Episode 400: Phoebe Bell of Sage x Clare
In this episode, Phoebe returns as a special guest reflecting on the journey from her second-ever interview on episode 4 to now. They discuss the evolution of Sage and Clare and navigating family dynamics within the business. Tune in!
You'll Learn How To:
Evolution of Sage and Clare from early days to now
Experience of hiring and building a team
Family dynamics within the business, including Phoebe's sister and husband being part of the team
Advice for those intimidated by the tech side of e-commerce
Developing and implementing a loyalty program for the business
Challenges and successes in outsourcing technical work
Challenges in understanding the scope of building a loyalty program
Developing brand identity
Financial considerations and sustainability in loyalty programs
Strategies for converting existing customers into loyalty program members
Market analysis and benchmarking against competitors
Navigating economic uncertainties and fears of business failure
Adaptation to changing market dynamics and consumer behaviour
Importance of brand loyalty and customer service
Strategies for managing and nurturing relationships with stockists
Success factors and challenges in maintaining a consistent social media presence
Evolution of involvement in social media management
Importance of mentorship, learning from mistakes, and continuous improvement
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I think if you're someone that's in the early days of doing everything and you're starting to think about maybe hiring someone, I certainly had the perspective that no one could do it like I do. I was a little bit stubborn in that and I was like, I couldn't possibly hire someone for that because they definitely wouldn't be able to understand this. Like I understand it and probably a bit arrogant in that regard. I think first things first, you can always hire someone who can do what you do. Just know that. You may not necessarily find that person straight off the bat, but there are people out there with an incredible skillset who will be able to do the job as you do it. And probably better, to be honest.
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Welcome to episode 400 of the My Daily Business podcast. Today it is an interview episode and I chose somebody incredibly special and amazing to bring on for this 400th episode of this podcast. Before we get stuck into that, I want to acknowledge the land and the traditional owners and custodians of that land that I recorded this podcast and where I've recorded these 400 episodes and that is the Wurrung and Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation. And I pay more respects to their elders, past, and present, and acknowledge that sovereignty has never been ceded. Let's get into episode 400.
I cannot believe that I am here at episode 400 of this podcast and that so many of you listen to this all around the world and it's just such an incredible thing to think, “Wow”, 400 episodes we have done. This started with an idea that maybe I'd do 10 episodes and see how it went. But for today's 400th episode, it just so happened that it's an interview and I knew exactly who I wanted to have on here because this person is a very close friend of mine, had also an incredible, phenomenal business owner who has built such a beautiful brand that is so synonymous with colour and boldness and beauty and awe and all of the things. Also the person who was my second ever guest on this podcast. Before this podcast was out, before she knew if it would be a complete flop or not, she said yes to coming onto the podcast.
When we recorded that episode, which was episode four of this podcast, we had just literally met, we had met not that long ago in a book club and it was the very start of the pandemic and we started going for walks together. Since then, have created this beautiful friendship that I'm so thankful for. When I thought about who I wanted to come on for episode 400, absolutely there was nobody else that was topping the list like today's guest. Today's guest is the amazing and inspirational Phoebe Bell. Phoebe is the founder of Sage and Clare, which many of you will know. It is creating incredible bohemian, handmade treasures from around the world. It's soulful, it's eclectic, it is a brier of joy and colour and just the most beautiful pieces into your home, into your life, into your wardrobe.
Today I wanted to get Phoebe back on and talk about what has happened since you were on episode four in both business and life. Way back when I was interviewing Phoebe in 2020, she was pregnant with her second child, and she's now her three children. She has grown her business from, I'm not sure how many staff she had back then, but now she's got about 50. She has moved into this gigantic warehouse, this different property just so many changes have happened. They've done so many different collaborations, just it, it's incredible what she has built and continues to build and continues to grow and nurture and lead. In today's chat, we talk all about how Sage and Clare have changed and evolved since 2020, but also how Phoebe herself has changed and evolved and stepped into her role and been able to create and bring on the most incredible team to build Sage and Clare into what it is and what people adore and love the brand for.
We talk about so many things in this chat. I know that it'll be so helpful for anyone in business regardless of where you are, particularly if you are trying to grow your business. In terms of growth, hiring people, bringing people on, changing systems, evolving your e-commerce evolving your website, there's so much in it and Phoebe is just a wealth of knowledge. Every time I talk to her about business, which we talk about lots of other things as well, I'm just blown away by her knowledge, her determination, and her ambition. She is genuinely such a person that I look up to in my life. She has an incredible family. She's very hands-on with her children, her partner and the rest of her extended family. She's an incredible, very thoughtful and very considerate friend and she's just killing it at business as well. I had to have the beautiful Phoebe Bell from Sage and Clare. I know that this interview is just going to be so helpful for so many of you and I took away a lot from it as well. Here is my interview with the wonderful Phoebe Bell of Sage and Clare.
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Welcome to the podcast again, Phoebe, I'm so excited to have you on.
Thank you for inviting me back. I'm very excited to chat with you.
I am so excited because you are a special guest for episode 400 and I made sure that that happened because you were a second ever interview on this podcast on episode 4. And you and I were just saying before we hit record, I had just met you Ben, and it feels so different now because we have such close friends and everything else. But also you had like a different business. But before we get stuck into that, how are you right now in this moment? How do you feel about life?
