Episode 54: On Building A Sustainable Business with Local Manufacturers and Working With Your Life Partner – Coco Flip’s Kate Stokes’ Journey on running a business that lasts

10 Dec

In this interview, Fiona talks to Kate Stokes, owner of Coco Flip - a Melbourne-based furniture and lighting design brand. Kate shares what the challenges are when running a product-based business and running a business with her life partner while raising small children, particularly during 2020. Fiona and Kate also talk about why it’s important to work with local manufactures and how doing so has helped Coco Flip build a tight-knit and loyal community.

Topics discussed in this episode:

Introduction
Catching Up
Covid's Impact on The Business
What is Coco Flip?
On Kate's Upbringing
Working with Your Life Partner
Cultivating Relationships wit Local Manufacturer
Key Lessons in Running The Business
Her Mentors, Book and Course Recommendations
On Finding Stockists
Her Mantra During Challenging Times
Working As A Small Team
On Doing Things Differently
Platforms or Tools For The Business
Kate's Most Proud Moment
Connecting with Kate
Conclusion

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Coco Flip

161A Heidelberg Rd

Northcote VIC 3070

Australia

info@cocoflip.com.au

Website

Instagram

Facebook

Episode transcript:

Following my gut has been my main lesson throughout, I think is whenever I have done something that didn't feel quite right, it normally ends up being not quite right. So, yeah, following my gut has definitely been a huge bonus.

Hello and welcome to Episode 54 of the My Daily Business Coach podcast, if this is the very first time you're listening to this podcast, thank you so much for choosing it.

My name is Fiona Killackey. I'm a business coach. And my aim with this podcast is to really bring you insights and inspiration and practical tips and tactics that will help you in your small business journey. And today's episode is definitely going to do that. And it is super heavy on the inspiration and insight. Today, I'm bringing you an interview episode, and this particular interview is with an incredible, humble and very compassionate small business owner who has taken her passion and created a business that's not only successful and respected globally, but it's a business that has maintained that place, that spot, for more than a decade, which is a huge accomplishment.

Kate Stokes is the founder of Coco Flip, an award winning and highly coveted lighting and furniture design company based in Melbourne, Australia. And if you don't know Coco Flip, then make sure you pop on over to Instagram and check out their stunning designs there @Coco_flip (online – cocoflip.com.au) today. They make just beautiful pieces that are super considered and it built to last and somehow perfectly balanced, you know, classic style with modern design.

So I first met Kate when she attended a workshop that I was running and I was just making small talk as people arrived. And I realised that she had come all the way from the neighbouring suburb next to me. Neither of us sort of lived near where I was running this workshop. And so I randomly suggested, you know, we should have a book club because I love books. And I was sort of like, oh, you know, you live in the next suburb. Maybe we should form a book club. And she wholeheartedly agreed. And while it took me a few more years to get around to making that happen, it was an example of just how warm and open Kate is.

She was like, “yeah, sounds good”. And she didn't know me at all, but she had this really calm and warm demeanor and it just left me wanting to know more about her. I later learned when everybody had arrived at the workshop and we were doing the sort of introductions just how very, very well regarded Kate was in the design landscape here in Australia. And yet when she was introducing herself, she didn't make any sort of fuss about her business or her brand. It was really the other people that attending that really gushed over it.

And again, I think this is very Kate, she is very humble by nature. She is not someone to blow her own horn, although she absolutely could, because she has achieved so much. She's also not someone who would ever present her own accolades in such a way as to make anyone else feel less than or uncomfortable.

And I've since worked with Kate in a coaching setting. And I've watched her just give so many tips and insight and feedback and suggestions to people who are starting out in their design journey. And she's always so encouraging and gentle and never one to disregard anybody else's ideas despite their level of experience or skill set in comparison to her own in terms of business.

Like I mentioned earlier, I did suggest to Kate that we form book club and in late 2019, I think it was September really last year, we did just that. And again, in this more personal setting, I have witnessed Kate always be so incredibly welcoming and kind. People always quick to offer advice or connections. You know, she hooked me up with an amazing sleep consultant when I was like, “oh, my child is not sleeping, what am I going to do?” And she absolutely helped our family save their sanity. Thank you, Kate, if you're listening.

But she's also just an amazing listener to everyone in our book club. And I think that trait, the art of really listening to people is one that is becoming rarer and rarer. And Kate definitely has that in spades.

In this interview. Kate is so honest and real about what the challenges are when running a product-based business and running a business while raising a small child, particularly during 2020 when we've had home, school and lack of childcare and all sorts of other challenges come up.

But despite being so successful for more than a decade, Kate admits in this interview that she's still learning. You know, she's learning every day and that she does go through periods of not loving every single aspect of her business. Kate runs Coco Flip with her husband, architect Haslet Ground. And in our chat, she also discusses what it's like to work with your life partner and how they balance each other out. She also just talks about how she's built a community of suppliers and crafts people around the brand and how she went about getting her products into key stockists.

