Episode 182: Understanding what customer you're targeting and Influencer Marketing with Danielle Lewis of Scrunch
Are you thinking of doing Influencer Marketing? In today's episode, Fiona talks to Danielle Lewis of Scrunch about an effective marketing strategy and how to find the perfect influencer who have followers in your customer base. Tune in!
Topics discussed in this episode:
Introduction
Why Danielle started Scrunch
On Sales and Wine
Influencer Marketing in 2022
One-off post versus an ambassador role
Danielle's tips for pitching and selling
Conclusion
Get in touch with My Daily Business Coach
Resources and Recommendations mentioned in this episode:
Danielle Lewis
Kim Kardashian
Tim Ferris
Amy Porterfield
Gary Van Chuck
Robert Frost
Levi
Sally
Felicity Rogers
The biggest lesson that we've learned. And one that's rung true for years is that you really do need to understand what customer you're targeting. So influencers are obviously followed by lots of people, but not all of those people will be your customer. So what you need to do is figure out the influencers who have the majority of them, who are in your customer base. And that will give you the likelihood of connecting with buying as well.
Hello and welcome to episode 182 of the My Daily Business Coach podcast. If you are joining me for the first time. Welcome. And if you are somebody who regularly listens to this, thank you for giving up your time to come and spend some time with me. So today it is a small business interview, and if you have ever considered influencer marketing, then you are gonna wanna pause this for a second. Go grab a notebook, open your notes up, whatever it is because today's guest is an absolute guru in this space. And before we get stuck into today's interview with this said guru, I want to pay my respects to the traditional owners and custodians of this beautiful, beautiful land in which I live and record this podcast, the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation, and I pay my respects to their elders past present and emerging and acknowledge that sovereignty has never been ceded. And I also welcome and pay my respects to any other indigenous people who might be tuning in to today's episode. Welcome, and thank you for joining us. So, as I mentioned today, it is a small business interview. It's with an influencer marketing guru and someone who just has incredible knowledge when it comes to selling, getting your ideas out there, and just making things happen. So let's get stuck into it.
All right. So to give you a little bit of background years ago, I lived in the UK. I had been there for four years. I came back and I worked at a digital agency here in Melbourne, and I was starting to do sort of workshops with this agency on some of the stuff that I'd done in the UK, but it was really kind of, I had maybe to go back one step further. I had really wanted to go out on my own when I came back to Australia, but I'd been offered this job and I thought, cool. You know, let's go for it. And so in that role, part of the job was to kind of create this new content and audience engagement. That's what it was called at the time, audience engagement arm. And part of that was to work with founders and brands that were kind of coming up and do these workshops on what we really like, how would we engage your audience and what sort of content would we need to put out there?
And what does the brand look like and where is it going? And all these sorts of things. And one of the very first companies to book in one of those workshops was Scrunch. And I'm actually talking to Danielle Lewis, the CEO, and co-founder of Scrunch today. So Scrunch is a technology platform that connects influencers with brands. And the technology really allows companies to identify which influencers are gonna land their promotional efforts. It's really looking at the result, what are you actually getting from these people? And is it sales? Is it brand awareness? What is it? And how can you actually track that? And one of the other incredible things about Scrunch is that it is a place to even find these people. So I know that when people are looking at influencer marketing, quite often we can just think of the big kind of rags or the big sort of Kim Kardashian or those kinds of people.
But we forget that there are micro influencers everywhere. There are huge influencers as well. And some of the people we've never heard of, I know that when I've consulted to say beauty companies and consulted big companies, like L'Oreal some of the influencers that they've talked about, I'm like, I have no idea who these people are and then I'll go and have a look. And they're like 5 million followers. And there are just influencers in every single space. And I love that Scrunch is one of the best platforms to find the right people for your brand. And even just tell you what influencer marketing is, I know sometimes people throw that idea around without actually knowing what it is. So I needed to get Danielle to come onto the podcast and talk about this concept, like this whole business that she's been running for a long time now with a whole incredible team of people as well, but how did they come up with it?
