Episode 436: Laura Thompson (Gunditjmara) and Sarah Sheridan of Clothing The Gaps
In this episode, Fiona chats with Laura Thompson (Gunditjmara) and Sarah Sheridan of Clothing The Gaps about aligning business with personal values and making impactful decisions. They share their inspiring journey of creating a values-driven brand that supports First Nations people in Australia. Tune in!
You'll Learn How To:
Transition from health promotion to creating a social enterprise
The Free the Flag campaign and its significance
Importance of creating quality educational content
Strategies for small businesses to influence social change
Balancing business operations with social justice goals
Elevating other causes and sharing platforms
Cultivating a supportive and purpose-driven team culture
Staying true to the vision amidst challenges
Importance of aligning business with personal values
Making impactful decisions and changing course when necessary
Building a community-focused brand
Marketing strategies involving community engagement and visibility
Challenges and rewards of running a social enterprise
Importance of strong legal foundations in partnerships
Strategies for maintaining motivation and creativity in business
Benefits of transparency, trust, and strong communication in partnerships
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Everybody has a role to play in change and not playing a role in change is still in change. It can be easy to sit in the overwhelm of, it's just that it's all too big. It's a big, messy, tricky problem and I am trying to figure out what to do about it, whether that's the environment or social justice or the conflicts that we're seeing happening around the world at the moment. But I think if we all do those little things every day, and whether that's if it's the environment piece, thinking about how you're posting, if you're an econ brand, how you're posting your orders online, what paper are you printing on, who are you working with? We'll contribute to this huge web of economics and we've all got levers that we can pull and I think don't be put off by how big or small your lever might be. It's still a lever in the system and we should all be using our levers for social change. And it's that agency bid in that if every single person was doing these things that would, it would add up and it does add up.
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Welcome to episode 436 of the My Daily Business podcast. Today is a very special interview episode because the people I'm interviewing were also profiled and agreed to be in my new book, Business to Brand, moving from transaction to transformation. They were number one out of all the brands in the world that I wanted to profile and that is because they have one of the most influential impactful, inspiring, and downright just incredible brands, both through a perspective of what they offer and how they run their brand, but also the incredible ability to change behaviour, change perception, change the way that people think about fashion, but also think about political issues in Australia.
The world as so many brands around the world will look at what they're doing and be able to see a blueprint for what is possible. Before we get stuck into that, I want to of course acknowledge where I'm coming from and acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians of these beautiful lands on which I get to record this podcast, where I wrote most of my book and where I get to meet such incredible small business owners. That is where I am the Wurrung and Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation and I pay my respects to their elders past and present and acknowledge that sovereignty has never been ceded. Let's get into today's special interview episode.
As I said in the intro, I set out to write this book Business to Brand, moving from transaction to transformation to look at how business owners can create brands that have meaning, have a purpose, and have an impact. And when I looked at the brands that I wanted to profile alongside my theory and coaching within the book, this brand was number one on my list. I have to say it took some time because when I initially asked them, they said yes, then they had lots on. Then we went back and forth and as you'll hear in this episode, I think I mentioned it, I feel like I harassed one founder to be in the book. I was like, you guys have such an incredible meaningful story and it needs to be out there and more people need to understand it, especially people outside of Australia for whom maybe they haven't come into contact with this brand yet, but who they'll be able to see has had such impact.
Also as a brand, as a standalone brand, the amount that they've been able to do with a relatively small team is out of this world. And it gives so much hope and inspiration to any business owner to realise you can change things. You can with your own little corner of the world start making massive change happen. Who am I talking to? I'm talking to the wonderful Laura Thompson (Gunditjmara) and Sarah Sheridan, the founders of Clothing The Gaps. Clothing The Gaps originally started as an aboriginal health promotion and community engagement company and it's now become one of the most impactful lifestyle and clothing brands to ever come out of Australia. Clothing The Gaps, sparks conversation, collaboration and community around the history, challenges and celebrations of First Nations people. And in turn all Australians. For anyone reading who is in Australia, you'll be well aware of the horrific history that we have with our First Nations people and how that history seeps into the present.
The brand name is a play on the government initiative Closing the Gap, which looks to close the gaps between non-indigenous and Indigenous Australians. You can learn a lot more about this at closingthegap.gov.au. You can also learn so much about all of this with the Education Hub from Clothing The Gaps, which is available at clothingthegaps.com.au. And then in the navigation, choose education. There is so much information and it's regularly updated and there's just, there's so much, there is no excuse not to know our history and not to know how we can make things better altogether. In this interview, we talk all about the brand, how they built it, what it set out to do, what the brand name was before it was clothing, the gaps, and also things like how they got into streetwear and fashion and then how do they work as a team.
There's two of them. Did they know exactly how each other would work? Did they sit down and come up with job roles and responsibilities? How have they grown the brand and what are they most proud of? As I said, Clothing The Gaps was my number one brand that I wanted to have in business to brand because of what they have been able to do. They have done, I believe, in my time living in this country more than pretty much any politician or party has been able to do, to open the gateways for conversations and to educate and highlight to more Australians the inequalities and the inequities as well for First Nations people in this country. If you are First Nations and you're reading this and anything in this triggers anything in you, please know there is help available at 13Yarn.