Kate's brand is one that is very much aligned to their values. They truly do live up to them internally and externally. And in this interview, that passion for building a sustainable business with products that will last and then not just, you know, fast moving kind of goods, they're things that people will hopefully hand down from generation to generation. All of that comes across in our chat today. Kate is so giving, so generous. She's funny, gentle and kind, and I absolutely love chatting with her, and I know that you'll love this interview, too.

So here it is, my chat with the wonderful Kate Stokes, founder of Coco Flip.

Welcome Kate Stokes from Coco Flip. I'm super excited about having you on the podcast today.

Thank you, Fiona. It's so nice to be talking to you.

It is. It is. It's really lovely how I was talking to you. I mean, not to be talking to me, but how are you feeling about the last 12 months and how has it impacted your life? I know that your parent and also your business Coco Flip.

It's been a big test in so many ways this year, I think for for everyone globally. And I've definitely experienced the full gamut of emotions from really, really challenging times to really quite grateful for some of the slower times and the experiences that have evolved. I think, you know, everyone's had such a unique experience, no matter where you are in the world, depending on your circumstances. And it's just been hugely challenging to uproot everything. And I think for us, really, the biggest challenge has been having young kids at home.

We've got a four year old and a six year old. So our six year old has she's in her first year of school and work-wise, we we just opened a showroom. We share a room with playroom in Northcott. And that really just opened at the end of last year. So that's been closed for the majority of this year.

But we've been we've been really fortunate in business. I think things have ticked away with being extremely grateful for the support that we have received. And all of our manufacturing is local. So things were slower, but pretty steady and ticked along. And we've learnt a lot about ourselves along the way.

Yes, I hear you on that front, especially with small children. So hats off for getting through it, let alone having that and also having a business to run. Can you tell us a bit about Coco Flip? So I have just obviously talked about it in the intro that people just heard right now. But it's amazing that you've been going longer than more than a decade now. Congratulations. And your products are known for just being so beautiful. But how do you describe Coco Flip? And also how did you come up with the name Coco Flip?

So I'll describe it for a Melbourne based furniture and lasting design brand. We’re purposefully small. We work really closely with a small group of local manufacturers and our mission really is to produce products with personality that are manufactured locally and designed to last a lifetime. So that sort of sums us up. The name is quite silly. It's a reference to one of my first pets, which was a baby goose that Gosling called a flip. So I was born in a small country town called Donnybrook in Western Australia, and we just adored this little goose. And so it's a little bit of a nod to that. But I knew early on I didn't want to use my name.

A lot of furniture designers do use their name as their brand, and I wanted this to be separate from myself. So that was a conscious decision. A lot of our work is about balance, so we'd like to try and balance that timeless and the contemporary. It's about work life balance and it's about celebrating the good things in life. So I think the name for me sort of sums up all of those things. There's an aspect of tradition, but doing things a little bit differently as well.

Oh, I love that story. Oh, that's so interesting. I hadn't heard it before and did you say it was a goose? Yeah. So that's amazing. And I knew that you'd grown up in Western Australia, but I didn't realise that. Yeah. That was your upbringing. So can you actually talk through a little bit more about your upbringing? I always think it's interesting to find out where people have come from and also things like I know that and I think you're younger than me, but with our generation, there's still like a still a lot of our friends might be, oh, gosh, I couldn't start a business because I think the next generation coming up, it's so much more acceptable, particularly with their parents and upbringing, to have your own business right from the get go, but were your parents small business owners? And what was the kind of upbringing like and did that contribute to being able to start a business in the design and creative sector?

Yeah, it's been interesting reflecting on this, because I think on the surface, there's no clear influence from my upbringing to what I do now. So both of my parents worked as GPs and when we were in Donnybrook, where I was born, they were doing country GP work. But I do think now, looking back most of my childhood, they actually ran a family practice together. So I guess there is a small business aspect to that which I never really appreciated as a kid or growing up. Now I can look back and think there was a lot more to it than just being a GP, and I also think they really had a really strong sense of adventure and independence. So they've lived in a lot of different places from Donnybrook, and then when my brother and I grew up, they did locums in Cocos Islands and Christmas Island and King Island. So they're real adventurers. And I think they instilled in both my brother and I a really strong sense of adventure and independence. And they encouraged us to follow our passion from the get go, which is a pretty special thing, I think, to grow up with.

So while they were in the medical world, they never, ever expected that of us. In fact, that probably, if anything, that probably swayed us more towards a creative life and lived vicariously through that. And I think, yeah, I never really thought of myself much as a business person or a natural entrepreneur. But looking back, I think there has always been a little bit of that in me. One of my first paid jobs was actually doing some glass art on some bottles for a cafe.

