Episode 394: Suki McMaster
In this episode, Fiona chats with the delightful Suki McMaster, an illustrator extraordinaire whose creativity knows no bounds. Suki also shares insights into her journey, discussing her unique path to entrepreneurship. Tune in!
You'll Learn How To:
Establishing a successful business in a new country
The creative process behind Suki's diverse product range
Balancing creativity with practical business aspects
Overcoming challenges and adapting to market demands
The importance of personal connections in business
Strategies for effective marketing
Learning to delegate and seek support in business growth
Finding alignment between business approach and personal values
Reflecting on proud moments
Get in touch with My Daily Business
Connect and get in touch with My Daily Business:
What I learned is that I don't need to talk a lot, but if the extra questions I ask people, they usually remember you, they come into the shop, I'll ask them, “Who are you buying this for?” And then they will start to tell you their story and it becomes a good, nice conversation when they leave the shop. This is very important to make them have that good positive impact in their mind when they leave and that drives them to read all the newsletter and Facebook and that's a good thing.
————-
Welcome to episode 394 of the My Daily Business podcast. Today is a small business interview with somebody who is so beautifully positive, super creative, curious and just a wonderful person to chat with. Before we get stuck into that interview. I of course want to acknowledge the land on which I am coming from and the traditional owners and custodians of that land. And that is the Wurrung and Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation. And I pay my respects to their elders, past, and present, and acknowledge that sovereignty has never been ceded.
The other thing I wanted to mention is that Marketing for Your Small Business online course is available at any time but twice a year we do offer a live coaching component to that. You do the course in your own time and then you come to an hour of live coaching that runs for nine consecutive weeks. The aim is that you not only buy the course and get through it, but you work through it with guidance and help. At the end of the nine weeks, you present your marketing plans to me and the rest of the group. It is a way of keeping you accountable and making sure that Marketing for Your Small Business is not just a course that you buy and then never go through. It's a course that you buy and you implement the learnings from. If you're interested in that, you can find all the information at marketingforyoursmallbusiness.com. Let's get into today's small business interview.
————-
Today I am talking to the wonderful Suki McMaster and yes, that is her real name. When I saw that, I was like, “That is the coolest last name. Did you make that up because you're the master of what you do?” She was like, “No, it's genuinely my last name.” I love that because she is a master in the creative space and many of you listening will know the art and the creativity and the goodness that comes from Suki McMaster. In today's chat, we talk all about what Suki did originally because this was not the career path that she was on when she finished school and got into university studies, how she has created this business in a country that she's not from, she's originally from Hong Kong. Also how she decides on the different products that she creates and what all of that has been like as well as being the face of your brand, which I know that lots of people who listen to this podcast, lots of people I work with struggle with that showing up on social media, showing up in their marketing. It's such a beautiful chat and Suki is just such a gorgeous soul. It's wonderful to have her on the podcast. Here it is, my interview with Suki McMaster.
————-
Welcome to the podcast Suki. How are you feeling about life right now?
I am fantastic, thank you. I'm super excited to be here today. I'm a big fan of yours so I'm very excited.
I'm equally a fan of yours so I am also excited. Tell us about your business. Lots of people listening will know about it. I'm sure lots of them already follow you. You do a lot of different things and you do it under one brand name, which is also your name. Tell us about what your business is.
I am an illustrator and I put my drawings on everything and anything that I can think of. I have cushions, tee towels, baby clothing prints and everything else. I have the shop itself, Melbourne Market and it has been about eight years. The shop sells mainly my products, but I also have a little bit of other products from local makers and designers. These are the people that I met at different markets because I do a lot of interstate markets so I get to know a lot of creatives. It's nice to support each other.
When you've just said it then like how you got started and you do interstate markets. How did you start and how did you go from an illustrator to I'm going to create products?
I started to do markets in my uni days. I always make something but I remember my first days were selling just fabrics. I just have my drawings principle on fabrics from spoon flowers and sell them at markets. I was living in Sydney at that time and I was so crazy. I will fly to Melbourne to do row street market and then from back, that was like 20 years ago. When Row Street first starts, because in Sydney you only have some markets are long Bondi, it's not arty, crafty place in Sydney. I decided to fly to Marketer Road Street and then fly back the same day I was crazy.
Did you just carry it in suitcases?
