Episode 6: Finding Awe, Manufacturing Overseas and More Business Tips from Phoebe Bell, founder, Sage x Clare
Time to get the notebooks out. In this interview episode, Phoebe Bell, founder of Sage x Clare, the much-loved Australian homewares and apparel brand, provides sooo many great tips for small business owners. From lessons learned manufacturing overseas in India, through how to move to a solutions-focused mindset when things seem overwhelming and why prioritising her health has helped her in business as well.
Phoebe gets super honest in this episode and provides a generous dose of advice, tips, tactics, humour and laughs.
Introducing Phoebe Bell 1:48
How Did Sage x Clare Start?
What Was Phoebe's Upbringing Like? [9:40]
What Is The Why Behind The Business? [14:12]
What Is It Like Doing Business Transactions in a Foreign Country? [18:11]
What Advice Would Phoebe Give Out To Anyone Who Would Like To Start A Business Involving Manufacturing Overseas? [21:55]
How Has Social Media Helped Sage x Clare? [27:22]
What were the negative experiences encountered in social media? [32:11]
What advice would Phoebe share to business owners who need to be 'out there'? [37:12]
Where to seek advice or mentorship from? [41:48]
How to Deal with Stress or Feeling Overwhelmed [46:06]
What would be Sage x Clare's legacy? [52:17]
Conclusion [53:25]
Resources mentioned in this episode:
My Daily Business Coach emails [44:11]
The Tim Ferriss Show [44:29]
Akimbo - Seth Godin podcast [44:47]
Sage x Clare website [53:41]
I find every day there are challenges and every month there are things that get thrown at you that you just are not anticipating. So I definitely try to accept a little bit more sometimes the position that I'm in and then I think there's something really powerful in accepting it. And then I kind of try to move to more of a solutions focused kind of mentality. So, okay, this is what it is and this is where I am. I don't necessarily want to be here, but this is where I am. And then what can I do to improve the situation from here? What can I do to learn from what's happening right now so that I don't land back here? And I think as soon as you get into a more solutions focused mindset, it's really empowering.
Welcome Phoebe, how’s 2020 going? I know it's been pretty stressful for a lot of us. We’ve had the bushfires. Your second baby is on the way, covid making its mark on the business? How are you feeling right now?
I don't think anyone really was fully prepared for what 2020 would bring. I knew some of the challenges, as you mentioned. I think I’m thirty five weeks pregnant now and I need a double hip replacement. So that's not particularly conducive.- those two things. So that's a little bit of a challenge. But yes. And I guess coronavirus has certainly been a challenge. So nothing's really gone to plan this year, but I don't think anyone else is any different. So it's just been challenging that’s both good as well. It's sort of made me get really creative and feel probably even more determined than ever at different moments to just keep what I feel alive and keep my team happy and keep everybody in jobs. And yeah, there's good parts and bad parts, I think to 2020. But it's certainly one that I don't think any of us will forget.
You are the founder of Sage and Clare and a lot of people know about your incredible business. What is Sage and Clare and when and how did it actually start? Was there a catalyst for you starting it? Did you have a background in homewares before?
No, I didn't. So Sage and Clare is a homewares and lifestyle brand. It’s really kind of celebrating the handmade and the colourful. So that's kind of always been the ethos of the brand. But it's funny, the catalyst was sort of not one thing that led me there particularly, but a whole bunch of different events and probably observing even things in my upbringing and things like that, that that led me to eventually do it. So I'd gone off to study. I was absolutely certain I was going to be a lawyer. So, off I went and did law, major in communications. And as I was nearing the end of those degrees, I kind of really wondered whether that was the right path for me. So that was a little bit of a tricky time because I spent six years studying and then kind of got to the end and really didn't feel that that was the right way for me to go. So, I was pretty lost, I'll admit. But I kind of really drilled down to thinking about what I just do out of passion and love. And I realised that a lot of that came down to kind of immersing myself in interiors and fashion and travel. I realised I was a really visual person. I never identified as someone that was creative, but I kind of thought that was what I gravitated toward. So I got a job as a stylist at a leading kind of fashion brand in Australia. And I thought that that was it. I thought I found my career and I was gonna be super happy doing that. But it wasn't quite the environment that I thought it would be. So it was quite a toxic environment. So back to the drawing board, I think, and realised as well throughout that process that maybe I needed more than just a creative outlet. I wanted to be able to utilise other parts of my skillset as well. Probably some of what I've learnt in law and major in communications. So, yeah, went off to India as well at this time. So I just went on a little trip to India, spent a Christmas over in India. That was a bit of a spontaneous trip. And my husband at the time over this asked, “Why don’t you just start a homewares business?” I was like, “Why? Why would I do that?” And he said, “Because you love it. It's like you love interiors and you love textiles and it lights you up. And I can see it when we're going through the markets. And so why don’t you just do that?” So I don't even know how he convinced me that that was some kind of good idea. But I came back, I quit my job. And within two months, I was back in India with pretty much not the faintest clue what I was doing, but had decided that I was going to start this brand called Sage and Clare.