So I think I was about 12 at I went I set up a business meeting with the cafe owner and suggested to him that I should paint in the logo on the crest. And I think I was paid about eight dollars a bottle or something. And I went to the meeting with my dad. And yeah, that was my first kind of paid gig. It's strange to look back on that.

And I think that's that love of creating something and selling it has probably always been there. But I only really found that creative part of me in probably middle of high school. I really got into the art classes and yeah, balancing that with a left and right brain, I think as well has led me to doing what I do now.

Wow. I find that fascinating because my sister is actually a regional country GP and she owns her own practice. And yeah, it's really fascinating that you can't I mean, a GP that can go anywhere, really. Everyone needs doctors, don't they?

And also I love the story about the bottles. How amazing. When you were 12. When I was 12, I was a store detective in the newsagents that my siblings worked at, basically because I think the guy felt sorry for me. So he's like, you can have a couple of hours work to just walk around, walk around and check out stealing anything. Yeah, wasn't quite as creative as that, but obviously your family's quite important to you. And I know that being stuck in Victoria must have been hard this year when everyone else is over in WA or your parents are over at WA.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I've been really grateful that this thing somewhere where I can be free and safe as well. My brother lives in New York, so that's been challenging. And yeah, we obviously really excited to see everyone as soon as we can.

Yes, I imagine that. And so you mentioned your children as well. And you live with and run your business with your partner in life and work architect Haslett Grounds. What is it like to work with your partner? And I know that covid may have had some extra impact on people this year, but there are definitely couples, I think, that can work together. And then there are couples that cannot work together. Obviously, you guys can work together, but what's that like? And was that something that you planned out? Oh, we should both work on this or is it something that just naturally happened or how did that kind of come about?

Yeah, I definitely don't think it's for everyone working with a partner, and it certainly has its challenges, but for us it really works. We did not plan to work together, so we met in 2007 and we actually moved to Melbourne together in 2008. And Haslet was still studying architecture. When I started Coco Flip, so it was very much my baby. But in saying that, you know, as a small business owner and solo business owner, he was always very involved and I would run ideas past him. And he obviously has a lot of skills from architecture that complement the business.

So what happened naturally was that the business grew to a point where I needed some help. And he was at a point with architecture where he wanted to start doing his own things, which also takes the time to build up enough clients and work. So it's sort of naturally fell to place that he could work with me on Coco Flip as well as his own practise and then build that up. So, yeah, it's been lovely. And we do have really complementary skill sets, those things that I do not like doing or I'm not good at that he is extremely good at and vice versa. So it works for us and I really can't imagine doing it with anyone else now, I guess because we can be so open with each other and yeah, I mean he has to put up with all my stresses and worries and things as well. But, you know, we can be completely frank with each other about where we're at. And there's so much you know about your partner from behind the scenes that you wouldn't know about an employee. So, yeah, it's been an adventure.

Yes, I can imagine. Yeah, I, I think it's fantastic when you say. I work with quite a few couples and I think it's really awesome when I say the one is cool and I ask a question and one answers and then the other one kind of chimes in and they just know each other so well. And I think it's really, really special and that can happen. So congratulations. And also getting through it, I think every couple should be congratulated if they have children and they have to go through home schooling for this long. But one of the other things that you're quite passionate about, and it comes across very much in the brand, is manufacturing locally. And you talked about that at the start as well when you described Coco Flip, now I'm guessing due to covid-19, this is actually quite helpful this year. But I imagine prior to this year, for the last decade that you've been running, it may have been quite difficult at times or even at the start to find the right people to work with. So I'm wondering, how did you find them and also how have you had to cultivate those relationships over the years? Because it could be one thing to find somebody and another to kind of have a really long standing relationship. And also, if you wanted to go down that, have you ever been tempted to just go offshore and do that whole thing? Because often it could be cheaper and quicker and stuff like that.

Yeah, I've never been tempted. Local manufacturing has always been really at the core of our business. So I actually can't imagine doing things any other way. For us, the manufacturers that we work with, part of Cook Sleep and they're part of our extended family. So they like to say we're a small part of a big community. So we might be a small team, but we have this really wide net of fantastic, talented people that we work with and we learn so much from them. And it's really a collaboration.

So I think there's certainly values and ethics side of it, but there's also a business side of it where, practically speaking, it makes our life a lot easier to be able to speak directly with a local manufacturer, talk through any issues. We can visit them in person if need be. And it's it's just a lovely way of doing business and of celebrating the amazing talent that they have. There's only so much as a designer that you can understand about every material you work with and every process you work with then. And they're just these pools of knowledge.

So we get so much from them. And I am a big believer that they should be celebrated as much as designers. They're often behind the scenes, but we try and bring them to the to the forefront a bit more. Finding the right manufacturers to work with is a huge challenge and can be really you can get led down the garden path a bit. I find the best thing to do is always meet people in person and follow your gut instincts. You can just get so much from that first interaction and their attitude to what you're doing. There's a lot of trust involved, I think when you're working with manufacturers, they don’t want to have their time wasted and only extremely busy, so there's yeah, you have to really nurture the relationship and develop a trust between you that it's going to work for both parties.

