyone.
As Kathryn and I talked about, there are many options now for non-alcoholic drinks and everything else. I think that just testing yourself if you're somebody who's reading this and thinking, “How would I go without having a wine? Or how would I feel if I had to turn up to something without having that kind of reliability on alcohol, how would it feel?” I think that was a huge and great question for her to talk about along with the other questions that Kathryn mentioned.
The second thing that I think we talked about that really is important is that idea of inclusivity for everyone. A lot of people will talk about diversity and inclusive inclusion and what they're doing, and of course those things are absolutely necessary. It's probably a lot less of a thought, and I'm not saying they're on equal parings at all, but that people do need to think about, “How am I accommodating?”
And not just people that have given up alcohol, but religious people that don't certain religions that don't drink alcohol maybe certain people that maybe have allergies to these things or maybe people that are pregnant and not being haven't told everyone yet that they're pregnant. There are always people at any event or any business thing that will, will not want to have to drink even if they're maybe they drink usually, but they're driving. I think it was really interesting to talk about having those options and also having those discussions in the workplace a lot of the time I've got friends who've worked in all sorts of corporates where drinking is such a huge part of the culture and there's boozy lunches and there's an expectation that you drink and that you work late. And don't worry we'll crack a bottle of wine after nine.
I just think that it's so prevalent everywhere and in the workplace where people can often utilize alcohol as a way of getting through stress and managing things. I think it's really important that if you have staff to think about what am I doing for people who maybe don't want to drink? All our social events revolve around going to a brewery or for a party end of the year or having a bottle of champagne every time we hit a certain milestone. What about the people who don't drink or don't want to partake in that? As we talked about, there's so many other options out there and Kathryn talked about her coming into businesses and helping them have these conversations and have some fun interactive activities around how we can look at our relationship with alcohol.
Again, it's not to say you should give up, everyone should give up. That's everyone's own journey. Maybe it's just a reduction of the amount of alcohol that you're having. It's just being aware of these sorts of things and having the conversation. Many other things stood out to me, but those are two that come to mind. I'd love to know what stood out for you. I'd love to know what you're taking away from this. You can always email us at hello@mydailybusiness.com. You can find us on Instagram at mydailybusiness_ or TikTok at mydailybusiness. Thank you again, Kathryn, for coming on and we'll link to all of her details in the show notes, which you'll be able to find for this episode at mydailybusiness.com/podcast/384. Finally, before you go, if you found this useful, I would love it so much if you could hit the subscribe button and leave us a review. It just really helps us get found by other small business owners. Who knows, maybe there's somebody out there right now who needs to hear what Kathryn has been talking about. Thanks for listening, I'll see you next time. Bye.