Work is such a huge part of our lives. But What was your upbringing like? Were your parents into fashion or homewares or textiles? Were they super creative? Were they business owners?
Not really. I mean, my parents definitely kind of raised me to, I guess, as a lot of parents do, just raise me to think that I could kind of do whatever I wanted to. So I sort of had their blessing when I started. But no, there wasn't a kind of entrepreneurial upbringing or anything like that. They weren't in their own businesses at all. And probably followed largely quite normal career paths, I guess. But I think the thing that kind of resonated with me from my upbringing was that my mom, you know, before she had my sister and I, she had a good successful careers and at some parts of their life was really the breadwinner between my mom and my dad. And then when she had us, she kind of really took that back seat. So she raised us and she took many, many years off work and then worked part time to kind of work around what family life entails. So that was lovely. But as the years went on, they actually divorced and I realised the sacrifice that she made and just the position that she found herself in. Following that divorce and I realised that she didn't have a lot to fall back on, she suddenly was in a position where she had to kind of earn an income, but she didn't have a great career at that point. She didn't have a lot of, you know, really up-to-date skills and things like that because she'd really thrown herself into family life. So I think for me, that was something that I found really difficult to to watch and to see. And I kind of realised I don't I just don't really want to be in a position where I have to choose between work and kids. And I was really worried that if I went down a kind of traditional path that that would be really difficult for me to really love and be super driven and determined in my career as a lawyer, but also have the flexibility to be around for my kids. So it was in some strange way led me to kind of considering what life would be like if if I had my own business.
In times when financial gain wasn't a key motivator (probably it still isn't the key motivator) what is the why behind your business? So when you started it, what has kept you going even in times when it's been a bit tough?
I've been reading a book called Phosphorescence, which is about, I guess, moments of awe. So, it's about finding kind of awe-inspiring moments. And not to sound really cheesy, but I think that is what's kept me going. And that's really the why behind Sage and Clare. When I experience beauty and it can take many different forms, when I see something that's beautiful, it actually has a sort of physical impact on me. Like I kind of sometimes get a bit breathless and my heart starts racing a little bit. And it's just this kind of moment of just the sort of like pang of inspiration. And there's so many different places to experience that. But I think for me, that's always the why behind Sage and Clare, I want to give people possibly that experience. Obviously, beauty is different for every person. But if you know one or two or ten people kind of stumble across what we do and the products that we make and the way that we put that together and have that kind of moment of just appreciation for that, I think that's really special, even though it's just a visual kind of fleeting. experience that's kind of kept me really focused on what we do and making sure that what I bring to the world might inspire people. That that sort of it sounds really corny, but that's honestly the truth of it.
You have spent a lot of time in India for your business. What’s it been like being a foreigner in India trying to get things made and perhaps? What are cultural barriers or language barriers? What's that been like for you?