Oh, I love that and I love that you said we’re just a small cog in the whole machine and this whole kind of community and I loved that you guys recently did or are still doing meet the maker. So you're actually profiling these people, which is amazing to see, especially when you say, yeah, like I said, the depth of experience that they've got behind them. I can't remember what the guy was called. Is it Charlie? And he in that industry like timba craftsmanship for so long. Like it's so long.

I mean, he's he's amazing and such a lovely guy as well. And yeah. I mean, it's it really suits our business because all of our products are produced in small production runs or sometimes made specifically to order. So it means that we don't have to buy in containers of furniture that may not sell. You know, you can be much more strategic about what you do and there's minimal waste as well, only making furniture that that people are ordering. And yeah, it's just that that knowledge of where it's coming from, I like to tell customers sometimes. “Yes. So the timber is made in Preston, our metal work are in Lilydale.”, and it gives people a much better sense of ownership over the products that they're buying when they understand why it costs what it costs and the processes that are involved in making it.

I'm so passionate about those processes and the beauty of making things. So we really want to educate our customers about that, too.

Yeah. And you do you do that? Well, I have bought one of your tables and I've really enjoyed having to wait for something like it's not like how it's being made and it's being made just for me. It's a really nice way to purchase something, I think, especially these days where there's just so much out there. And it's really nice to be like knowing someone's crafting these and they're taking the time.

So, yeah, that's lovely to hear.

Yeah, that's really lovely. And so you have been I mentioned before, you've been in business now for more than a decade, which is huge. And I think that you guys should just feel so, so, so proud of that because so many businesses do fail in the first sort of three to five years. What do you think are some of the key lessons that you've learnt in that time? And also, have you had to change much about yourself as a person or upskill or do kind of courses or other things to be able to stay successful for so long?

Thank you. It's hard to believe that it's been ten years because we have had such an organic journey. I've learnt so much just on the way, naturally and starting out. I was so naive. I really didn't know what I was hoping for it to become. It was really a try and see what happens. And so things evolved really, really naturally. So I think when I think of ten years, we didn't, I don't think hit the ground running and yeah, just really slow growth, which probably has been one of the reasons that we're still in business, to be honest. Also, having two kids along the way has meant that throughout that time I've had to step back and, you know, work out how we manage things with such a small team and give myself enough space to to mother and and do that in the way I wanted to do. So I'd say changing us as a business owner of mainly self-taught but speaking with other people is just hugely beneficial. I've got a lot of other friends who run creative businesses and speaking with them just makes things feel so much, so much easier. Following my gut has been my main lesson throughout, I think is whenever I have done something that didn't feel quite right, it normally ends up being not quite right. So yeah, following my gut has definitely been a huge, a huge bonus.

[00:24:10] And then I did your small business course, which was a group, a group cos and that was not so lucky, but that was a huge, a really huge help for me in shifting my mindset from the very, very early days of running a small business. And probably I think I lost the love for it a little bit along the way. And yeah, doing that course really helped me to look at things from a bigger picture and sort of think about where we want to be in the next ten years and just find that love of running a business again, which I set out. I mean, I studied design and I'm like first and foremost a designer, not an entrepreneur or a business owner. So that's a lot of things that don't feel 100 percent natural. And you do have to constantly educate yourself and read and learn and just push push your own comfort zones. I think. So that's that's. Yeah, a big challenge, but hugely rewarding.

Oh, thank you, and I'll pay you later, OK? Thank you. Thank you. That's very kind. But yeah, I totally agree with you about that.

Listening to your gut, I feel the same. Like I feel like there's a couple of instances in the last five years where things haven't gone the way I've wanted them to go or where I've worked with somebody that I knew wasn't going to be a great experience. And I should have just listened to my gut as well. I feel like, you know, I come from a very data heavy career background, but I just feel like there's nothing as much as your instinct will often lead you the right way. Yeah, yeah. I absolutely love that. And then another thing that you've just mentioned as well is learning from yourself your own growth. I often think that running a business is a bit like going to therapy or being the psychologist and the person in therapy at the same time, like, why am I doing this? Why are you doing this?

Yes, there's a lot of solo conversations that go on.

Yes. Something else that I love about you and I've seen this in so many instances because Kate and I are in a book club together and oh, my gosh, we're seeing each other tomorrow, not God, because I got have Zoom book club meetings. Cannot wait. But yeah, one thing I really love about you is that you want to help others and it's a genuine it's not whether you're doing it to get something back. And I've seen this in the design land of seeing people talk about, you know, people that you've mentored from afar or that you've mentored with award ceremonies or other things. Also people you've just met. And I've witnessed it in the group coaching program I saw so many times. You offer really great experiences, advice to people that are just sort of starting out and also in a book club, because you've been invaluable even to me to help me with giving a sleep consultant for sleep issues. Thank you so much for one of our children. But you are so kind and gentle and generous, and I know you're probably blushing right now because you're not somebody who kind of goes outwardly saying, look at me, I'm so great. But I would love to know who has helped you in terms of growing your business or managing things over the last 10 years. Do you have any mentors or courses or books? And you don't need to mention anything to do with me, you know, other things that have helped you.