I feel good and congratulations by the way on your podcast. That is an amazing achievement and thank you. I feel very special to be asked back for your 400th episode. I'm feeling good about life. I feel like we've I've had some probably fairly challenging times in between us recording the last podcast and now definitely some very personally challenging times. But I'm feeling good now. I feel like I'm very much optimistic about life and about the future and I feel like we went through quite a bit of stuff to be where we are now. It's nice to finally just settle a little bit, catch our breath and just be in a place to I guess reflect on what we've done but then be able to like look forward and I'm excited.
I'm excited for you. When we last spoke, I mean we speak all the time, but when we last spoke on this podcast, you were pregnant with your second child, Heidi, and now you're a mom to three children and you have a child in school and everything else. You have so many more staff, you have moved offices, you've moved warehouses, you've launched multiple collections, and so many collaborations, life has been super busy. How do you see the business and like the biggest change in the business since we spoke and that was early 2020?
I mean early 2020, we all know what in insured the, the years following that, which I won't focus on too much because I just don't think any of us need to focus on that so much. But I think probably the biggest change has been that I think when we last spoke, I used to wear a lot more hats and I used to be across the ins and outs of the business in a much more detailed way. I think since then, I mean I've got three kids now. We've got more staff, we've moved warehouse, we've got so many more systems and processes in place that it just, you can't be in the weeds of everything so much. I feel like it's just been a lot of maturing as a business. It's sometimes it's all the unsexy stuff that you have to focus on.
I think that's what a lot of it's been since we last spoke. As well as, for me, I have been able to identify what my true strengths are within this business. I feel like I've got a role that is that, and then I've been able to create the team around me and this business that brings the expertise of so many other people in. I think that's the biggest change. I feel like I can sink my teeth into what I do in a focused way. I loved wearing a lot of hats, but I also love learning from other people now who are in these roles and can teach me.
Such a good response. I was going to say, I normally have asked people, to please describe your business, but I haven't asked you. And then I was thinking when you started talking, were you doing clothing, was apparel part of Sage and Clare in 2020? Or maybe it was just starting.
I don’t know, it might have just started. I think we may have just started in apparel.
And now you've done, you do like all of these homeware like balls and all of these other harder things as well. How do you describe Sage and Clare? Because I missed that. For anyone who has not heard of Sage and Clare, how do you describe it as a business today?
I describe it as a lifestyle brand. We are all about colour and texture and handmade goods. We do everything from, as you mentioned, apparel through to bed, linen through to cushions, towels, and resin. We've got it all in terms of someone who is a colour lover looking for products that I think are intentional, soulful and bring personality to yourself or your space.
It's funny because you just had your birthday recently and I said to you that I was in one of my client stores looking for a present for you and I kept picking everything up and it was Sage and Clare. I was like, I didn't know they did this. I didn't know they did that, but I was like, I can't find everything for you because everything is your brand. You mentioned that a lot of what's changed is you being able to be fully in your role and having one main role as opposed to wearing every different hat. Hiring has been a huge part of your business. And just before we got on this, you were interviewing people and growing the business. You've grown that massively over the last few years. What was your first hire or who was your first hire and how did that happen? And then can you talk us through the team today? Like you've mentioned just then you're learning from all these people, but who is involved and also how does it feel because you've got a busy home life, you've got your social life, everything, and then you come in and you're also this boss with all these people that work for your business. How does that feel?
In terms of my first hire, it's probably my sister Gem. When I started the business, I had no experience in what I do and she does. She is a textile designer and graphic designer. I think she was the first person that I went to and said, “Hey, do you want to come along on this ride?” Fortunately, she said yes. I think I probably used the term hire loosely. I don't know if we had a lot of money in the early days. But we did work out an arrangement between us where she provided her expertise and she was able to help with establishing lots of aspects of the business. I think I followed that with my dad and a friend and I remember being pregnant with Jude, who's now seven and thinking, I obviously can't run a business to the same level that I was and have a baby, although I did work many hours.
I realised that I needed to hire some people to help even just pack orders and do some customer service and that thing. I think in the early days, and maybe many of your listeners can relate, you are almost looking at your existing network of friends or family or people that someone that you know and you're like, “Okay, great if you're just happy to pitch in and do stuff, then you are hired.” Versus now, I think we've expanded so much since then. I don't exactly, I should know how many staff we have. It's somewhere between 45 and 50 people. I think that has meant a huge change in terms of the structure and how we go about hiring people. We have myself, I'm the creative director, and my husband has also joined the team.
He calls himself the non-creative director. And then we have our general manager, Aaron. And then underneath that we have a whole lot of leaders. They're department leaders, so everything from a warehouse manager to marketing and PR to a production and design manager. There are lots of different managers involved in that and they make up the leadership team. We meet regularly as a leadership team to discuss, I guess more broadly the objectives of the business and the strategic objectives. And then within those departments, there's a team sitting within them that reports to those team leads. There's quite a structure there, which I think in terms of, you asked me how it feels, it feels good because I think we've got that structure right. I think there's enough it's not as if I have that many people reporting directly to me. Obviously, my door's always open and I'm happy to have a chat with anyone here, but I couldn't possibly keep track of where everyone's at across the business. I think the structure is fantastic and it works well I think it is for anyone wanting to pursue a leadership or management role as well, it's awesome because they also have the autonomy to run their team and manage their team as they'd like as well. That's where we're at at the moment.