India holds a really special place in my heart. I feel like it's kind of in many ways totally changed the course of my life. So there's a lot of awe-inspiring moments in India, but there's also a lot of pretty challenging moments. It's not a place that I think you can travel to and not come back kind of unchanged in some way. It really triggers different things in people. I’ve seen it with countless people that I've been with. And when I go, you kind of have certainly some tricky moments and some moments where they're really quite confronting. But I kind of love it for that as well. It just like moves you right out of your comfort zone. And I think that's quite hard to find normal these days. So I kind of do love that side of it. I've spent a lot of time. And so I think when I started and when we first went there, I'd be there for kind of two to three months at a time because I felt the need to really be there to fully immerse myself in what I was doing because I just had no idea what I was doing. I had no connection. I had absolutely no idea how to go about finding supplies. I had no idea how to export goods out of India. I didn't even really understand the process of how textiles were made. So that's been a real journey. Every time I go, I learn a whole lot more. And it is interesting because I guess everything all the assumptions that we make here about how business is done or business custom or how women might be treated or how men might be treated, you know, it's all just flipped on its head when you go there. So, like, I, I remember many times at the start because I didn't really have a business necessarily like I was starting a business, but I had absolutely nothing to stand behind. And I often have to get my husband on the phone while I had meetings with them face to face. So my husband back in Australia, because otherwise I just wasn't taken seriously. So there's been always a lot of creative ways to kind of navigate the differences. But I think as well, like I mean, I've been going eight years now and. It's still just a place that absolutely mystifies me. And I don't think I'll ever fully make sense of it.
A lot of people in Australia do get their products from all over the world. Made in another country. You have been doing this for eight years, so, what kind of advice would you give to someone else who's listening to this? Is there any kind of key tips or advice you'd give out?
I mean, there's so much research and discovery that you can do online, but it's also fraught with a whole lot of risk. I think you don't need to kind of look far to find and hear about people that are being scammed and that there's so many different things that can happen. So I can't even stress how important it is to go there. It's just both to kind of understand where it is that you're looking to produce, to understand how they work. You might be tossing out between a few different suppliers. And nothing can really beat just going there and meeting them yourself and being shown around and asked to see all the different components of that business, of that supplier. So I think that's kind of number one I often hear people who start businesses and they’ve never, ever been over to their supplier. I think there's a lot of importance and a lot of benefit to going and really seeing who it is it's making use your goods. So that would be number one. And there's also lots of trade fairs and things like that in a lot of these countries. So I didn't actually know that when I started. So I was literally almost walking the streets trying to find different suppliers in different parts of India. But there are trade fairs and there are places that you can go now that can help you maybe make those first connections and contacts. And then from there, you can actually go visit them in where they make those things. And then, I mean, I spent months at a time there initially because I really wanted to be across that production process, because I found as soon as I left, things just kind of fell apart a little bit. So since then, obviously, that's not really super realistic anymore. But I have a team in India. So, again, I'd make sure that you have someone on the ground that can be kind of checking the progress, checking the quality control, making sure that things are being made, as you specified, because there's a lot that can happen from the moment you submit a design to when it arrives on your doorstep. And my experience when there hasn't been those checks and someone on the ground is that you can get something very different to what you anticipated. And even with people that you sometimes get things, you know, quite different. So, yeah, I think it's quite important to find someone to advocate for you, really someone to really push forward what it is that you want to have made, make sure that it's made the way that you specified it. Make sure that it's produced to the right quality. Make sure that the timelines emit. There's a lot of different components of what you need to consider, but you really just need an advocate, I think. And then and this is probably most important, I think, you've just got to trust your instincts. I've definitely been to different suppliers who everything's shiny and fantastic and it looks really professional. But I've just had this weird gut feel, and it's amazing how many times various things have happened that have proven me right in that instance. And it's when you're trying to set up manufacturing overseas, you know, maybe if you're lucky, you've got someone who has some experience with them and can vouch for that manufacturer. But I didn't have that. Most businesses would never tell you who manufactures their goods. So you really just have your own gut to go by and at some point you've got to just type that leap of faith. But the best thing you can do, I think, is just listen to those instincts. And if it's just screaming out like, no, this is wrong, then just walk away.
Social media is obviously a major marketing avenue for you. Did you get help from an agency in growing your audience on platforms like IG, or did you do this yourself? Can you talk through some of the really good things that have happened on social media and then some of the maybe not so great things because there is this love hate relationship?