You can find them at 13 yarn on social media. You can also find them at 13yarn.org au. Can also call 13 92 76. There's also a bunch of resources at wellmob.org.au. Enough with my intro, I can't gush enough about how grateful I am for the time from Laura and Sarah coming onto the podcast, but also for being in the book. And I just hope you get so much out of this. I know that so many people will, they are changing lives with what started as a small business. Here is my interview with the wonderful founders of Clothing The Gaps, Laura Thompson (Gunditjmara) and Sarah Sheridan.
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Welcome to the podcast Laura and Sarah, I am so pumped about this. Laura will know I harassed and harassed her to do an interview ages ago. Sarah, I'm so excited to be meeting you for the first time and I'm so excited that you both lovingly agreed to come into the book as well. Welcome to the podcast.
Thank you.
Thanks. It's lovely to get to tune in and have a chat.
I'm excited. Part of the reason I'm excited and part of the reason you guys were number one on who I wanted to have in the book is that you have a brand that has genuinely changed, changed the world, changing conversations, and opening up things that politicians have not been able to do for decades in this country. For somebody who's reading and we have a big global audience and they don't know what Clothing The Gaps is, can you talk us through how you describe Clothing The Gaps? What is the business and also how do you two come together to create Clothing The Gaps?
Shady. I wish the readers could see Sarah and I are pointing at each other and going, you talk, you're in different spaces right now. The best way to describe Clothing The Gaps is that we've been able to unite non-indigenous people and First Nations people through fashion and a cause and it's what drives Sarah and I to do the work every day. Yes, we love fashion, but I think what we love more is creating a community of people and in business, we've been able to self-determine the work we do through the funds that we're able to generate through selling a tea that sparks conversations all over the world.
Amazing. How did you two meet and come into this? Were you always like, we are going to do something and change the world or were you just friends? Did you go to uni? How did you meet and come up with this idea?
It's a pretty funny story, Fiona, I was an annoying fourth-year uni student that he laws to take me on as placement for a very long time. And then I had the absolute pleasure and privilege of working under laws in the healthy lifestyle team at the Victorian Aboriginal Health Service in 2014. We did about three and a half, almost four years together at the health service and just had the most incredible time running some phenomenal programs and initiatives. We were ready for a new challenge and we decided to step out into business together. Our first business, most people who know Clothing The Gaps, not everybody realises that. There's a funny origin story where we with because both Laura and I are health promotion people by trade essentially. We had a health promotion business where we specialised in aboriginal community, and public health essentially, and we ran health and wellbeing programs right across metro and regional Victoria for years.
Wow. I am aware of that because of the background knowledge, but most people aren't. What is health promotion? Is that like saying don't smoke, it's bad for you?
Exactly that. But Laura and I were good at making it fun, Fiona. And then one of the things that was always consistent throughout all of our health and wellbeing programs was merch and what we would call now merch with a message as well. It was merch that United gave people a connection to an experience that they'd gone through together that you could only get if you'd done the hard yards of doing four out of six of the health and wellbeing programs. When we launched Spark Health, which was our first business together, we of course launched with a a merch range as well, but back then it was called Spark Merch, which is nowhere near as fun as Point in the Gap. We did upgrade the name eventually, but that's where it all started.
Wow. That takes me back to when I had my first son, he's almost 12, and I was part of this challenge called Insanity. I don't know if you've ever heard of Sean t he's a health guy in the US. I desperately wanted the T-shirt because you only got the T-shirt if you'd done the whole insanity workout, which was 45 minutes a day, six days a week. And then it progressed to an hour and a half a day and I wanted that T-shirt more than anything. I remember getting so upset that they didn't ship it from the US and I was like, no, because the other people in the community won't know that I've also done the work. I get that behaviour. When you have that behaviour of okay, you do this and you're incentivised because this is merch and you're part of a select community that do it do you have that idea that we are going to start a business and it will have to change behaviour as part of it. We're going to start this brand and we are going to change and challenge people's behaviour through whatever it was that you were going to start together. Or did that come organically?
That's a great question. When we decided that we were going to sell T-shirts because you could never buy the t-shirts that you earned by participating and it was a different T-shirt than what you earned in the program, the whole idea of selling that t-shirt, it was the first time Sarah and I started to open ourselves up to non-indigenous audiences was that it would be able to fund the work we do in Aboriginal communities in health promotion. We didn't realise the power of the tea, even though we had experience in health promotion probably when non-indigenous people wore their values and had those conversations in their circle of influence about what difference it could make for social change. We might touch on it later, but until we found ourselves spearheading the Free the Flag campaign and became quite evident then that the T-shirt with a message can drive political change as well as the community.
I feel like I've jumped ahead. Sorry. You had Spark T-shirts and you were like, Spark Health, is that what it's called? Spark Merch. I like that you changed the name, but then how did you go from Spark Merch to what people know today as Clothing The Gaps and a lot of people have the tops? I should have worn my tops and I've got the whole tracksuit your tracksuit shout out. Your tracksuit is so comfortable. I even did a whole story on this. They're so comfortable and warm, especially since we need them right now in Melbourne. How did it then become Clothing The Gaps from Spark Merch?
I think in between when Clothing The Gaps took off, it was at the same time that we were during the Covid Lockdowns. We couldn't run the health promotion initiatives that we wanted on the ground. We were looking to put our efforts into online sales just to survive. It was also at the same time as the murder of George Floyd and the rise of people recognised as Black Lives Matter in Australia. I guess a lot of people looking to buy T-shirts from us, so we grew out of that. Is there anything else you'd add to that, Sarah?