That's huge that you have so many people working there. I think I saw the other day that 97% of all companies in Australia are small businesses and employ so many people. It's huge. What are some of the things that you've learned about hiring that you'd suggest to others or you'd suggest that people could learn from? If someone's listening and maybe they're going to hire their first staff, like you've hired so many people now, senior people in all sorts of roles, but like what are the things that stand out to you now?
I think if you're someone that's maybe in the early days of doing everything and you're starting to think about maybe hiring someone, I certainly had the perspective that no one could do it like I do. I was a little bit stubborn in that and I was like, I couldn't possibly hire someone for that because they definitely wouldn't be able to understand this. Like I understand it and probably a bit arrogant in that regard. I think first things first, you can always hire someone who can do what you do. Just know that. You may not necessarily find that person straight off the bat, but there are people out there with an incredible skillset who will be able to do the job as you do it and probably better, to be honest. I think that's first and foremost.
I think if you're a little bit more established, I've learned so many things about hiring, but I do also think it sounds very obvious, but I think you should look to hire the best person for the job. There's certainly a business point often when you are in the early years you sometimes can't afford to hire the best person or perhaps you need someone to wear so many hats that you can't necessarily hire that expert. But I think as soon as you are in a position where you can, you absolutely should, and I think you should take your time in hiring. Sometimes, I know this might seem wild, but we've needed positions to be filled sometimes it might take us eight or nine months to do that because I'm just not confident with the candidates that we're interviewing.
They don't excite me like I want them to. I can't visualize them as well as I'd like to join the team. I think that's important. Just take your time. I feel like the other lesson I've learned is like learn to fail fast. I think when you're involved in recruitment, there's a bit of ego attached to that candidate. You've gone through interviews, you've assessed them, you've thought you've followed your gut, and you think that you've done a good job, but not every candidate will work out and not everyone is who you think that they will be, whether that's from a cultural fit, whether that's from a skillset fit. I think you should probably learn to let go of your ego and fail fast. And also just make that judgment call earlier. Because as much as you need to give people the opportunity to show you what they can do, I also think by five to six months you generally have a pretty good read on someone.
I think it's better to make that decision for everybody rather than have things simmer away in a way that maybe isn't what you envisaged. I think one last bit of advice, and I have learned this very much the hard way, all these bits of advice I've learned the hard way is clear is kind, I think that's a famous Brene Brown concept. Clear is kind, make sure that you work a feedback culture into your workplace so that you can make it just part of the everyday conversation. They're not big scary conversations. They don't need to have performance management language. They're just a part of, I just wanted to touch base with you about this, what happened there? I just want you to help me understand what was happening to you. This is some feedback, maybe this is how you might approach this in the future.
They just don't need to be scary conversations. But I think in the early days of managing people, I feared those conversations I wouldn't have them. Something where there was a bit of, there was something that I felt that I should have given feedback at that moment, in a timely way. I didn't, and then it just grows and grows until it feels horrible to be having that conversation because you let things go. Making sure that feedback's just a part of the culture. That's good and bad. That is up towards management is the other way just to make it a part of the culture of what you do.
I could not agree more with that. I feel like so many people don't ever do this until it's review time and then people get shocked or they get people to like write all of their reviews. There's not much feedback at all. And that person can't grow. Because even if they're not the right fit for your business, at least if you've given them feedback, they're like, I understand if I go into another job, this is where I could rectify things. Or this is where I could upskill or use my initiative to come up with stuff. But they won't know if you never tell them about that. I'm laughing because I'm thinking, do you give a lot of reviews to this next person? That is your husband Chris. Chris has also left his job and works full-time in Sage and Clare. What was that like? I know you guys, you've credited him a lot in terms of you even starting your business and, and you guys travelling together to India and everything. But what has it been like he came into the business and also how do you separate your work and your life because it's so intertwined? Is it weird to be his boss or for him to be your world?
He might disagree with you there about who's the boss. Chris has always been a business partner, but a very silent partner typically and had his career. That was his focus. I managed to slot along with Sage and Clare and he was there when I needed him for any advice or perhaps I wanted to take a risk on something and he was there to talk it out. But yes, he has joined the business, he's coming up to almost three years in the business and that was a big decision for us. I think I realized that I remember looking at the business and thinking, we need someone with all of these skill sets and knowledge. And I looked at Chris and I thought, well that's him.
I said to him, “Hey, do you want to join the business because I'm hiring you?” It can either be you or it can be someone else, but I would love you to join if you are excited by that prospect. He started and I think initially it took everyone a little bit of time to adjust I think when you didn't have that role in place to begin with. For anyone starting a business in a role that's freshly created, it takes a bit of time to find your place within the business where your responsibilities stop and where other people start. I think there was a little bit of that. We've had some interesting conversations in terms of, Chris coming from a property development industry, an extremely different culture to what exists here at Sage and Clare.
Probably a quite conventional culture, a very male dominated industry and quite corporate I would say. He's stepped into this and it's just been a little bit of a bit, probably a little bit of whiplash for him of like, hang on, where am I? What is this place? We've certainly had conversations in terms of development for him around how might he have approached something in the past in his previous workplace versus how would you approach something here. Because I think we are certainly a team that is the first to admit that we don't know something we're a team committed to learning that is very much the culture here. Whereas I think in the industry that he's come from, if you don't know something that's a sign of weakness. We certainly have had some conversations around that and I think that's been a learning curve for him.