I didn't have any help or anything like that, I didn't engage an agency. It sort of has just been a very, I guess, organic part of the business. I've done it myself up until about a year ago. So, but I started out just posting to probably nobody. Like, I got celebrated, I got 10 locks. But I guess with discipline, you know, I did post frequently. I just kind of felt that that was I mean, at the at the time, particularly starting, there was no kind of marketing or advertising budget. So that was really this kind of amazing lifeline, I think. I know social media gets a bad rap, but I think people forget to talk about actually how amazing that is, because the whole way through my brand journey at least had this opportunity to just talk to our customer without having kind of an agency or having to engage different people and spend big budgets on connecting with them by other means. So I think we're really lucky, actually, to live in a time like we do - where there’s that opportunity and it's essentially free. I just I just kind of plodded along, just did my thing initially at the start, I was really embarrassed at how well and like, you know, I mean you kind of land on the scene and you say, “Yeah, I have a business”, but like at what point does something become a business? I don't really know. So Sage and Clare was just something, I was just doing out of home. I had stock in our garage. I had stuff all over a house. There was nothing kind of particularly professional about it. So I started out almost pretending like it was bigger than it was. So I always say, “We…” and, you know, people would sometimes contact me and say, “Can I come and look at something in person?” and I’d freak out. Like, I just operate this out of my garage. But then I think as time went on, I kind of realised, hang on a minute. Big businesses have to say “We…” and “Our…” and there's not really an understanding of who is behind that brand necessarily. But that's not me. And maybe that's actually a gift that that's not me. So maybe I should actually just start talking a little bit more authentically and talk about who I am and my beliefs and things and the fact that it is a really small business. So, yeah I sort of pivoted, I guess, somewhere along the line pretty early on and started to recognise that there might be some connection there with my audience. They might actually like to know those things. And then it's really grown very organically from there. And then it was only as I said about a year ago, that I realised this is like a lot for me to do on my own every day. So as a business owner, you have a million other things that you need to look at as well. So I was literally doing social media every spare moment of my kind of outside of work hours times. So it was always done in family time. So I did sort of bring it in house. And so I'm still a really big part of it. But I have a lovely social media manager, Kelly, who manages a lot of it now, which is amazing. And yeah, we did engage an agency about 18 months ago as well to look at our paid ads. So that's also been great because that's not kind of our organic strategy. But they take care of our paid advertising across Facebook and Instagram and monitor that because I that second another mind field altogether, which I don't know a lot about. So I figure let's just allow an expert to do that rather than just throwing money down the drain basically.
Have you had any kind of negative experiences on social media? How has it helped or hindered you? Do you think the negative experiences such as having copycats are just going to happen regardless?
There is a vulnerability to social media for sure. I still feel that. And like, I guess then the more following you grow as well, the more people you open yourself up to. So, yeah, like for sure, I've had plenty of negative commentary on there. I always used to check it incessantly because I'd feel like, oh, my God, what if someone puts a negative comment up and then someone else sees it and then they get on the bandwagon? Because that's definitely happened to me before. So I think sometimes there's a little bit of a moment in social media, which scares me a little bit. You know, you can kind of put something innocent up and then if you're not kind of checking regularly, you can log back on a few hours later. And this has happened to me. And you just kind of inundated with this sort of barrage of negativity. And it's often some of it's fair, but often in my experience, it's been actually quite a misunderstanding. So that's always a little bit challenging enough. I've definitely over the years felt really probably a little bit fearful and a little bit vulnerable of those things happening. And then there's other things. Sometimes it's not a particularly positive comment, but it is good feedback. Like, for instance, we launched apparel recently and, you know, we're a really pretty small business. Never done apparel. We had these kind of minimum order quantities that we had to do. So we just released it in four sizes because that was really all I could manage to do. But as a result of that, we've offended a part of the market who really don't feel like that was a very inclusive size range, for instance. So in that instance, you get that feedback on social media. It's really good to get that feedback. And I never mind reading that. And I think it's great. And I'm very kind of thankful to our audience for giving that feedback. But there's always that line where you just hope that it doesn't go into this kind of mob mentality where something that you've done wave on in. It's been very unintended in terms of causing any offence. And you've done it because you're restrained by particular things and be taken out of context and can be taken to mean something else. So I think that's always a bit of a challenge with social media to kind of hear what people are telling you, but also put forward the intention behind what it is that you're trying to say or do.
Do you have advice for people who are in business who know they need to get themselves out there a bit more but they're finding it quite daunting?