That's definitely where the brand became most recognisable I think. But within that, we also had the Free the Flag campaign that was all rolled up in there as well in that people started to understand a little bit more about the power of a t-shirt with a political slogan or a value statement on it to create those conversations. But I guess where the name change came from is, was a point where we were able to best articulate the purpose and the outcome. Clothing The Gaps is a play on the word closing, like the federal government initiative Closing the Gaps. And that in our very first campaign, it's like you will close the Gap. The play on words there.
But I think in terms of probably people understanding and better being able to articulate exactly what it was that the T-shirt did, that's where the name change became very helpful.
It also gave people, people understood that there was something that they could do that could help. The non-indigenous community, they were almost waiting for this opportunity like, please tell me what to do. I want to help support First Nations people in this country and this brand comes out of First Nations business, a First Nations-led social enterprise that says if I wear my values then I can help close the gap.
Yes. For anyone who's reading who's outside of Australia, can you just explain what Closing the Gap, the government, you're not working for the government, but what that initiative is because it's been such a huge part of your brand as well?
The high agreement on Closing the Gap has been around for 12, 14 or so years now. It's a commitment from the government to close the different indexes that non-Aboriginal people in Australia experience and Aboriginal and pro-people in Australia experience. There are some large discrepancies between the life expectancy for non-aboriginal persons in Australia and aboriginal persons in Australia. There's a whole bunch of change that needs to happen to see equity across those measures.
Thank you. We'll link to various places where you can learn more about that in the show notes as well as you guys have an incredible blog and an incredible education hub as part of Clothing The Gaps. With that, it's not like a lot to take on a lot to go, A lot of us have important things we want to be part of and things we want to champion, but not a lot of people make an entire business out of that. That's a lot of pressure as well to be like, we want to make an impact and make a change and change people's behaviour. And even though, Laura, you were saying a lot of non-indigenous people were almost waiting for an invitation for something that they could do. And putting a T-shirt on, it's dual at one stage it's easy to put a T-shirt on, we all need to be dressed to go out and not get arrested. But it's also you're putting a T-shirt on and it's got a message and you have to be open for those conversations. Did you feel a lot of pressure starting this or were you like, no, we believe in what we're doing and we know it will have a positive impact there isn't the pressure, there's just let's do it.
I think because we had received numerous cease and de using the Aboriginal flag copyright following the right processes we're already in the middle of a copyright legal dispute that we found ourselves leading the Free the Flag campaign. I guess we didn't second guess ourselves that we're going to continue to campaign. I think over a thousand people signed the petition, it was difficult I guess to stay financially afloat when we weren't funded to fundraise as such. But for every single free Flag t-shirt that we sold, it did resource us a little bit more to continue to campaign.
But I think we certainly didn't sit back in 2017, 2018 when we were late 2017, we were planning the kickoff of the business and be like, what's the, what's the problem statement in the world that we want to tackle and how are we going to do that? I know we'll use merch, we change the world. We just continued to make each decision with our values and with what we knew was missing. And then I think that continued to see closing the gaps grow and develop into what it is today. And it's probably not until we've been able to move through some large pieces of history in the way that clothing has been able to play a role in social change in that, that we've been able to assist in like the Free the Flag campaign and when we look at the referendum of last year as well and I've been able to see in those moments how incredible it has been to be able to address an army of people who are ready to have conversations that want to see the social change that is done with putting up with the status quo that we'll talk to that annoying uncle about those things at Christmas now. The social shift has been growing for a little while and I think clothing enables us to see the social shift just that bit more clearly as well.
Seth and I never, ever imagined, I think in both of our futures talked to you, Sarah, that we would be running a streetwear label or a brand and I was wearing skirts and stockings and tights every other day running health and wellbeing programs. Like, we wouldn't be caught dead in it. It's certainly not what we expected, but I would say that it's more than just a T-shirt. And we did a lot of work early on about performative allyship and how it's much more than wearing a t-shirt. You touched on it earlier, Fiona is an education hub and that's something we invest in as much as the design of a great t-shirt because it needs to look cool to sell and not just to sell. We want people to wear it every day.
We want them to be everyone's favourite track we want to create quality pieces, we want people to be equipped with the knowledge to go out and have those conversations. At the same time, it's just a hard balancing act because we have to be across what the Aboriginal community cares about, and what they're campaigning for. We have to be elevating the right voices. We have to understand the issue and we need to create the right tea, we need to share. There's just a whole lot more that goes into the actual creation of a T-shirt.
Yes. With that as well, if someone's reading this and thinking, I get how they've done it, but I have this little business and how can it change any behaviour, whether that behaviour is I was talking to somebody this morning who's in pre-loved clothes and I have a couple of clients that I've worked with that and that's massive. I grew up going to op shops, I'm the biggest op shopper, but I also love op shops and I'm teaching my 11-year-old constantly this is reusing it because where's it going to go? It's going to go to landfill and then look at these mount literal mountains that are being created. What advice would you have for somebody who's like, I don't know how I could change behaviour with my brand or I don't think I'm big enough?
Everybody has a role to play in change and not playing a role in change is still in change. It can be easy to sit in the overwhelm of, it's just that it's all too big. It's a big, messy, tricky problem and I am trying to figure out what to do about it, whether that's the environment or social justice or the conflicts that we're seeing happening around the world at the moment. But I think if we all do those little things every day, and whether that's if it's the environment piece, thinking about how you're posting, if you're an econ brand, how you're posting your orders online, what paper are you printing on, who are you working with? We'll contribute to this huge web of economics and we've all got levers that we can pull and I think don't be put off by how big or small your lever might be. It's still a lever in the system and we should all be using our levers for social change. And it's that agency bid in that if every single person was doing these things that would, it would add up and it does add up.