I love having him on the team. I don't think it necessarily would've worked in the early days because I was highly defensive about things. I think I was very attached to the business and how it ran and what happened and I don't think I could have handled having him in it. But now I'm like arms wide open, I can't do this alone. I need you. I need someone with the skillset that you have. I'm interested to hear what you think. I want you to help guide this business. I don't have all of the skills for that. I'm excited that he's a part of it. I think a challenge is how do we not just talk about business all the time. Chris wants to talk about the business all the time. We're over 10 years old now.
I've been in it longer than he has and I've been through the trenches of working around the clock, talking about the business, around the clock, burning out pretty big time, and having to reestablish some boundaries around my time versus my work time. I'm very much like if you want to talk about work, then schedule something in my diary during work hours. Whereas he is like, do I have to do that? Can you chat with me at 9:30 at night? Now that the kids are in bed? But we don't always see eye to eye in that regard, but I appreciate his passion and excitement for it. That's where it comes from. I'm very passionate and excited about the business too, but I have had to create some boundaries around myself because otherwise I just find that I just never switch off.
And you two have done an incredible job because the business has done well. I mean it's continued to do well over the 10 years, but in particular the last few years as well. Power to power couple running it. It's funny as well because like your dad used to be at it, your sister's in it. Sorry, I'm putting you on the spot. Do you feel like in family functions you also have to be like, Hey, let's not talk about it? Or do you feel like your sister's been in it so long she doesn't want to talk about it necessarily when you are hanging out as a family?
I think we used to talk about it a lot more and it used to become the hot topic of conversation in any family function or at the dinner table. My sister used to live with us with her husband and daughter, so you can imagine you are just entrenched in this life where you work together, you live together. It can be hard to like draw those lines of separation. But I think I've gotten better at that. I think we've probably all gotten better at that to some extent, and life has changed a lot since then. I mean I've got three kids, my sister has two kids there's more going on. Also for our families, we don't just want our kids growing up just only hearing about business. There's so much more to life. There are so many things going on in life. I think there's just naturally been that evolution.
You guys do so much outside of business and you go skiing and jet skiing and all the fun things, but you're like an adventurous family as well and travel and all the things. One of the things I don't feel like you talk about that much, but you are amazing at, and you're very humble through a lot of the things that you talk about your business. But one of them is that you completely like built the back end of Sage and Clare and you are so knowledgeable about e-commerce and Shopify and all of the things. You've come in even to group coaching and people have always been blown away at how much you know about this stuff. And you have this amazing loyalty program. You recently launched a tool to help people build their bid beds online with all the linen.
What advice would you have for people who think the tech side is too hard? Because like you said at the start, or you're talking about your sister's background, you didn't have this e-commerce tech background, you studied law. A lot of people are like, I'd like to do that, I'd like to have more going on in my e-commerce, or I'd like to create a loyalty program. It's just too hard. How did you build all of that? And when did you know it was time to outsource that? Sorry, I'm asking so many questions with loyalty programs in particular, how long did it take between we should have a loyalty program and setting up the dynamics of that?
You say that I'm amazing at this stuff. To be honest, I feel like I was amazing at this stuff. I do feel like I've hired in the last few years people who are amazing and have taken on a lot of this and I've probably, there's probably a limit to my knowledge base because I haven't continued to upskill in this area and the landscape changes a lot. But I will say that for the first six or seven years I had an extremely solid understanding of our website. It's not that I don't know, but some things have become a bit more complex. But I think when I started Sage and Clare, Shopify was very new. We used Shopify, which was quite new. There wasn't the level of tutorials that are available now.
There wasn't a level of support. It wasn't like I knew anyone that was even using it. I also was forced in some ways to learn and immerse myself in this part of the business because I didn't have any money to put into a website. I couldn't pay anyone and I didn't want to because I thought, well is this even a business? Is this even a brand? Is this going to go anywhere and am I going to spend 15 grand on a website that is essentially worthless if this business doesn't go anywhere? I wanted to spend that money in places that I could see us being able to reinvest or into inventory or whatever it was. I just immersed myself in trying to understand this. I'm like an absolute dog with a bone with things.
I will not sleep. I will commit day and night to figuring something out until I've got it. That was what I did with Shopify built the website and got to understand the backend and understand all the apps and the functionality, the navigation. There's been many iterations of that over the journey. There's been theme updates, there's been a lot of like e-com reports that have come out and you go, we don't do this particularly well so we need to change this or we need to look at this. Or different Shopify apps offer functionality that you could never do before. You've got to continue to want to like to improve your knowledge base and it's constantly developing. It's never the same. Year and year out there are developments think it's a fantastic foundation for anyone to start and I think you will never regret understanding that and knowing that.
It's awesome when you go into hiring people as well because you can track a conversation. You can understand to some extent, even if you don't know everything intricacy, I think even my knowledge base enables me to pretty fully understand what my team's talking to me about when there's an issue or when they want to do something. We've developed programs, as you said, we've got the bed builder, so the bed builder, that's an example where that went very much beyond my skillset or the skillset of people in the team. We do have a web developer that we outsource work to where we want something that isn't just an out of the box product, it's something that we want created. Our bed builder is unique, no one else does it like we've done it.