I can definitely appreciate how daunting it is and even still like I mean, it might seem like I’m really comfortable, but even still, I find it really daunting at times. I think I definitely agree with all of your advice. I think that that is one of the absolute beauties of small business. And if you have the ability to tell a story, then tell that story and connect, because that's actually what's going to set you apart from all of those brands that really don't have that ability to do that. So that's like your kind of secret weapon, I think, which I definitely identified probably quite early on. That's not to say that the reality of that was easy in terms of being the face. I mean, even being in the photo shoots like that, that sort of really quite organically came about in a way like I was on a photo shoot and our photographer would say, “Just stay there. That looks really good where you are.” And I was like, “What?” And he says, “No, trust me, it's fine.” I was just thinking, what are you like, what are you doing. And then the next thing I know for a lot of the photo shoots, I've kind of been in them, which is very much out of my comfort zone, not really something that I ever kind of intended on doing. But I think what I always come back to with whether to put yourself out there or not is like I think I'd always prefer to say something or stand for something or have an opinion or all of that. I think I'd always prefer to take that road than just not to do anything or say anything at all. So that sort of propels me forward. I think it makes me go well, OK. Like, I might be ridiculed for these. People might say X, Y, Z about me doing this. But actually at the end of the day, at least on prepared to put myself out there and get out of my comfort zone. And I prefer do that every day of the week than not, and then possibly just kind of stay stagnant and not and just not say anything.
You've been in this business for a long time now. Where do you seek advice or mentorship or do you have a business coach? Do you have podcasts or books or websites? Who helps you with your business journeys? Is there anything you could recommend to others?
I guess probably across like the life cycle of my business, since it sort of changed a little bit, I felt like at the start I didn't I didn't really have a lot of that guidance or assistance, like it was a little bit tricky. But I I think one just building some sort of small business network around you. Like, for instance, you and I are in a book club that we can have a conversation about our businesses. We have very different businesses. But I think having people around you that maybe are in small business, it doesn't need to be the same, that there's so many similar challenges. So that's been really helpful. I've definitely connected with people and probably more and more have been able to do that. And like I find that really helpful and cathartic, even if I'm not necessarily pulling out any tangible “Oh, I've got to go run off and do that.” It's just it's just helpful. It's sometimes a really solitary existence when you even if you have a team, when you run a business. So I think to be able to find that community of other business owners is important. And then I haven't had kind of specific mentors or I haven't kind of sort anyone out as a formal mentor. But about 18 months ago, I actually got a life coach. So that's been really helpful for me as well, because some of the challenges I guess, you have as a business is it is a lot to do with mindset. Yes. So that's been really helpful. It helps me kind of navigate where the real limitations are possibly and where the limitations that are set by me and my mindset and possibly how that's impacting my path. So that's been quite an important addition, I think, to my strategy and making sure that I haven't really healthy mindset and I'm not kind of sabotaging different things or I'm not limiting myself or my business because of maybe some beliefs that I have. So that's yeah, that would be another area. And then. Well, it's going to sound like I'm plugging you, Fiona, but I absolutely love your Sunday night emails like, there's so many things like that. There's books and there's podcasts and like this one. I find podcasts really good. I've sort of got a few saved, like I've got The Tim Ferriss Show, which is pretty fascinating. And he's sort of like my marketing god. Seth Gordon, who has a podcast called Akimbo. I just absolutely love that. We're so lucky. There's so many resources. There's so many books. And as I said, like your email, this podcast. There are so many resources. I think we're kind of in a really interesting time in terms of celebrating entrepreneurs and small business and people having a go.
Do you have advice for people who are in business right now who are feeling really stress, whether by manufacturing problems, by staff challenges, or if just by themselves and they've got a lot of work on their plate? Do you have advice to someone who's feeling stressed or overwhelmed right now?