We've been able to see that too. We've been able to see, as Laura said before, a hundred 50,000 people sign a petition and email their MPs. When it goes beyond empowering people to go beyond just doing the thing that you are asking them to do as well, that ripple effect of people being able to influence their social circles as well is, is incredible. Businesses have got the same opportunity as well. And it is such an incredible opportunity. I just encourage people to see it for the opportunity that it is rather than it feeling like a burden.
I just touching what says was talking about, it's those little decisions that we make every day, whether it's making sure that you choose a recycled paper, it might cost a little bit more, but you're also having that conversation with your customer that you are putting country first and you don't have to look very far to see a whole lot of other companies who aren't putting country first. That's one difference all businesses can have and we need to talk more about it because the more that our consumers expect that we are at the minimum being able to recycle our packaging, that's the minimum. But so many people don't do that. We all have a lot of control over the difference that we make.
In the book that you guys are in, thank you for being part of it. I dedicated it to my dad and my dad used to always say to us, the world is full of good people just trying to do good things. Most people are genuinely trying to change, but I think with small business sometimes we forget that what we can try and do in our personal life can also be applied to business. I think in Australia, small businesses employ more than 50% of the workforce. If you think about whatever culture you're creating in your team and the things that you're doing that can have a flow-on effect on those people going home and choosing a different plastic or choosing a different thing.
Just on that and quickly what people can do. On Gen 26 Australia Day or Invasion Day in businesses, what are you doing on that day or what are you not doing is a great example of what sets the tone and culture for your organisations and how First Nations people will see you in the world.
Yes. And I love that you brought that up. We have a marketing course that we do and we have people from all over the world do it and at the end of it you get a marketing plan template and it has an area for key dates and we always have Diwali, Hanukkah, Eid, Christmas, Easter, mother's Day, father's Day. And then we have 26th of January and we've had a couple of people from overseas and they've said, why do you have 26? And I'm like, because it's an important day in Australia and for businesses just even that small thing of like, it's there, it's marked, so think about what you're doing. And I think even that small thing from us, I mean not, I'm not trying to say look at our family grant, but as in everyone can do small things that add up over time.
With the free flag, you talked about 150,000 people on that petition. You also have a lot more followers on social media than a lot of big politicians around the country. Clothing The Gaps has done so much more to elicit conversation on equality and access for First Nations people pretty much more than anything else. I'm an immigrant to this country, but I've been here for 40 years, pretty much more than anything I've ever seen in the 40 years living here. Can you talk us through how you've been able to cultivate this community and this supportive brand with and for and alongside First Nations people as well as equally being such an approachable and adored brand, but allies and non-indigenous non-First Nations people who wouldn't even necessarily have put themselves in any like activist or social change makers group.
I don't know how we did it.
I think one of the interesting things about Clothing The Gaps as a brand is that Laura and I are co-founders, I'm a non-indigenous person and Laura's an incredible woman. I think one of the great things about the partnership is that we both have our ears in very different worlds of what's going on what the questions are and what those conversations are. I think the opportunity in that has been to be able to share resources and campaigns and blog posts and content that has been integral for people from my perspective, for non-Aboriginal people to stop and learn and understand more. I hope that the burden on First Nations people who are continuously getting asked the same question hope we get to ease that burden for them a little bit more in that it is interesting.
I think we've both just seen the opportunities that having a platform and the responsibility that having a platform that we have has to have the conversations. A lot of people have other platforms have said that thing came up and it was a weekend so we we couldn't tackle that till Monday. That's not how Oz and I have approached the way that we've tackled conversations on the platform. When the Queen died last year and there was a spontaneous public holiday was announced. We worked hard and quickly to put, pull together some content and a blog resource about the legacy, like the HR opportunities for either employees or businesses and sectors within the space of employee people to be able to offer an alternative public holiday for people if they chose not to mark that day as a day that required a public holiday. Those resources then carried on to Jan 26 as well, which would be another great one to link into your resource. But I think there are just some opportunities of we've been responsive and agile and opportunistic and seeing them, I think seeing the platform not just as this wonderful bright shiny thing, but it's a responsibility as well to do the work that's required of you when it's required of you.
That's just even that, the fact that you were able to move so quickly as well on this, what challenges then do you face in balancing that vision and that constant checking yourself against your vision and what are we trying to do here and the goals of we need to sell a certain amount so that we can do the things that we want to do with the practical aspects of running a business. Even when you were saying I can't imagine what the conversations, but I'm imagining from the head of marketing have worked in different places that it's like, okay everyone stops what you doing at work on this or this needs to be done or that people are working till all hours to get this done and there's yes, there's huge importance stuff and then it's also that's practical like we've still got the e-commerce site still needs to be going, we've got the store like who's working this? How do you manage and keep aligned with that vision and those goals whilst also running a big business?
I think every time we invest in a quality education piece that's timely. Our community will supporters appreciate it. And they reshare it. It's almost as if we're, people following us as much for the teas as they are for the educational content. We can't prioritize e-commerce over education and elevating causes for First Nations justice in this country. We've if we get distracted by the new linen shirt for too long, our audience is a bit like, well what do you think about this? I think that's one of the hardest things that we do is that we're almost straddling local aboriginal community politics at the same time and just the practicalities of fashion and also, I mean, we're in a cost of living crisis, so all of that's tricky and we don't have a lot of resources.