Yes, just suitcases. When you're young you do stupid things like that.
How long did it take for you to get the store there? The other part is in the South Melbourne market now. How long have you been in business before you then were like I want a permanent space?
We're very lucky we sold our house to a developer in Sydney. We had the chance to choose what to do and I told my husband, I wanted to give it a go. We moved to Melbourne but it was such a big gamble because when, before we moved to Melbourne, all the markets that we did were so bad we couldn't pay for anything. We couldn't even pay for macas for lunch and was so bad. But the fire in you, you always think that it will work. We just decided to move to Melbourne. We had our first popup for about eight weeks and then two popups later we had a shop in South Melbourne market and that's eight years.
I always find it interesting and I know I'm putting you on the spot here to have like lots of people have an idea and lots of people have that ambition inside them and a lot of people don't do anything with that. A lot of people work in a safe job and there's nothing wrong with that. And a lot of people like it's a privilege to be able to start a business. It is. A lot of people don't have that at all. But I think sometimes, like I know for me, I had parents who were incredibly supportive and particularly at the end, at the start they were a bit like, can you not do this? Like whole creative stuff, like what are you going to do with your life?
I was working at a lot of call centres and things, but in the end, they were like they were always supportive but they didn't understand having your own business. My sister's a doctor, my brother's a psychologist, my other brother's a lawyer. I was maybe an outlier, but I'm always interested in how you have the ambition to take that idea and make something of it. I know you said the property had allowed you to be able to do stuff, but did you grow up in a family where your parents were very like, just do whatever your heart desires?
I have typical Asian parents who do not want me to do anything creative. I have a master's in accounting. I hate numbers. But I did it anyway. I don't even do my book, I just don't like it. But when you're at that age, mom tells you what to do and then you just do it and you don't think what you want. My dad has a business in the construction industry, but it was ups and downs a lot and he will never expect me to do my own thing. But when I started, my mom still didn't recognise my business, the value of it. She's like, “I guess you can find a job one day.”
You never think that this is a real job but it's okay. Yes. I just accept who she is and think that it's the culture, it's just not.
And generations as well. I think like my parents, we all came out here when I was four. I was the youngest of four. My parents were very much like, we've sacrificed to get you here. Now you have to get a good education, you get a good job. And a job was very easy for them to relay to everyone. She's a doctor. I mean everyone knows what that means. That's mine, but where I was, I remember my dad being like, even when I worked at Amazon in the UK and I could say to him, this is a shop, it's online, it sells millions of products and I am in the marketing team for this. He would be like, “Right.” And he had his Irish accent like people just buy things online. I’m like, “They do Dad, they buy millions.” But just that it wasn't as easy to describe. And then if that didn't come from your family, where did that come from, that ambition and when did you decide, I've got a master's of accounting but I'm going to be an illustrator?
I don't even work in the accounting industry for one second in my life. I worked in the hospital before but I think once you start working for someone you realize that, am I that type of person that can do this forever? And the answer is no. I always know that I am not working for some, I'm not a good employee. I never follow the rules. I don't listen to my manager. Everyone loves me. When I left some of the jobs my manager cried but it's never my thing. I’m a good team member but I just like, I only do it because I like you.
I feel like people could just fall in love with you all the time. I feel like you're so upbeat and even just chatting with you now I'm just laughing and having such a nice time. That leads me to like, you are a huge part of your brand, obviously the brand is, and it's part and parcel of you and you're the face of the business and you show up on social media and you show up at events and everything else. Has that always been something that came very naturally to you to be like, I can get out, I can meet people, I can be the face of the brand? Or have you had to work on that?
I worked hard and I'm still working. I'm an introvert. I'm much better now. I used to just hide behind my husband or just hide behind the desk and hope people would just pay me money and leave me and not talk to me. I'm not a look-at-me person. It's hard to learn, but you need to, this is a very essential skill. You don't need to be dramatic and put a show on, but to have a good conversation is important. I think part of the reason is English is not my first language, sometimes I do feel a little bit awkward and don't know what to do. And once that scare comes into my head I'm like, I can't talk anymore. I have to go but I'm learning, I'm still getting, I'll get there.
I feel like you're already doing so well in that department. Was there anything besides pushing yourself, I mean, you've mentioned your husband a few times. Is he a big supporter? Did you do any training or did you read everything or were you just like, this is part of my business, I just need to suck it up and put myself out there.