That's very, very lovely to hear. Thank you. Very sweet. I mean, I don't really think of myself that of someone who goes above and beyond in that way. I think we're all just humans. And there's you know, there's so much that comes back from from helping people. It's really what it's all about. So I'd say from the moment we landed in Melbourne, there has been a huge sense that there's a design Australian design community here that is incredibly nurturing and supportive and collegiate, which I never managed to find in Perth, perhaps because it's just a much smaller city. But I was blown away by the culture here of of helping each other out. It doesn't feel competitive. It genuinely feels like there's space for everyone to do what they want to do and that people really hope, you know, bring each other up rather than pushing each other down. So that makes working in the industry really enjoyable. And I think starting out, I was lucky enough to make some incredible people who took a chance on me, gave me wonderful advice and just supported and encouraged me along the way. So one of those is Ross Hines, who is the owner of Tongue and Groove, and he was one of our first retailers. I showed him the concept for this product and he said, yeah, go for it, get it made, we'll sell it. And having those little points of people just believing in you make all the difference when you're starting something and it's terrifying. And so, yeah, meeting him was fabulous. And we still work with him today. Richard Mineo of Cult as well, which is one of our suppliers. And they're a much bigger company. And he's always been supportive of of Australian design as well as they they import a lot of European design. But having someone that you can ask about costing and about just the way that the retail works and wholesaling and all those things, it's been incredible. So I think there's a there's a real culture of generosity and and sharing in Melbourne that I absolutely love. And yeah, other than that, I don't read a lot of business books. I probably should read more, but I as I said, I don't think I'm a natural business person. I think we do this because we love what we do and the business is a result of that. So I'm probably not as calculated as I should be when it comes to business, but that's just what feels natural to us and. And now sharing a room with him as well, it's an amazing resource to have a lake there. Our businesses are very, very similar in scale and it's just so nice to out of bounce ideas and issues of each other.

It's almost like I think it's kind of like a small country town, but it's not. I feel like everyone knows everyone, but everyone is just always eager to help as well. So I completely agree with that. When you did meet these two people that have been so, so such mentors to you when you were just starting out. So somebody is listening to this and they're like, well, I've got a product business and I have no idea how I would even know, not even if it's a cult and a cult is so huge. But if it was if they're just going to like a local boutique home with a shop that is near them, was there any kind of tips or how did you do that? Did you just pick up the phone? Did you just walk in there and be like, here's my designs? How did you do that? Especially because you've come from a different state. So was it a friend of a friend or do you have advice for somebody listening who is like, I know I need to go out and talk to stockists or talk to people like this?

I just have no idea how I would always encourage people to reach out to people if they if they want to. People can always say no, but there's no harm in contacting someone. But in saying that, I think that there's naturally ways that things evolve, too. So I mean, when I first moved to Melbourne, I worked for State of Design Festival, which was a government run design festival. And so I met some incredibly supportive people and just talented and amazing people doing that in our team. And they then link you to someone else. I'll give you a number. So I think networking, as much as it's a dirty word, it is really important and you can do it in a really human way. So, you know, going to events and. Yeah, knowing what sort of competitions are out there with Ross, I actually remember walking down Smith Street and seeing his daughter on Grove and just walking in and having a chat and saying that I recently moved across from Perth and that I studied furniture design and and love what he's doing. And I ended up working there just for fun, basically. Yes. I think putting yourself out there and and just having a go is is vital. The relationship with Colt came about through a competition, so they ran a thing called Pitch and invited me to pitch a product amongst I think there were about five other designers. And I remember sending the images of the product to Richard and saying, would you maybe consider actually stocking this as well with me just being involved in the event? And he he wrote back within about half an hour and said, yes. And I just I remember that moment extremely clearly because I was just pinching myself. I couldn't believe that that was even an option. I'd sort of thought, oh, I'll have a try. Yeah. So I think you never you never know and just talk to as many people as possible and give it a go.

Yeah, I completely agree with that. Ten thousand percent, you know, give it a go.

I always to think people are people, you know, nice people aren't going to be horrible to you, they just can not get back to you or say no. And you haven't lost anything by having a go. So thank you for sharing that because you have been in business for so long. What do you think has been the hardest part? I think when people are starting out, they can easily be like, oh my gosh, this is hard, this is hard and it all seems hard. But you've been in business now for more than a decade. Other elements of business that you always feel behind that or that parts of it that just even now are hard.