Seth and I have made some decisions about what it look like if we use our platform to elevate other work that people, great work that we want to support and lift them and introduce our community to other people who are doing great work. One of those is how islands are home and the Torres Strait Islander-led campaign where their homes are getting washed away. They're at the forefront of a climate crisis so we're not doing that work. What we're doing is just sharing their story. And certainly, I think as we grow and the, we felt a load of running the free the flag campaign and we don’t know to be honest, how sustainable, it's that we run our own campaigns into the future, but what we certainly can do is elevate others and that's a message for all businesses out there. How can you share your platform with other issues that align with your values to create social justice?
I think in that as well, our whole team is just as dedicated to the purpose and the cause as we are. When we bring in an idea or a conversation, of course, comes into work and everyone's been working on something for a while and she's like, something's come up and I think that we need to talk about it and this is why at no point is no one like, this has ruined my six-week work plan. It's like, of course, we have to, yes, let's do it. I think when you are for other businesses, when your team are just as inspired and connected to the purpose and the vision and the passion for change, sharing the roles in that becomes that little bit easier as well.
This goes to testament of like what type of culture you've created that people feel safe to show up and say, I think this or I think that which is missing from a lot of cultures, especially when you were talking about the brand getting a lot more maybe attention and recognition through a certain through the covid years. I feel like sometimes what can happen is that then it's still the people at the top making all the decisions and we're just trying to hurry and get enough people to deliver the work that we are trying to do at the moment. It's lovely that you have that you've created a team that feels that they can say what's on their mind or say those things. I've mentioned that you guys are in the book, which I'm very excited about particularly it going overseas and just potentially more people learning about the great work that you're doing.
Thank you again for being part of that. But in that one of the things that you talk about is staying true to the vision and in moments when it's challenging to stay true to it and you've just expressed some of the ways that you do, if anyone's reading, whether it's a vision that has this huge social impact or it's just like what we are trying to do with this brand, why did we start it? Do you have any tips for people when they just have gone off track and they want to come back on track or how do I get back to what I'm trying to do here?
Great question. Some people hitch their cart to something and then all of a sudden they go down the course and they go, this is so far away from what I want to be doing. But then there's that moment of choice fear often people will go, I've spent all of this money, I've done all of these things, I may as well just keep going now. I think that's often what we see people do, but I think it takes a lot of guts to your values to go, this isn't it. I don't want to do that. This isn't what gets me out of bed in the morning and I'm going to rabble back to a point in time and do a few things. It's going to cost me a bit of money, I'm going to have to communicate some changes, but I know in the long term it's going to be so much better. It's in your gut when it's happening and when you're still when you're rolling with those decisions because it's just happening around you. But I think if anybody's reading and they're like, I'm so off course with my vision of where I wanted to be and what I wanted to do if it's never too late to change. You just have to undo a few things and setting a new course might be hard.
We've gone down some tracks where, where it felt more like work. Whereas the work that we do at Clothing The Gaps, we work extremely hard and we do a lot of long hours. Most people in business, enjoy it along the way, even if it isn't the work that even if it's product development, we still get excited when our samples arrive, when the first person we see it the first time out in the world, I saw a little dog wearing a dog scarf, one of our dog scarfs. I got so excited. I was like, I made that dog scarf. We’re still excited by the work, but I think when you're not motivated by the work, it's probably because it's not values-led. You might be trying to do other things and it says, and I thought we might, we should follow this activity because I think it'll generate a small income and we'll both like, this feels like this is going to be conflict, just let's keep doing what we love because that's going to motivate us work.
Having said that, we try different things all the time. We never expected to make black pyjamas and that is a thing we never expected to make dog scarfs. But that's a thing and I think you have to keep generating it, be too hard on yourself if you try new things as long as you're motivated to do it as well, and inject new life into your brand and your work.
I could not agree more. I feel like sometimes on this podcast or with coaching or whatever, I feel like I just have to slam like, well probably not slam, that's the wrong analogy, but like I constantly am saying values. Because I'll say to people all the time, you can make all the money in the world, but if you don't have the values there, there's a sense of unfulfillment or just what am I doing? I got a tattoo, which people you might not even be able to see because there are two paths you can go down in life, one with your values or one out. I remember I got it, and my husband's like, wow, you're putting that front and centre on your hand. But I was like, it's a reminder because it's so important and I've seen so many people and I, I'm very privileged to get to sit with so many business owners where they haven't gone down with their values and it's caused all sorts of major mental health issues later in, in life as well.
Back to the education piece is a huge part of what you do and what you said before was one of the things that your audience and your community almost expect, but also shouldn't be taking it for granted. But appreciate when you do it and they share it in addition to building that community, what other marketing strategies have. Even just saying that sometimes people like, you're bringing marketing into it. But marketing is a huge part of business and the community is a huge way that people market market. What marketing strategies have you found most successful to grow the brand, attract those customers and then build that loyalty over time so that people keep coming back it's not just, that I bought one T-shirt, I'm never coming back again.