I used to get him to do everything. Pick up phone calls. I still don't pick up the phone, but I try to put myself as hard as I can. Especially with the shop and we do a lot of wholesale, so you need to have the confidence to talk to people. It's just finding your way. I don't drink so I won't push myself to drink but at the same time, I find my way to blending.
I also gave up drinking a while ago and I've never thought of it like that, but having the ability to just have fun and enjoy yourself in a situation without alcohol, it's similar to like, in a way getting out there on social media and having fun and figuring out a way to do it that you're comfortable with.
It is so hard when social media has a lot of people jumping around. I'm just like, this is a nightmare. I can't do this. But now we have two girls at the shop and they love jumping around so they can do it.
Handing it over. With your vision and when you started you're like, I'm going to do illustrations and that's so personal. It's like somebody doesn't buy it I'm sure you could take that personally like this is my art. It's not just something I've bought from somebody else and I'm trying to sell to you. What challenges did you face in balancing that creative vision? And this is what I want to do and it's my artwork with the actual practical aspects of this needs to sell. I need to figure out what sells. Especially with stockers and wholesale, you need to be creating things that people want to buy.
Yes. I should say, that when I first started the business, I didn't look at the word balance too seriously. I just do what I like and see if people like it and you change gradually to see if people like this work and I will just do more of those instead of just being me. It's a give-and-take. But it's never a balance. Otherwise, I will be a graphic designer and just work for someone and just separate. It's hard not to take it personally.
With the practical parts of running this, I think a lot of creative small business owners are also like self-deprecating. But you do because you've done well. This business has been going on for a long time now.
Is it eight years in the book?
Before that, you were doing things and you've been also going to all these different markets and as you said at the start you were flying down for these and now you know there are markets everywhere now with incredible big companies and markets that are in every major city. Can you tell us a bit about markets the practical things that you've learned and things that you wouldn't do again? Or if somebody's listening and they're like, I would love to have my stuff at a market, what would you tell them? The do's and the don'ts.
Always go, always give it a go. Especially when you're new. But I do think when you decide which market to go to, ask yourself what's the objective of going to the market. Is it just brand awareness? Money is always the goal but there should be something else as well. Like do you want more people to know you? Do you want your newsletter to test a new product? That thing. I remember the first Queensland finders keepers that I went to before COVID-19, I set a stupid goal, which was to make $10,000 in two and a half days. But my product's only $20. I don’t know what I was thinking. My husband did tell me gently that I shouldn't have that high expectation, but I just told him off. But yes, be realistic and also do your research. Check out who's going to the market, also think about who you want to sell to.
And just because all your friends are telling you that the market is good, it doesn't mean it's your market. You always just test it, do your research, go there, stand there for half a day and see who's buying what. It is important. Also, at least give six months or a year to define whether your market is a success or not because, in my opinion, it takes a long time to build up your customers and know your products and never let the first market define who you are.
When you do markets, I mean now that you've been doing them for a long time, do you just take what sells in the shop in your South Melbourne market that will sell everywhere else? Or do you go, this is this particular audience I need to bring more of like let's say your reusable coffee cups of which I have one and I use it all the time. How do you define what stock you need to bring to the market?
I'm still learning every market every year is different. But something that sells in Sydney will never sell in Melbourne. Something that sells in Melbourne does not sell in Queensland. That is all, I always adjust my products, depending on where I go. And price range as well. Sydney people, maybe I shouldn't say that, but Sydney people seem to spend a little bit more compared to people in Melbourne. But Melbourne people do like more quirky and colorful stuff and Sydney likes to be more black and white pale colour.
I just came back from Sydney and I love Sydney. I have a lot of people that listen in Sydney. I have a lot of clients who are from Sydney and I was just in Sydney the other day. I go there probably four times a year and I was like, people in Sydney dressed so nicely. I felt like I was in my Birkenstocks, which I just never take off. I was like, everyone's a bit fancy here. Even at the airport I was in, I thought is there a fashion trade show or something? I know there was like a homewares one but I was like man, people are fancy. I get what you're saying about that. Is there anything you would recommend with like the actual stall setup, like stuff that you've learned where you're like, you should have a newsletter capture signup page or a competition or some lollies or something to guide people to the shop or the stall. Is there anything like that you would recommend?