We wanted to make sure that we had the right person to outsource that work too, that was going to be able to do that. Then our internal team managed that process and did aspects of the work that they could do. Very proud of what we've done there. I think with the loyalty program, that is an app that's already in existence and then there was a fair bit of work involved in building that out in the way that we wanted to and, but honestly that that program, I'm embarrassed, I think it was like an 18 month program to roll out because I'm known as a tornado person at work, so I'm a bit like, “Hey, let's do a loyalty program. Hopefully, we'll get that done in a couple of months and that'll be amazing.”
I'm not overly good sometimes at understanding the scope of work. When we started to dig into that, there was a huge scope. It involved pretty much updating every single email flow. All of our comms developing their brands. I guess it's like a sub-brand within a brand. If you look at any loyalty program, I think the good ones have their branding and look and feel. It's somewhat distinct if you are speaking with loyalty members versus non royalty members. We also had to look at the financial side of it. What could we offer? What was sustainable to us as a business? What was too much, what was not enough? What was going to make it a great loyalty program for people that was, there was enough there for them to want to join? How do we convert our existing customers into a loyalty program? What is the market doing? What analysis can we look at in terms of what's out there? There is so much scoping to do, it's huge. It became very much a more complex task and I think it took that amount of time because you are also asking the team to develop this on top of a very busy day today schedule.
These projects are pretty meaty and I think the more you scope it out, the more you begin to realize that. And you've got to push this project along while everyone's got a ton of other things and a lot of quiet, timely, urgent tasks that they need to do versus a loyalty program which doesn't necessarily need to be done by X amount of time. It took time. It's not perfect and we're still learning from it and still understanding how to optimize it and how to get the most out of it as well.
Honestly, I'm in quite a few and I've been involved in a lot of loyalty programs, even in my past employed roles. I feel like yours is one of the best that I've seen.
Thank you.
The triggers and the emails. I like your stuff. Every time I get something I'm like, I better go use money up. But like it's I think it's a good one. I think your emails and everything, it's thought out. One of the things I wanted to discuss is that there are so many businesses shutting, like even in the last few months, there have been so many here in Australia and the homeware lifestyle space as well, and going into voluntary administration or liquidation or and I feel like you're quite humble and then you peel away a layer and you're like, you've got so much knowledge about things and you have to have that knowledge. You wouldn't have built the business you have without having that knowledge, but you have this understanding of your numbers and your strong business model, and you've got stockers and then you've got direct and everything else.
When you hear, this business has gone under, or this business has collapsed, or this has gone into involuntary administration, how do you work through any fears or are there fears that come up? Or do you feel like, Nope, I have it all down? That definitely would never happen to us. I'm sure it wouldn't, but like, I feel like even just hearing that sometimes I know some of my clients will get a bit freaked out, like, but they're such a big brand. How do you work through those fears? Does that make sense as a question?
No, it does make sense. It's an interesting question because it can be tricky sometimes not to buy into all of that. You don't need to look very far. You just need to tune into the news or listen to the radio or chat with a friend who's got a business to see a whole lot of evidence of an economy that's struggling, of businesses that are struggling, of businesses that are being forced to close. That can be scary sometimes. I'm not so arrogant to think that that would never impact us. It's always a risk in business and I don't think often people understand how little needs to happen for many businesses for that to be the result. I think sometimes everyone has this view that these businesses are just, just so cashed up and too big to fail as they say.
It's not that way. I'm quite an empath, I look at these and I just feel that sense of grief in a way. I feel like if that happened to my own business, it would be horrible. I feel like I can relate to that sense of loss and that grief that probably a lot of these business owners go through. But I also think that on the flip side, not all businesses are designed to necessarily be around forever. We're seeing a changing market all the time. I think we're seeing the mainstream change a lot. I think we're seeing the end of an era in terms of, I believe in terms of true customer service and I think as well, there are shops and retailers and then there are brands. If there's no brand there, then why would somebody necessarily shop with that person over another retailer? Because there isn't that brand loyalty. There's none of that. I think there are a lot of changes in the market that mean that where a business may have had its heyday, like say, Godfreys, that's recently gone into administration.
Because where would you go to buy a vacuum? You'd probably go to Godfreys, you would talk to the salesperson, and you would feel that you need to get their sales pitch. what are the pros and cons of all these vacuums? But where do you go for a vacuum? You don't do that.
No. I used to look after the vacuums at Amazon UK. I know quite a lot about vacuums, but you would probably just look online.
You would look online, you would probably look at customer reviews. You would shop around for the best price. You would buy that vacuum. The other thing is you may have gone down to Godfreys and I'm not saying anything against Godfreys, but you may have gone down there and maybe didn't get the best customer service because I feel like customer service is lacking in a lot of retailers that I go into bricks and mortar, retailers. It's just changing a lot. I have to remind myself of that because you can get caught up in that cycle. The other thing that I just have to do all the time is just look at my own business. What are the analytics telling me in my own business?
Where are we doing well? Where are we not doing well? How can we improve? How can we respond? There is not a day that goes by that we take, take our customers for granted. We're always trying to improve and improve. I don't think we'll ever stop trying to improve. But also the analytics tell me that Sage and Clare are growing and we are continuing to grow. I could get caught up in the doom and gloom of what's happening for other businesses or I can just have a look at my numbers and our analytics and say, we're doing okay. We're growing and I feel comfortable with where we're at. I also look at our trajectory and I look at our year on year figures and I feel as though we still have a market there that is loyal to us loves what we do, and that we continue to acquire more customers year after year. There is still a huge section of the market that doesn't know about us, which is so exciting. I love it when I meet someone and I'm like, “I have a homewares business.” And they say, “Which one?” And I say, “Sage and Clare” and they're like, “I've never heard of that.” I'm like, brilliant.