I would say when you buy from us you get a postcard, an educational postcard and a sticker. I think anyone who's in Melbourne might've seen a Clothing The Gaps sticker somewhere. Like they're everywhere. They're in helmets and drink bottles. I saw one on Gucci in Melbourne once. I was like, who jumped up and put that on the Gucci store? Like all in cars. I think very early on, we didn't have a big plan that our stickers were going to be every one that was part of the marketing strategy. But we haven't stopped making stickers because it's very much the gaps. It's about the visibility and every T-shirt we see out the world that is part of our marketing strategy and the fact that it's a great quality tea. It's part of our marketing strategy because if you look at our product reviews, people like most t-shirts ever, I'm like, great, tell that story. And also tell me the story of the conversation you had in it. There's this nod people do, and I know if you've had it Fiona like you see someone else including the Gap, you're like, that's my people. And it's almost like our customers and community are ours, they market us. Is there a name for it? Like a community marketing strategy almost
Feels a little bit like MLM when you buy from one, they sell two more. It's very much a brand built on trust and values. I think the thing that's key and core for laws is that relationships are at the heart of absolutely everything that we do as humans in the world. I think those values personally have translated into the brand as well in that not only is it so much more than a t it's a conversation starter. Our supporters, you heard laws refer to them before as like as our community of supporters. We don't call 'em customers, they're not shoppers, not clients. They're our community of supporters. And we also know that especially in a cost-of-living crisis, if someone's choosing to part ways with their hard-earned cash with us right now, we are so grateful for them to do that and for their choice to continue to elevate and share messages of change that honour and respect first nations people in this country, in the world. And I think that shines through in our quote-unquote marketing strategy when it's so much more about communication and relationship building and changing people's mindsets.
I want people when they look at our Instagram, it has a lot of our people, like, not necessarily our models, although we've used over what we call our, our role models, the people that we shoot for our role models. Because they're more than just models and like they're not models. They're just beautiful people in the community who are photographed and who are doing extraordinary things. But on Instagram, if you are wearing Clothing The Gaps and you tag us, we'll reshare you on our story. Is that part of a marking strategy? We haven't written it down, but of course, you've tagged us, and we're going to share it. But how many other brands, if you tag them, would they reshare you on their story? They probably wouldn't. And if it's a cute pick, I'll message that person and say, “Hey, I love that pick.”
Can I share it on our grid? And early on, like, and we still do refer to ourselves as a streetwear brand, but Seth and I have spoken about it quite a lot and that feels weird. I want to be a community brand. And lots of people say, but that's not cool. I'm saying I feel connected if people see us as a community band bracing community, not a fashion label. Because certainly you only take one look at Sarah and me and they're not fashion and they're not streetwear. They're just community people using fashion to do good. A community brand feels so much nicer. I think most people are looking for something different with brands. And I think to be successful you just have to be yourself. Stop looking at what every other brand's doing and keep being your authentic self because that's what's going to set you apart from everyone else and why people fall in love with you and your brand.
Because trust u's Fiona. If it was based on aesthetics, it's not laws and lies.
Yes, you too. Looking amazing. But it's so true because I have a couple of your pieces anyway. I was wearing your tracksuit pants to kinder pickup the other day and another woman was wearing your tracksuit top and she's like, look at us matchy. And there's a whole conversation around that with other parents who were there. And then even I did the stop sign for the community car park at the Warrandyte market recently and I was wearing my pants because they're the warmest pants. I mean I also wear them to look nice, but I was like, I'm standing here, it's four degrees and I have to do this for two hours. The amount of people that were like, what does it say on the side? And then you start talking and then you have a conversation and it's like some of the conversations are just like, these are warm, they're warm.
But you have that conversation and it's building that community all the time. On that, and I know this is a question we asked in the book as well, but what would you say to people who are like, “Hey, make $10,000 tomorrow.” Just go on Alibaba, find some sweaters, put your logo on it, put some cute slogan and you're going to sell. And then look at my warehouse and we're sending out 10,000, I'm rich. There's that business mentality of just, build a business and you'll make money tomorrow. And then there's the brand of like, I want to build something with meaning. What would you say to someone who's reading and doesn't understand the difference at the moment?
Good luck. If you're just trying to build a business, that's what I was to say, because whatcha competing on price? I think the most successful businesses are the brands that people can relate to the story that stand for more. People want to wear clothes and it might not have a message on it, but you want to be able to say, “Hey look, there's a lucky dress.” It's an Australian brand made around the corner. It's cool. It's made out of recycled plastic bags. These are the conversations people want to have around their clothes more. It's not just a brand or a name on a t-shirt. It would be very hard to be successful I think, if you didn't stand for more than that.
I wanted to ask, and I know you guys have busy lives, but with partnerships, I always think this is interesting when people work together, whether they're sisters, friends husband and wife, because a lot about each other sometimes more about each other and more about each other's money and finances than marriages or people that get into relationships. Did you decide early on this because you'd already worked together, this is how we'll divide up, who does what, Sarah does this, Laura does this or did that just happen? And have you got any tips for someone who's reading and thinking, I'm in a business partnership or I'd like to, or maybe they're reading this at work and being like, we should get out of here and build our own thing together. Have you got any tips for anyone reading?
I think because we worked together for quite a few years, sorry. I think we knew that we worked together well and that we had complementary skills. Think it was very naturally very clear who was looking after which pieces of the work as well. 'Because it was just where our natural talents and skills lay in those different areas. On far more operational laws is far more creative and obviously is an Aboriginal brand and business that of course also makes way more sense weird if it wasn't. One of the things that laws and I invested in early on when we didn't have much money as a business at all, but we prioritized it and committed to it was we did strong legal from the very beginning like laws. I imagined 10,000 ways that we might stop talking to each other or die and like have agreed upon scenarios of how we would move through and tackle those different situations. Touch wood should if favour arise. I think people who go into partnerships thinking that everything's sunflower rainbows and lollipops and that it always will be, I hope that it is. But it's just so important to have strong legal, strong communication and strong transparency and trust between the parties.