I'll recommend always having your price signage clear because there are half of the people don't want to talk to you. You just need to have everything very clear so they can read it. Just prepare. The people will ask you questions. The newsletter, we do have signage for the newsletter which is mostly a QR code. Because after covid no one wants to write down anything. But that's the main thing. You have to change and learn every market. I'm still learning every time I make some changes and it can go well or go bad.
In that as well. Like getting out there, meeting people, and getting exposure through markets. That's huge. What other marketing has worked well for you over the years?
Interestingly word of mouth works well for me is an old fashioned word of mouth. I think it's because we have a shop. We get a lot of people to tell their friends to come to the points that we have. Customers will come into the shop every year, they're from overseas and they're like, whenever we come to Melbourne we have to come to your shop to have a look. It's just rewarding if it feels like we're doing the right thing. The second thing is the customer service that we have in the shop is something that you cannot replace online. I think there's something different, isn't it? Everyone's telling you, we need to go on Instagram and do this and do that. But when you have a shop and do market or doing market and the connection with people, it's so important and it's just worth every penny.
I would say that you are amazing at that because you and I met at Finders Keepers business. And I talked to a lot of people that day and you stood out and you were just like, you've got this beautiful big smile and chatty and colourful. I was like, I definitely can imagine that if you are shopping around a big market where there are hundreds of stalls it can be overwhelming. I've gone to a lot of markets working at a lot of markets and trade shows and it can feel like wow so much, so much stimulus. And then you remember those little human connections that you have throughout the day with actual people.
Yes. That's something that I learned, going back to those introvert questions. What I learned is that I don't need to talk a lot, but if the extra questions I ask people, they usually remember you, they come into the shop, I'll ask them, “Who are you buying this for?” And then they will start to tell you their story and it becomes a good, nice conversation when they leave the shop. This is very important to make them have that good positive impact in their mind when they leave and that drives them to read all the newsletters and Facebook and that's a good thing
It's such interesting. That very small twist between, I would say 95% of the time someone will say, “What are you looking for today?” You might say, I'm looking for a candle or I'm looking for whatever a baby outfit. Where is your saying, who is this going to? Tell me about the person. This is such a beautiful way of crafting it, but it's such a tiny tweak that I would imagine makes a huge difference.
It does, yes. Because some people just don't want to talk. But if you're talking about their friends, they're happy. Talk about their friends.
This child has been so wanted for so many years and then they finally got pregnant and now I want to buy them something beautiful.
Yes.
It is a much more beautiful human story than I'm looking for a onesie in this size.
Yes, exactly.
I love it. With your products, you encompass a diverse range of creations from beautiful aprons and wall prints and ceramics. How do you manage the creative process when you have so many different mediums? It's not all just clothing, it's not all ceramics.
That's a huge mistake, but as a creative, you can't help yourself. But in the old days when I first started, I was self-taught and I didn't know how to do a product or collection-wise to design a product, to design a collection. Also, I just draw something and think, does it look like looking good on the cushion? Does it look good on a cup? If they do, I put the picture on. If they don't, I just leave it. But these days it's about, it's half and half. Some days I do need to design towels just for the Christmas season. Then I think, what looks good on the towels? I draw that purposely. But it's always watercolour colour, pencils, iPad, Photoshop is a mixture of different things. Wish me good luck.
If someone's listening in and they are an aspiring creative and they're thinking, I want to go on this similar journey to you, what are the things that you would tell them to avoid or flip side, what things would you have done more of? I often think I could have got into social media earlier or podcasting. I waited three years to do this podcast because I thought my voice sounded very nasally. Because I've had three operations on my nose, I've got lots of sinus problems. I was just convinced that people would be like, her voice is so nasally. And no one has ever said that ever. I would go back and do that. But like for you, what would you do more of? Or what would you suggest people don't do that you did?
Don't do anything than I'm doing. I think I have a huge collection that I don't think is necessary to start to become that crazy when you first start. Keep everything small, but always evolve with the business. When I first started, I only wanted a homeware store. I never want the baby stuff and everything else. But when people come in they buy the products, the cushions are for the kids or the cups are for grandchildren, then I realise, this is what people want. You change the direction to more kids-focused products. And now we have people buying prints, a lot of prints. We focus more on the prints. You always change depending on what people want. Never just fix yourself to one thing. I think that's why I chose the brand name as my name because I will never be just one thing.