Yeah, absolutely. There's always challenges, I think. And I often feel quite out of my comfort zone in business. And there's definitely days, sometimes weeks where I wonder if this is for me. I think I'm naturally much more of an introvert. And sometimes running a small business as an introvert is really tricky because you have to put yourself out there and you have to sort of, to an extent, hustle and and be part of that, you know, sell. So I kind of think otherwise. Otherwise you'll just think. So there's there's yeah, there is a big part of me that would probably prefer to be more behind the scenes and Ottoway. But I've yeah, I've learnt to do it in my own way, I think, and in a way that feels natural to me. But I think I'm probably far too involved still in the business. It's it's very personal to me. And yeah, I probably it's really the only way I know. How to run a business, but I think I should probably be a bit more set back a little bit more. I think the family work balance has been a challenge from the day that my first daughter was born. And I'm still I'm still figuring that out. I don't think there's an easy answer. But, yeah, I'd say that those those parts of the business, I don't know that I've worked it out, but still learning.

Oh, I feel like everyone is still learning. I feel like parenthood is just one giant education. Yeah. Yeah. I also feel like it's hard because at times it will be.

I'm sure you find this as well. You'll have the balance in inverted commas. And then other times it'll just there's no way to have the balance. It's like, oh my gosh, everything at once. And you just have to ride those kind of waves.

Like if yeah, I'm working on being kinder to myself and just accepting that you can't do it all all of the time. And that's OK. And, you know, I think as I get older, I'm much more aware that, you know, I don't want my legacy to be that I just worked my butt off that so much more to it than that. And yeah, a happy, happy household is definitely my main priority.

Yeah. Yeah. And I'm sure it'll it'll be there if it's not already. But do you have any. Because I'm a big one for quotes as you know. But do you have any mantras or quotes or kind of sayings or things that you come back to when times are challenging, whether it's, you know, what you just talked about with the the balance, although it's funny, one of my friends or somebody I remember who said it, maybe it was in a book, but they have like they said, instead of saying work life balance, you should say work life integration, integrate with each other. But do you have mantras or anything you come back to when you're in these challenging times?

I write specific mantras or quotes, but I think there's a few concepts that I rely on when things are tricky and I couldn't agree more work life integration at work is our life and our life is at work, basically. I mean, we we're so connected with this business that we do really live and breathe it. And there's not a day that I don't that I'm not thinking about work to an extent. So you have to learn healthy ways of living with that. I think one of the main things when I'm feeling really down or like I just don't want to be part of this today, I keep reminding myself that I can't really be said. But 80 percent of success is showing up. And if you just keep putting one step of the other and do something that you feel you can do is better than just, you know, completely switching off and and not doing anything or running away, I suppose. I don't. Yeah. So just telling yourself like, it's okay, you don't have to come up with all of the answers today. But if you just respond to a few of your emails and, you know, readily get on top of things that can that can really shift your mood and your perspective on things. And yet following up, I think is is one of the the main things as part of that. So showing up and then following up, because it's not an easy it's never an easy path to get a product made and into production or released is is like challenge after challenge. So you can feel a bit like you bang your head against a brick wall at times, but it's just one foot in front of the other, slowly, slowly getting there and you will get there. You always do in the end. But they don't it doesn't happen instantly. So I think a slower approach and just day by day and yeah, I think you can look back and be surprised at what you did actually achieve.

Yeah, I think I think of myself as a bit of a lazy perfectionist, which is such a such a contradiction.

But I, I want things to be done perfectly and I want them to be done instantly. But I'm also quite lazy. So I try just to remind myself that good things take time. Nothing good ever comes quickly. So ticking away at things slowly and surely is. Yeah. Is it is a good approach for me.

Oh I love that. I might have to steal it because I feel like that's me to some degree as well.

That's what it has comes in because he's like I can do like well you know, it just makes things happen.

So I'm often the sort of big thinker vision person and then he's the, the grunt work of that.

Oh, that's so much. I love everything that you just said and all of the kind of taking small steps and all of that. It reminded me years ago, I like to run. Well, everyone knows how to run to some degree, some people. But I was running running for fitness and I was in London.

I was twenty one and I started I got up at like four thirty in the morning to do to do a run before work. It was like pitch black, freezing cold, I live next to a freeway.

It was awful and I was running and just being like, this is crap, you know, I'm not I'm not like a marathon runner immediately. Oh, my God. And I saw this giant billboard. I think it was like Johnnie Walker or some bad thing. But it it said that quote that says, A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. But, yeah, I agree with you that sometimes it's just about what can I do today? What one thing can I do? And then I can shut my laptop down and run the business tomorrow.