I will show you.
I love that We are so far from exhausting the market, so there's just always capacity for growth. And some businesses thrive in any economy. You have to remember that as well. There are as many businesses that are out there potentially struggling. There are probably many businesses that are just going from strength to strength and thriving.
Yes. I love when you said about customer service, like something that you guys are good at, and I know I'm singing all your praises, but like genuinely is with your customer service. When people are listening, they're probably thinking directly to the customer, but you're so customer service focused for your stockists as well. I feel like it's something that a lot of brands that give their that that rely on shops to sell their stuff, don't have a stocker strategy. They don't know how we talk to these people who are selling our product in their shops. You guys do so much in that. I know you had an event last August and I was talking to some of your stockers at that event and they were like, they're just amazing. They do so much more than most other brands for us. I think that's also something people don't tend to always remember. There are different audience groups and different customer service for each of those groups.
They're completely different. I think as well, often with the cycles of the market, you might have a strong retail period and then that might reverse and you might need to rely more on your stock-ish market because they're flourishing and thriving. I also think, that even in the course of our having a business that has gone in cycles and waves. I do love the fact that we've got both of those channels and look, there are so many things we've done wrong. There are so many things that I've identified as not being up to standard and I've known it, but the fix that needs to happen has maybe been a one or two-year strategy to come to fix that. I think there's always a lot of commitment to wanting to improve, even if that takes us time. It's something that we're very receptive to hearing the feedback too, from both our retail and wholesale customers.
Sorry, I'm aware of the time as well and you're so busy. One of the things I wanted to ask is that you've grown this loyal consistent social media presence even when a lot of brands have, it's been going down. Why do you think it does so well on social media? And also how do you plan out the content? Because you used to do the content and it was very much your name, your face, your voice, and you've got a marketing team now. Are you still as involved? How do you think it's just done so well? There's a lot of questions. I seem to stack questions.
No, I love that. I love your stacking of questions. I can't deny the fact that Sage and Clare started it at a period where I think we just rode a natural wave with social media and we're very, very fortunate to have started in that time. I think Instagram has certainly had its heyday during those first 5, 6, 7 years and we've been able to just capitalize on that. We've also been very consistent with how we've approached that because, don't get me wrong, I felt like I was talking to nobody at the start. Like I might only have three likes on a post. Feeling that motivation to continue to do that day in and day out is pretty hard sometimes at the start. That's been good.
We do have a marketing team now. They're unbelievable at what they do. They're so talented. I think my involvement has certainly dropped back because, to be honest, they're just teaching me things. Like I'm not teaching them anything. They have such a firm grasp of social media, what's working, what's not working, how it's changed. I'm still trying to, I don't even understand TikTok. I feel like I'm like my parents must feel in this day and age. I feel like I'm like that but with social media. There's still a lot of training that's gone into brand voice, what we would say, what we wouldn't say, we are just trying to be a friend and that's the way that we communicate.
There's a lot around some things that might look quite ad hoc or not that they've been thought through, but they have, there's a lot of intention behind what we post about and what we do and the language that we use versus the language that we don't use. And that takes quite a lot of training to make sure that there's consistency across the team. And I guess I'm still here every day, so there are those posts that are more personal and that is true. That's very much true to my life that is little personal snippets of my life. But I think the account, the accounts that we have become more about the brand and I'm just like a little part of it, but there's a lot that goes into understanding the content pillars of the brand. That is how we do it now. They're amazing at what they do.
Amazing. They are good. And you've just talked about them having a lot of knowledge about the brand and you've helped a lot with nurturing your staff to that point. Who has helped you? Have you had business mentorship, have you had advisors, obviously you've got Chris as well, and him bringing all his skillset. Has anyone in particular helped you or likewise any like books or tools or anything?
I don't have any formal mentors in place or formal advisors in place. I haven't ever had that. I think there are a lot of amazing perspectives and opinions out there and I value a lot of people's perspectives. I think sometimes it's as much about knowing what advice is something that connects with you and your business versus like, what's advice that might be working for another business, but would just be so out of touch for your business. I've also had my fair share of that where people are like, you don't do business like this. This is how you do business. I'm like, that's great that that works for you. And maybe that would work for this business if this business had begun in a very different way. It continued in a very different way.
But it has its own, it's got its personality now. It's its own thing. That's at odds with what we do. But I think in terms of mentorship, I have found my people, whether that be an IP lawyer that we use regularly or Erin, our general manager, our HR consultant or our amazing accountant. It's, I think we have a whole lot of people that grateful for how much they bring to what we do and how much guidance they provide in their area. I think there's probably more of that than like an overall, this is the overall broad strategy. I would love to find someone at some stage who's maybe done a business like this and can help mentor me, but I haven't had that to date.
I think that team's so important. What about books or tools or anything that's helped with your mindset or any like overcoming challenges or anything like that?
A pivotal book for me was Profit First. I'm sure so many people say that on here. That is a wonderful book. I think it can be hard to figure out how to even carve out enough money to pay yourself or to like, But somehow you've always got the money to make sure everyone else is looked after. That is a wonderful book in terms of starting to change your mindset or your strategy around building up something for yourself in a business. Which is important. You can't sustain it if you don't get to that point. I think another one, what I was thinking about the other day was, there's a book, I think it's called Shoe Dog.