I can be anything. But it's very tempting for creative. It's so easy to just do this and do that. And you'll end up having a lot of products at home that you don't know what to do. This is a shop we know if you only have two or three products, it will never sell. You need to have a collection so you better off just choosing one or two things that you think or love doing. Then focus on them and have a few varieties for people to choose from. And that, I think that's just the psychological side of the business. But just be more focused. It's so easy and creative. We love everything.
Yes. And I'm putting you on the spot again, but on the topic of, you said you've hired some people that work in the South Melbourne market store. Where were you when you decided I needed to hire other people to come into this?
When things are out of control, you just need a second person. I have been hiring for the shop for a long time. I just cannot be at the shop and doing all the drawings and all the business stuff at the same time. But that person is only for the shop. It's never do marketing or newsletter, that thing. It's never a real assistance. It's only recently that I just let go. I just like, can you do this for me, please? I can't handle this just too much. Which is good. I think having someone helps me to understand what I'm good at, what I can let go of, and what people can do with me is a learning process about myself as well.
Business is such a learning process. I always think it's like the other psychologist and your person getting psychology. But then I put that on TikTok recently and the lovely Marian Piper replied saying, “You are also the trauma.” You're the trauma and you're the psychologist and you're the person getting. On that note, outside of helping yourself by hiring people and learning to let go, have you had any business mentors or sources of inspiration that helped you along this journey? Have you read any books or films that you're like, this has helped? And likewise, any like tech tools or apps that you like, could not run the business without this.
You are my best inspiration. I read your book and I listen to your podcast every week and it's just so good. I especially like the short training. Those are handy. Because sometimes I just need to drive through the post office and that's the time that I have to listen to something useful. And it's good. I constantly read books online, but I'm wiring down a little bit so I don't get too over overwhelmed and confused. My husband, he's always my person. Anything that uses logic, is going to him.
He business own thing. And then just supporting on the side or is he part of your business?
Has his things. But to me, he's always in. He can't get away with it. Yes. He's just constantly listening. Even just listening. He just needs to listen to me winging all the time.
I love that. Sorry, I interrupted you. Anyone else or any other books or anything you'd recommend or apps?
No, it is the people. It's the people around you. I think that's more important than anything in.
I completely agree. What are you most proud of from your journey in business so far?
There are so many proud moments. My artwork goes to License to Spotlight or opening the shop but the proudest time is when people come to me and say how my products become their journey, become their story. It's not very often, but now and then people come in and say to me, I'll just give you an example because all my drawings have a story behind them, there's always the inspiration behind them. When I first started the shop, a customer came in, and she grabbed a cushion, it had “Love you more” written on the cushions and the teddy bear drawings, and she got it. I said to her, “I draw this because my husband says it to me all the time.” And she said I'm getting it for my daughter because my husband used to say to her all the time and my husband passed away. A moment like this knowing my work is someone else. Life becomes their story. It happens now and then. When people tell me stories like this just makes me feel, I'm here for a reason.
That is so beautiful. I use your cups, whether you have reusable cups. We have two in the house and there's a blue bluish one and I'll say to my son, “No, get the blue one out.” And I was thinking about this before I hit record because I use it so often. He knows it. Everything else. And last year I went to visit my mom's sister in Ireland my mom passed away and she had these little cups on her like to have cups of tea. I was like, you have the same cups that mom had and she, I haven't seen them since like probably the 1980s or 1990s. For the rest of that trip when I went to Spain and London, I was desperate to find a cup and bring home to be like, that's my bit of my mom. I always think these things like people might come into your store and never tell you what they're buying it for, but then that becomes like exactly what you said, part of their story and part of their memories of childhood or other things in their life.
Yes. People are coming to buy the print that they're living in Melbourne, but they were born in Adelaide so they have the Adelaide he'll print on their wall just to remind them where they are from. It's just a story like this. It doesn't need to be a big huge event.
If people have not seen your beautiful products or they're listening and they want to connect with you or they want to come and see your store, if they're maybe coming to Australia or Melbourne from anywhere in the world, where can they connect with you and what is next for you?
They can always find me at the South Melbourne market. I have to shop, I work there on Wednesday and Sunday, but find me on Instagram then you can find out what's happening with my life. It’s @sukimcmaster. What's next? Something exciting but I can't tell you yet. But I will be in a big design market in May.