Yes. I don't know if I'm like the best person to give advice because I'm certainly not the poster child for, like, someone that's necessarily looked after themselves particularly well. What probably what you see has been, I would say in the last 18 months or two years, been a conscious change that I've had to make, because prior to that I worked and worked and worked, and it was really unsustainable, and I didn't get to a point of burn out, but I definitely tattered on the edge, I'd say. And I think other parts of my life really suffered because I'm just like a very passionate, driven, single-focused girl at times. So, if I'm working on something like I'm working on it and I dedicate everything to that, which is great. But I think over a long-term period, you know, we're talking about kind of five, six, seven years, that's not always sustainable. And I think in terms of probably what I've learnt and maybe how I've changed a little bit in myself is I think if you have a small business, you actually have to learn to be flexible. Like, you cannot just get fixed on any particular outcome. And I mean, what we're going through at the moment couldn't be any more real. An example of that. I’m just kind of so glad that I've learnt to a large extent that ability to just it's not that things don't get to me. They do. And it's when things don't turn out like I want them to. And things are not tracking along like I want. That's hard. But I just kind of let that wash over me. I sort of accept to some extent that that is the way that it is, rather than trying to force it to be some other way. Yeah, I've got a friend who says. “Be like water”. I think you have got to be when it comes to business. If you get too fixated on outcomes, whether it's in a coronavirus time or not, that's going to cause you so much stress, because that's just I find that every day there are challenges and every month there are things that get thrown at you that you just are not anticipating. So I definitely try to accept a little bit more - sometimes the position that I'm in and then I think there's something really powerful in accepting it. And then I kind of try to move to more of a solutions-focused kind of mentality, so, “OK, this is what it is, and this is where I am.” I don't necessarily want to be here, but this is where I am. And then what can I do to improve the situation from here? What can I do to learn from what's happening right now so that I don't land back here? And I think as soon as you get into a more solutions-focused mindset, it's really empowering because you can actually just continue moving ahead.
What legacy do you want this business to have?
That's a really tough one, actually. I'd love it if Sage and Clare was around in 20 years and we were still just kind of bringing that sort of beautiful, handmade, joyful, colourful kind of product to people's homes and lives. I don't have any grand kind of plans. Like “Oh, I want to expand here and I want to do this. I want to be the biggest.” You know, I think I just really want to stay very true to what the ethos of the brand is. And I would just love it if we would just here in 20 years, still doing what we do and still with an audience that absolutely loves what Sage and Clare brings to the world. That would be an amazing result, I think. I'd be really proud of that legacy if that if that was what I could do.
What's next? And where can people connect with you? Where can they come and see you all over your social media and chat with you? Where is the best kind of place for people to connect with Sage x Clare and Phoebe Bell?
Well, you can jump on my website, which is just sageandclare.com. You can shoot me an email. I love getting emails and hearing from people, so email me at hello@sageandclare.com. Social media - that's probably where I have quite a lot of my discussions with people, so particularly on Instagram (@sageandclare). I've even kind of put myself out there even more lately and I’ve been doing these kind of live. I say that like I’ve been doing heaps of it and I've got another one this week. Yeah, kind of doing live IGTV with a little series, so, you know, you could always pop on there and ask me a question. But I'd love to hear from anyone if anyone's got anything they want to ask.
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I'd love to know, like I said, what stood out most to you. So please let me know by tagging @mydailybusinesscoach if you share this podcast episode or sending me a D.M. on Instagram. As always, you can grab the show notes and read through the transcript of this episode over at mydailybusinesscoach.com/podcast/6. As in the numeral six, because this is episode six.
And thank you so much again, Phoebe, for coming on to My Daily Business Coach podcast. And thank you for tuning in.
If you enjoyed this episode, I would love it if you could leave a review on iTunes that will help us get found by other small business owners who hopefully will find it useful, too. Lastly, please make sure you subscribe to get access to future interviews as well as tips and coaching sessions that I share here at my Daily Business Coach podcast. Thanks.
Thanks for listening to My Daily Business Coach podcast. If you want to get in touch, you can do that at mydailybusinesscoach.com or hit me up on Instagram - @mydailybusinesscoach.
You can connect with Phoebe via the online Sage x Clare store or over on IG @sageandclare
If you enjoyed this episode, I would love it if you could leave a review on iTunes that will help us get found by other small business owners who hopefully will find it useful, too. Lastly, please make sure you subscribe to get access to future interviews as well as tips and coaching sessions that I share here at my Daily Business Coach podcast. Thanks.
Thanks for listening to My Daily Business Coach podcast. If you want to get in touch, you can do that at mydailybusinesscoach.com or hit me up on Instagram - @mydailybusinesscoach.