I remember reading that and loving that because I don't feel like I've ever like approached this business from this very business-minded perspective. I don't feel like I didn't sit down and write this very amazing business plan and I loved reading that book because I read it at a different level, but I could relate in some ways and it made me feel a little bit more validated in the way that I've gone about my business and brand because I haven't always conventionally done things, I guess. I love that book. I thought that was wonderful. And the part that I've probably had to work on the most and develop and the muscle that I do the most amount of work on is my mindset. I do have a coach, I see her once a week on Zoom.
She's not just a business coach, she's a coach for all aspects of my life because I think it's not as if my personal life doesn't impact my business and vice versa. That has been amazing. I feel like, could I operate without her? I could, but would I do it as well? No, I wouldn't. Would my mindset be as healthy and strong? No, it wouldn't. That has been something that I invest a lot of time and money into, to be honest, to ensure that I can show up to work the best I can be. I'm not necessarily saying that's kicking goals every day because that's unrealistic. But I do try and deal with things as they come up and I make sure that I schedule those calls in and that's a weekly thing. And much like a car that needs servicing, I feel like I go in for my regular service and come out running better.
So good. What advice would you give to anyone who's listening to this, who's looking to basically maybe get into handmade products or artisanal goods or something else based on your experiences? What advice would you give to someone who's listening?
Firstly, I'm like, are you sure? Are you sure you want to do this? No, no, no. I love what I do. It's certainly, it's been hard. I'm not going to lie about that. It's been, it's been hard and I think you have to be pretty determined and resilient to manage what's involved in that. But it's also been very rewarding. I think having some realistic expectations is important. I do think people's perception of a business like this or my life is that I just go from glamorous photo shoots to sitting in a design room with like beautiful swatches and imagery and just like sitting there choosing out amazing colour palettes. And yes, I have an element of that in my job, but the reality is that it's a lot about team building, it's a lot about culture, training, development systems, and processes.
It's a lot about the operations of the business and how it runs. I would say to anyone wanting to start something like this, like don't discount the importance of that. I remember when we were just in the worst imaginable place where with our warehousing and dispatch, we were just struggling. We were in a small warehouse. We couldn't fit any more people into dispatch orders. We were just constantly chasing our tail, constantly letting customers down. I was just I knew what had to happen, but it was a very long project to work on to make that happen. That I remember getting this warehouse consultant out who was just like, I could just listen to him all day about warehouses. He said to me people spend so much time thinking about the design of a product and they'll put all their energy into the design of a product how it will look aesthetically and whether is it right.
They just forget about the other side of it, which is, how do you supply that to the market? Can you do that? What good is it if you've got a beautiful product but you've just product, you just are terrible at getting it out to market? That was a big turning point for me in terms of, I'm personally very invested in the design of our products and how they look and they feel and function and those things. But how do I also work on aspects of the business that are more operational or get people in that can help me do that? Because I'll be honest, that's not my strength.
Also, it's interesting that you say that, because people also dream of, we'll have so many orders. But how are you going to fulfil them? Because it can seem like you're doing so sick doing so well, you've got so much.
It's very stressful. It's stressful not getting orders and it's stressful getting way too many orders. it's area it's a hard thing to manage. But I definitely would say like, don't forget those things. Because of what I did, I've learned that through many mistakes and I've probably upset a lot of customers along the way and I'm sorry for that. And identifying, by the time we got to identifying the problem, we were two years away from meaningfully being able to fix that.
Thank you for being so honest and vulnerable and real and everything else. What are you most proud of so far in your business journey, which is more than 10 years old? Amazing. What are you most proud of?
Am I allowed two things?
Yes, of course.
I'm proud of our products. I'm proud of what we create. I look like I say to the team at every range launch, we have just created this world from scratch. Let’s say our recent collection, Paloma, we've just created an entire world. It's this whole vision that comes to life that didn't exist before. It didn't, that wasn't in the world before. I feel like our contribution to just creating and wanting to create beautiful products that are there to last and stand the test of time and have had craftsmanship to create them, I'm proud of that. I'm so proud of what we do and I'm proud that it's just got its own unique brand identity. It's somehow I just feel like people look at it and they go, that's Sage and Clare.
I'm proud of what we do. And the other thing that I'm proud of is the culture. I have not always got that right, but as I talk to you today, I'm so proud of the culture that we have. It is unique. It is such a delight to come in every day. I think for me, it wouldn't be enough just to create a business that supports my family and make some money along the way. If my team were miserable, I would hate that. When I'm able to look around and look at the team as a whole and go, these are good people. They're engaged, they're committed. They support one another. They just have fun with their life at work. That makes me, proud. I'm happy with that. I'm not proud from the perspective of I've created that everyone is involved in creating that. Everyone is a gatekeeper for that. I think all I've done is just set up some of the foundations to make that possible.
Such a lovely spot to end on. You should feel so proud of those things and all of the things that you've created and built in this business. If people are listening to this and they're thinking, I need to connect with her, or what's next for Sage and Clare, what is next? How can people best connect with you?