Yeah. And equally that it's OK to take a day off. And sometimes that is the best thing to do. I've had days I really struggle to do that. But but when I do sit back, that's often when the better ideas come to the surface. So yeah, I think being gentle to yourself is so important and something that I am still learning to do. But yeah, to take a day off, go and visit a gallery, get some perspective and some ideas, or just just spend the day sketching and without the pressure of this has to become something. You know, I think it's something that really struggle with is that creative brain with a business brain. And you can get so caught up in the need to do that. And then the the creative side can fall by the wayside. So, yeah, that's equally important. Probably more important.

Yeah. I could not agree more. And on that note, like you are figuring out the balance or the integration. Coco Flip is a very well known brand and it's very respected in the industry, in the design industry. But like you said, you have remained relatively small in terms of your team, and that's been intentional. Can you talk us through why you made that decision and also what it's meant in terms of what we just talked about, like taking time off or time management and having to be the person that worked so closely and following up with suppliers or following up with media or award ceremonies or those things. How has that all worked - being a small team?

Yeah, we were quite intentional about staying small from the beginning. And that is mainly, I think, because we really value relationships and lifestyle much more than business growth. So I mean, the world is pretty obsessed with growth and I've had to really teach myself to be OK with being a small business. I think that's often a bit of a stigma with small business that it's you know, the goal is always to grow and get more staff, higher turnover. Like, obviously the there's a turnover that's important, but that is not our first and foremost goal. So I'm much more interested in cultivating a life that I'm that I enjoy, that I'm proud of and surrounding myself with with people that I respect and admire and enjoy being around. So I can't imagine being a business owner with a huge team. I would find it personally very stressful. So we currently work. We have one staff member has and I and that's the really good scale for us. And it means that every every decision that is made is made with intention and for the right reasons. So I think it really it gives the brand longevity. And it's yeah, it just remains personal, which is has always been the idea.

Yeah, I completely agree. I've had many people over the years be like, why don't you just train people to do what you do and you can have a whole team and army. And I'm like, because I want to. Yeah, like big like, you know what? I'm just going to shut down for three days and it's just me and maybe another one wants to starting. But yeah, it's very slow. I agree with that. It's, it allows you to have a lifestyle that you want to have. Yeah. For sure. And especially I think this year would have been very tough. You know, many of my clients have had a lot of stuff that they've had to lay off or figure out how to keep and. Yeah, and perhaps maybe pivoting to do things that they didn't necessarily want to be doing to keep those staff in place, which is really admirable as well. But, yeah, I agree with you. I want that lifestyle first. Yeah. What is one thing that you would have done differently if you were just starting out now? If somebody listening to this and they're like, oh my gosh, I want to be like Coco Flip, are there any mistakes or anything that you would be like? You know, I wish I didn't do that. I would have done things differently. Would you keep it all the same?

It's so hard to say, because obviously when you start out, you don't know what you don't know, and I think naivety can be a huge strength when you're starting a business. It's probably wouldn't have done things the same now. But I think the way I did things meant that we could grow slowly and organically and that I didn't place too much pressure on being an instant success. So I think the one thing that with perspective now would have done differently is to take more risks. I'm not a huge risk taker, naturally, and I've always sort of played things very cautiously. So that's probably the main thing that I would change is that I would still still take everything into consideration. But I think taking more risks earlier on would have been probably more beneficial.

Yes, yes, I hear you on that as well, in terms of taking risks and being able to assess where things are at, obviously now 10 years in, there's not only your experience that comes with a decade running your own business, but also there's so many more platforms and so much more data now to be able to make those decisions than it was 10 years ago before we had social media and all sorts of other stuff. Do you have any platforms or tools that you just couldn't live without now when it comes to running your business?

Yeah, it's pretty remarkable when you think about how much that world has changed in 10 years, it's not a very it's not a huge amount of time, but there was no Instagram when we started. You know, I was doing all my accounting in an Excel spreadsheet and that sort of probably the scale of business that it was at the time. But zero has been a huge game changer for us in terms of bookkeeping. If someone took that away from the business now, I think we would collapse. I really don't know how how people work without cloud based accounting. It's it's just so amazing to get a forecast and say cash flow and just logistically with purchase orders and invoices and everything, it's it's an amazing tool. And we've probably been using that for about five years now. Shopify as well. It's probably quite a boring answer, but they just make a small business so easy to run, so accessible, and you can change things at the drop of a hat on a website, add new products. It's it's just so easy. So I think those those two platforms are probably the ones that we would struggle to live with that.

Yep. I am obviously not on Shopify, but so many of my clients absolutely swear by that platform. But I am on zero and I am Dennard with the whole zero thing.

And one of my good friends, Chris, actually said from the start start as you mean, to go and invest the whatever it is fifty dollars a month to have that platform working properly from the get go so that your money is taken care of because it's just such a huge part of running a business. The money has to be there or else you don't have a business.

Absolutely. Yeah, it's amazing.

So you have to sort through so many things that from the outside one could say, oh gosh, they must be really proud about that. But what are you most proud of from this journey of more than ten years now, owning and running Coco Flip?