That's so exciting. I will make sure that we link to everything and your website.
Yes, it's just my name.
We were talking before we hit record. It is your name, McMaster. We'll link to all of that and then also your social so that people can go and follow and find out what this big exciting thing is.
Yes, please. Thank you.
Cool. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing and just providing so many insights and tips.
Thank you for having me. Thank you. Bye. See you later.
————-
How delightful is Suki such a beautiful, kind, curious creative person and her illustrations are just so gorgeous. I have multiple Suki McMaster products and if you haven't checked them out, you need to, you can find all of them at sukimcmaster.com. You can also go on over to Instagram and see everything they're doing there at @sukimcmaster. For this episode, you'll be able to find the show notes at mydailybusiness.com/podcast/394. I just took away so many things from that and I know you will too. I am going to highlight two of these as always. The first is when, and I think this is something that gets missed a lot, not even, I think I know because I talk to people and they haven't thought of these things and I love that Suki brought it up.
If you are going to do any trade show market, et cetera, make sure you think about your objective. Like what is it that you're trying to get outside of necessarily meeting stockers and getting sales? It's like what else are you trying to get? Are you trying to make connections? Are you trying to build up your email list? Are you trying to get feedback on a new collection or a new product line? Utilizing that time, especially those face-to-face conversations, especially if you're like a wholesaler or you don't have a physical shop like Suki does. Many people who do markets are not yet at that stage of having a physical shop. This is some of the only time that they can get that direct feedback from people as they're looking at products, as they're observing and asking questions and asking different things that even where is it made, how is it made?
How long does it take you to make it? How do you come up with your illustrations using these questions then as content for your marketing that's what lots of people are thinking if that's what they're saying to you at a market. I love that she brought up that if you're going to put this time and energy and effort and she put the effort in with flying to Melbourne to do markets, then make sure you're getting something out of it and that you are clear on why you're doing it and what you want from it. I love that she brought that up. The second thing that spoke to me was when Suki talked about figuring out a way to do business that aligns with who you are now, Suki talked about being an introvert and when people came in the shop, she was jokingly like, don't talk to me.
But then when they do, she was like, I've figured out a way to have like these beautiful real conversations with people and that it doesn't have to be, you know how she talked about it in social media like jumping around and everyone's like hyped up and that's not her. She was like, try and figure out a way to do it the way that feels aligned with you. Once you get Suki talking, as you can hear, she's just so bubbly and positive and interesting and curious and so heartfelt as well. You can just imagine that in a beautiful conversation within a store or in a market as well. I think she's figured out a way to do it that completely aligns with who she is. I think a lot of the time, especially when you're starting in business or you're doing a new you're bringing in a new production of something or a new service offering, you sometimes look around at what other people are doing in the market and you're like, that's how it's supposed to be done.
Even if that feels a bit ick for you. I remember years ago I did an Instagram story for this partnership I was doing and I just remember I did it and it was just not me. And this is at least God six years ago. I remember my husband saw it and he said, who is that? Because that is not you. I was like, I know. And it felt weird, it felt icky. I felt like I was trying to show up as somebody else and I deleted it because I just felt like, you know what, I'm going to figure out a way to do this partnership content that isn't like all the other people they've worked with. I ended up just doing it my way and it worked. They were happy, but when I first did it, I was like, these are the last five other people they've worked with and this is how they did it.
They all did it similarly, so I should just do it like that. And it just felt wrong. I felt wrong when I was filming it. It just did not sound like me. I was like, okay, just what can I do in a way that's going to feel good for me? Because if you put out that energy and people can tell it's not you, you feel a bit fake, it's not going to come across well and it's not going to do well. I love that she has figured out a way to align who she is with how she presents the business online as well as in-store. So much to take away. I'd love to know what you thought of that. Please, you can always message us at my daily business on Instagram or just at my daily business on TikTok or you can send us an email at hello@mydailybusiness.com. If you want to get in touch with Suki, as I said before, Instagram is @sukimcmaster one word and the website is sukimcmaster.com. Thank you so much Suki for coming on and thank you for reading. If you found this useful, I would love it so much if you could leave a review or hit the stars on Apple or Spotify or wherever you listen to this podcast. Thanks for reading. Bye.