Maybe other businesses have these very clear five year goals. I think for us it's a lot about just continuing to develop our people and our products. I've always had lots of ideas for additional products that I'd like to add to the range. I'm sure there'll be more of that. I think we're also putting greater visibility and focus on our social and corporate responsibility. That's becoming a lot more work in terms of, the focus of the team. We're also looking at expanding into overseas markets, which is exciting as well. There's a lot to learn there too. We'll see what happens there. In terms of people wanting to connect with me, I'm on email, at phoebe@sageandclaire.com. You can always connect on socials as well, @SageandClare on Instagram. They're the best ways. We also have a showroom in Bayswater in Victoria. If you want to pop in, you're very welcome.
Amazing. We have a lot of people who listen from overseas, from outside of Australia. And I know you've sold into the us. Can people buy this? Can people buy Sage and Clare outside of Australia?
Absolutely. Yep. We ship worldwide and we are fulfilling orders all over the world, which is so exciting. I love that when we get an order from some obscure place and I'm always thinking, how on earth did they find out about Sage and Clare? Yes, it is available worldwide.
Amazing. Thank you so much for coming on again, and thank you for being the 400th episode. And also just thank you for being you. Because you're such a beautiful soul and I'm so lucky to have you in my life and also be able to share some of your amazing wisdom with my audience.
Thank you so much for having me. The same goes for you. I feel very grateful for the friendship that we have. And it's funny when you look at the last time we spoke and we'd just got to know each other and we were in those very early days of building a friendship to now I'm like so grateful for you and your wisdom as well. I think what you do is incredible. I've seen you speak at many functions and I've read your books and I listen to your podcast and I'm just, the work that you do is incredible and I just wish I knew about you sooner.
Thank you so much. Bye.
Bye. Thank you.
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I could talk to Phoebe for hours and honestly, we do. I just love that she was so willing to come on. I know she is incredibly busy and gives so much time wisdom and insight into the background of Sage and Clare how she's built it how she continues to build it, and the incredible team that she has alongside her. I would love to know what you took away from this. As usual, I'm going to highlight two things. Also, if you are not familiar somehow with Sage and Clare, you can find all the information and go and have a bit of a shop over at sageandclaire.com. You can also follow along with what they're up to and see everything that's happening @SageandClare on Instagram.
That's the same for the website, SageandClare.com. The two things that stood out for me, the first was Phoebe is incredibly humble. When she was just talking about being so real that she had to learn to take a step back and to bring in other people and to learn from those people and to acknowledge that she had got the business to where it could be, but that she now needed to hire other people. I feel like that is a huge moment and a huge milestone for a lot of business owners when they realize I can't do this all and I can't continue. Also, it's not for the benefit of the business if I try to keep doing every single thing. I loved that she talked about that because I just think that's such a huge thing for people to go through and experience.
It's great to hear that from somebody else who's now grown the business to more than 50 staff. The other thing that I loved that Phoebe talked about was this culture of learning that she has created, and she has an incredible team as well that has helped to nurture and create a space where people feel safe to say, I don't know how to do that, but let's learn together. I feel like this is such a crucial thing that is missing from a lot of places. I know that I have worked in workplaces and even consulted with companies where there was not that level of freedom or safety for people to be able to speak up and say, I don't know the answer and I'm in this role, but I'm going to learn and maybe we could learn together. How else can I upskill, or how can I get this knowledge and who else in the business might be able to help me?
I feel like when people feel that level of safe within a business, it's only ever a good thing. Whereas I've worked in lots of places where you were not ever going to show that you don't know something, which leads to a lot of people just muddling about and not knowing what they're doing and a lot of stress, a lot of stress and overwhelm. I love that she talked about that and also talked about the idea that even if the business was doing so well and supporting her family and being financially successful, it wouldn't mean anything if her staff didn't want to come to work and weren't happy in their roles. I love that she focuses so much on that because we all spend a lot of our time in a role, in a job, whether we are running a business, whether we are working for somebody else, we spend a huge amount of our time.
I recently had to look it up and calculate it for my second book, and it's about 115,000 hours that the average person spends working in, say, a country like Australia. And that is a huge amount of time to be somewhere that you don't feel psychologically safe or you don't feel welcome or you don't feel that you can express yourself and learn and grow as a person. I love that everything about Sage and Clare and what they're trying to create in that business and are creating successfully is a place where people can learn and grow and experience new things and educate and upskill. I think that is just as important as so many other things that we look at when we look at business success metrics. I mean there was so much more that I could talk about.
I love that Phoebe is just so humble that she's so hardworking that in her own words, she's a dog with a bone when she wants to get something, she will work hard to be able to understand that. I think that is a huge part of the success that she's had as a brand owner. If you want to check out Sage and Clare, as I said before, you can find so many of their amazing beautiful things at sageandclaire.com. You can also check out the bed builder and sign up for their loyalty club which she talked about in today's chat. You can also follow them on a whole bunch of socials on Instagram. It's @SageandClare. You can also find them on TikTok under the same account @SageandClare.
I just want to again say a massive thank you to Phoebe. She is an incredible friend, an incredibly kind and considerate person, somebody I'm very lucky to have in my life. I'm so thankful that she rearranged things because this interview is rearranged multiple times on my Fault, my problem. And still, she showed up and was there and is just such a great person to have in your life. I'm so thrilled to be able to bring her back onto the podcast. Thank you, Phoebe, for coming on, and thank you for reading and if you found this useful, I would love it so much if you might hit subscribe or share this with a friend, especially somebody in the business who probably could very much do with this dose of injection and inspiration that Phoebe gave in today's podcast. Thank you so much for reading. I'll see you next time. Bye.