I think that the two things that were probably most proud of the relationships that we've built and the products that we've made, and that might sound a little a little bit boastful, but we we don't put products out into the world that we're not 100 percent proud of. We would much prefer to release fewer products and have them the places that are going to last the test of time and still be around for people and hopefully passed through a generation. That's not about fast and easy. We just do things slowly and at our own pace and click open and was the first product we released and that that is now 10 years old and and still as relevant today as it was then. So I think we're really proud of that and we're really proud that we work with a lot of the same manufacturers that we did when we started out with a lot of the same stockists. And I think we've managed to stay true to our own values and just build that community along the way, which is what it's all about for us. And also showing showing my kids they coming to work with us sometimes and involving them and showing them that you can love your work. I think that's a really great thing to grow up knowing that you can find something that is that you're passionate about and that is not just a job. So, yeah, I'm proud of of all those things.

So really, really great things. And rightly, you should be proud. Thank you so much for sharing all of that. So what is what is next for you? What's next for Coco, Philip? And also, if people are listening to this and they're thinking, oh, my gosh, I just have to tell her that this really resonated with me, where is the best place that they can connect with you?

Yeah, sure, you can always reach out on Instagram about Handley's at Quico, Underscore Flip, and we we love to hear from people there in person. We love showing people around our north showroom's so you can make an appointment to come into our showroom through our website, which is cookoff dot com today. You and what's next for us is definitely looking forward to a summer holiday. As you know, it's been such a wild year for everyone and I think more than ever we really just appreciate all the little things in life. And it's just so glorious to see Melbourne springing back to life. So the thought of taking some time off and heading to the coast is just so, so great right now. And we've got we've got a lot of exciting things happening in twenty, twenty one as well with some new products in the works and some collaborations with some other brands as well, which is really exciting and will be part of an event for Melbourne Design Week at the end of March. So you've got lots to look forward to.

Oh, I am so looking forward to seeing what you come up with and also joining Will not joining you on your holiday.

That might be a bit, but Jeudy taking a holiday because, my God, everybody needs it right now. Yeah, they can. But thank you so much for coming on and sharing so many insights and tips and just being the lovely Kate that you are because you're always just so generous with your information and your knowledge.

Well, thanks, Fiona. It's been so nice to talk to you. Thanks for having me. No worries.

Oh, I absolutely love speaking to Kate. She is just such a down to earth, genuine, kind, generous, beautiful and intelligent person and I'm so glad that our paths crossed. She was so honest and giving in this interview and shared so much that I know that you would have taken away just as much as I did. I know that Kate would love for you to reach out and connect with her and let her know what resonated. And you can do that by going to Instagram there at @coco_flip. And of course, will add that in the show notes. You can also check out everything they're up to, including their journal with their Meet the Maker series at cocoflip.com.au For me personally, what I took away most from what Kate had to say were two things. One, that we're always learning. You don't get to sort of 10, 11 years in business and suddenly every single thing is sorted out and you know exactly what you're doing at all times. I love that she talked about I'm still learning certain elements and that the confidence is almost like a layer of kind of rock formation over time. But you get more confident the longer you go on with certain aspects. So I love that she shared, you know, not everything's perfect and that she's still learning as she goes. I think that's such an important lesson for us to hear, especially from people like Kate who are very well established, very well respected and regarded in the design industry to know that everybody has struggles, everybody has challenges that they come up against. Everybody wants some time off from time to time. So I absolutely love that she was so honest. And thank you again, Kate. The second thing I really, really enjoyed and and respected about Kate's journey is that she was open to just, you know, wandering into that shop and talking to them and saying, this is what I've done. This is my stuff. Would you like to look at it also sending that email out? You know, she I think that was really smart. She applied for a competition, but she also then contacted them and followed up with Hajjah in a stock, my staff. And I think that takes bravery and courage. But I also think it's something we don't do enough of because we're so programmed to expect the worst and to expect that they wouldn't want to hear from me or they only want established brands. And I think it's really admirable that she did that. And I think, you know, just as a huge learning lesson to anyone listening, that everyone people are just people, you know, why not just reach out to somebody if you've been thinking about it.

So thank you again so, so much, Kate, for coming on to the podcast. And like I mentioned, all the links that we talked about will be in the show notes and you can find them at mydailybusinesscoach.com/podcast/54 as this is episode 54. If you want to connect with Kate, you can do that at cocoflip.com.au today. You or you can find them on Instagram at @coco_flip. If you are keen to hear other interviews that I'm doing with small business owners, make sure you hit subscribe and you can of course go back through and binge on other interviews that I've done with small business owners. Thanks so much for listening. See you next time.

Thanks for listening to My Daily Business Coach podcast. If you want to get in touch, you can do that at mydailybusinesscoach.com or hit me up on Instagram at @mydailybusinesscoach.

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