I think too, in addition to the complimentary skill sets, we had an energy match, so it was not like we both knew that each of us was going to work as hard, and we equally cared about it. And certainly, I'm so glad I'm in a partnership. I don't think this would be clean the guts are too much to hold. Knowing that someone's equally invested in it when it can get stressful when you are talking about like growing a platform and you are talking about politics and you are trying to keep a business afloat that's, I can't explain it like it's very tricky and it can be very scary, but it's nice to be able to share that with someone who fully understands it.
Have you had any other people that you've gone to? Mentors or did you have people that are in other social enterprise work that you could go to or who helped you most with this outside of each other and your team?
I think we've had a few different people with skill sets come in and help us at different points in time. We had Sue Anderson who guided us in the beginning around retail generally more retail, what is it and what you should know about it. We've had lawyers, we had Peter Francis help us with pro bono legal work. I think we've relied on Homey the other streetwear labour and social enterprise we went to early on because that was a brand that we looked up to and they shared their supplies with us and that was incredible.
I think the other thing too is just the business network. When you find your people, it's just so wonderful. And I think the social enterprise network in Victoria especially, but across the country is, it is just wonderful and the B Corp community as well, like massive shout out to the B Corp community. I think we're in some different accredited spaces that just ensure that the people before they even step in the room that you've gotta be aligned about something because otherwise, you wouldn't have tortured yourself with this huge accreditation process. I think we have some lovely friendships and support networks across a couple of those great communities of Networks as well.
We draw on our aboriginal businesses as well for support and surround ourselves with people who are doing similar work because they can understand what it's like and they can give us the best advice as well.
Amazing. Finally, what are you most proud of from your journey in this business so far?
From creating it, we didn't know what we were going into. I think probably, you hear it thrown around a lot, is probably the grit and tenacity that we've had. Probably the courage Sarah and I have shown to keep stepping into the unknown together. We don't reflect on it, but there's probably a lot of stuff that we've done like we never planned to do, but we still do it. And when it doesn't work out, which 50% of the time it doesn't, we'll just prop those T-shirts or we'll dye them or we'll recycle them. Or we find other ways when things don't work out and fashion's the least of our problems if we over-order or do stuff. But we're able to generally work things out.
I'm glad that I guess for Sarah and me, we're and I'm proud that we can set an example and we're starting to play a little bit more in the bigger mainstream global, at least Australian retail space as an example to other businesses about how they can create social change through how they do business every day. And that's such an opportunity, and we spoke about it before, like businesses have bigger platforms and politicians, we can be more influential than politicians. We can change people's minds and hearts. People love their brand. I'm proud that we can share our experiences and hopefully, more brands can follow in our footsteps.
I just love seeing more and more people being so proud open and loud about their values in the world and what they support. And for me, as I said before, as a non-Aboriginal person, seeing more non-Aboriginal people, respecting, country honouring elders, prioritising those conversations in those spaces. It is incredible. And knowing that every single piece, every tea that goes out our doors or is packed out and sent out into our supporters' hands carries an Aboriginal flag on the back of it. When we look at the landscape, the social landscape in Australia in the last 10 years ago, 15, 14 years ago when I moved to Melbourne, that certainly wasn't what it looked like. I'm so incredibly proud and grateful that we've had the opportunity to change what the streets of places look like and people's homes and people's workplaces. And to see that there are more opportunities to have more conversations, and to see more social change, the better.
It has been such a privilege to chat with you again. And honestly thank you again for all that you do, thank you for coming into the book and we're going to be celebrating that. What you do is just incredible and you guys work tirelessly to get this to happen and the education piece and just the constant giving and giving. Where can people connect with you if people, we have a big global audience for this podcast, which is so nice. Thank you. Particularly if you're living outside of Australia, thank you if you're reading in Australia as well. But where can people connect with you and where can they find out more if they are reading?
Probably head to our social media. Just at closing the gaps or our website, clothingthegaps.com.au. I guess for Sarah and I, it's exciting for us to think about international people wearing merch with a message and messages that support First Nations people here in Australia. I would say to anyone outside of Australia to have these conversations internationally about First Nations rights and justice and what's going on here for First Nations people because that support globally for Indigenous people here would be incredible.
That's Amazing. Thank you again both for coming on and sharing and I just can't wait to see how the brand keeps evolving and changing and impacting.
Thank you so much, Fiona.
Thanks, Fiona. Thank you for your support.
Bye.
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Out of all the podcast interviews I have done on this podcast and we're up to 220 maybe of those, this has to be one of my absolute favourites. There was so much in that conversation, that it's going to be hard to just point out two things that stood out as I always do with interview episodes because there were just so many. I know that there'll be so many people listening to this who are going to rethink the way they run their business, rethink maybe things that they do in their personal life and understand what is possible. I just took so much away from that and I know that Laura and Sarah, they're just so humble when they give out so much of themselves and yet they are making massive changes happen. Not just in social justice, but also just in the way that people think about what is possible.
I know that even the small business owners reading are going to take away so much from this and understanding maybe I can do that thing that I've been dreaming of. I will narrow it down to just two points as I always do. The things that stood out for me from this particular chat with Laura Thompson (Gunditjmara) and Sarah Sheridan of Clothing The Gaps. Before I jump into those two things if you want to connect with Clothing The Gaps, you can head on over to clothingthegaps.com.au. Again, there's so much in the education hub, there's so much in the collections, they're super cool. I have quite a few items of their clothing. I also have this incredible picnic blanket that we use all the time that is soundproof like the stuff is incredible quality by itself, let alone the impact that buying the brand does on the whole of society here in Australia.
As I said at the start, it's a brand that so many brands around the world can look to as a blueprint of what is possible and how you do things well. We'll link to everything that Sarah and Laura mentioned, including the Free the Flag campaign that they referenced and Closing the Gap and their education hub at clothingthegaps.com.au. We'll link to all of that plus their social media at mydailybusiness.com/podcast/436. You could also Google Clothing The Gaps and you'll find all of the links usually there as well. But if you want to go through this in text format, and I know a lot of people like to go through it in text format, you can also find that at the same link mydailybusiness.com/podcast/436. The two things that stood out most for me, and again this is very hard to just narrow it down to two, the first is the absolute alignment to values.
It is so clear from this discussion and from everything that Clothing The Gaps does this absolute alignment to values. They talked about at the very start of the brand they didn't sit down and orchestrate and understand exactly how they were going to build this massive social enterprise and how it was going to work and the streetwear and all the things involved, they sat down and thought about what do we want to change and what are our values and how can we create something in alignment with those values? And it's something that they talked about coming back to again and again and again to understand cement and stay in alignment with those values. I think that's something that I work with a lot of people on brand strategy, building their brand, reframing their brand, rebranding and all sorts of things.
Often values are a huge part of that. But sometimes people can get caught up in, I've gotta tick the box, it's part of brand strategy, here's my values. And then they don't look at everything that they're doing in business through the filter of those values. It becomes something that they do once they put it into a nice presentation deck and then they don't look at it again. Or maybe they put them on their website, but they're not checking themselves on the regular as to are adhering to these? Can somebody look at what we do and easily see alignment both internal and external alignment through our values? It's something that Clothing The Gaps do incredibly well, but I think it is just at the core of who they are as people.
I just love that they talked about it because it's something I agree with as well. I've seen so many businesses where they're making incredible money, but there's a massive unfulfillment there because there's just a misalignment of values and they can have this financial success and all these other things. But without that alignment of values, honestly, the satisfaction and the enjoyment and the fulfilment that comes from that, let alone the impact that you can have on those around you doesn't happen. It doesn't happen if you don't have alignment to values and clothing. The Gaps are just such a strong brand that nails that. The second thing that stood out, and it's a huge part of why I wanted to have a profile on Clothing The Gaps and interview them for the book, is this idea of starting somewhere and not letting the overwhelm of, it all too big, it's all bigger than me, there's no way that I can make a dent, I can't have an impact get to you.
I love that they talked about understanding that you have agency and not doing something that is also a choice that you're making. I often think of the Arthur Ash quote, I've used it so many times and it's helped me so many times, which is, start where you are, use what you have, do what you can. Many of us think that we have to get to a certain space in our business or a certain place financially or a certain place in terms of the number of staff we have for us to then get behind causes that we believe in or then post about things that we are interested in outside of the products or services that we offer, or then collaborate or then partner or then make an impact. What came across so much through this conversation is the idea of what you want to change.
What do you think needs improvement or awareness or support or education, what do you think is important and then how can my business aid in that? Sarah talked about just even looking at the packaging that you use to send out things. Laura talked about understanding your impact on the country and there are so many other things that we can do as small business owners to have an impact. It can't be that idea of, in my personal life I'm going to do this or I'm going to get behind this cause or I'm going to look around the house and look at how we recycle. If we are not carrying that same intention into our business business. Small business I think in Australia at least makes up I think something like 97% of all businesses and I think it employs more than half the country.
We have absolute massive power to change things if all of us take a role in doing so. I love that they talked about asking yourself, if you're choosing not to do something, then what are you choosing? Because that's also a choice. It's also a choice to ignore the idea of, let's look at our waste management or ignore the idea of, what do we believe, what do we want to talk about in terms of what's happening in society? All of these things are so important and I think a lot of the time people in business shy away from it thinking, well I can do that in my personal life, but it's not something I need to do in business. I would ask you to consider your viewpoints on why you think like that and any fears that you have about that as well.
Again, I just want to say a massive thank you to Laura Thompson (Gunditjmara) and Sarah Sheridan for coming on the podcast, and also being part of my new book Business to Brand Moving from Transaction to Transformation. You can read the full profile with them in the book Business to Brand. You can pre-order that pretty much everywhere. You can also pre-order it from us and get a signed copy. You can find that at mydailybusiness.com. If you're interested and you're in Melbourne, or if you want to come to our online launch, you can find all the information for the book launch at mydailybusiness.com/booklaunch. Again, you can find all the information for Clothing The Gaps, their Education Hub, and check out all of their incredible apparel and accessories over at clothingthegaps.com.au and on Instagram @clothingthegaps. If you want to go through this in text format, you can find that and all the links at mydailybusiness.com/podcast/436. Thank you so much for reading. Again, if you're First Nations and you need any help after this, check out 13Yarn and Well Mob. See you next time. Bye.