And how did it actually happen? I mean, a lot of us have ideas. Where Danielle came from, she had a successful blog, which is still going, I think Brisbane Threads, which was all about fashion and lifestyle and kind of the culture and arts community in Brisbane, which is in Queensland in Australia. But I don't believe that she had this huge tech background behind her, yet she had this idea, she worked on it with a partner and brought it to life. And now it is one of the most recognized influencers of marketing platforms out there. So I wanted to get Danielle on to talk about not only how they come up with this, she's an incredible salesperson. She also has a really great business called Sales and Wine. And she talks about that as well. But how do you go from influencer marketing, being a very unknown thing to having to kind of sell that to people, but then having a platform now that is working with so many other platforms that are out there as well.
And I wanted to ask her if influencer marketing is still a thing. If we are looking at our businesses in 2022 and beyond, should we be looking at influencer marketing and why should we be looking at it, especially as small business owners. So in today's interview, we talk about all of this and more. Danielle is one of those people that is just veracious, full of life, full of energy. You can't help, but get excited about whatever it is that she is talking about. And it was my absolute pleasure to bring her on. So here it is my interview with the CEO and co-founder of Scrunch and the founder of Sales and Wine, Danielle Lewis.
Hello, Danielle, welcome to the podcast after a long time between chats.
I know I was just thinking this morning, it hasn't been like a decade. It's insane, but I'm so excited to be here and, and reconnecting. It's awesome.
Yes, me too. And I'll get to that in a second, but you are now in WA, Western Australia and that's pretty massive. So Let's talk about that because you were in Brisbane, I actually thought you were still in Brisbane. You were just holidaying there, but you've made a massive move.
I know it’s literally just happened. So my partner and I relocated to WA literally on boxing day because we needed to do the border closures and we did our two weeks quarantine and now we are WA residents and we are literally bringing the work from anywhere model into reality because I'm working from actually a small country town called Coolgardie. Connecting with my team who is literally all over the planet. So it's a huge move. But interestingly, my day to day seems to be exactly the same.
And had you been to WA before?
Look I had, so both my mom and dad and my brother and his wife lived in WA for the last five years. So I'd come over. Yeah. So I'd come up to all working over here and I'd come over to visit, gone to amazing places like Perth and Margaret river, never been to Coolgardie until now, which was a little bit of a lifestyle shock, but it's fabulous. And my parents actually moved back to Brisbane literally a month before I left. So you can imagine my mother was not very happy about that.
You're literally on opposite sides of the country.
We are, it's insane. And getting used to the time difference and, and making sure, you know, you connect back in with everyone. So it's been very interesting.
And I of course follow you on social media. And I saw that you got engaged and I think is that actually during quarantine, were you guys?
It was literally Christmas Eve. So two nights before quarantine started.
I thought it was during quarantine.
I know. I mean an interesting way to spend your first two weeks of being engaged is going into quarantine. It's like, now this is a real test.
It is.
Yeah, no, it's super exciting though. And yeah, we are the kind of couple that moves to the middle of nowhere. So a good pressure test for a relationship, but loving it, very exciting.
I love that. And so in the intro, just now I talked about your businesses and kind of how we met and everything and we met way back and I was saying, I thought it might have been eight years, but I actually think it's like, how long have you had Scrunch for how old is the business?
Well, I think it is technically 10 years now, so we probably did meet about eight years ago. Cause I know it was in the early days of Scrunch.
Yeah. Cause we did a workshop and that was back when I was working at a digital agency and I left there, I think 2014. So long ago, but for people who are not familiar with Scrunch, I have to say all my clients are because I'm constantly mentioning it to them. Can you describe what it is and why? And well you've talked about when, but like why you started this.
Yeah, absolutely. So Scrunch as it is, today is a global analytics and education platform for influencer marketing. So it's a software platform that allows brands and agencies to find influencers. So we've got 20 million influencers from a whole bunch of social channels. Essentially the platform makes it super quick and easy to find the influencers, to assess their analytics, manage a campaign and then report on the campaign. So the reason we created it is because influencer marketing is one of the craziest marketing channels because it's completely unregulated and there are so many different advertising channels like Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, blogs, it's kind of like there is no standard for influencer marketing. So we've really tried to pioneer the way that people look at data on round influencers and take people on how to run really effective influencer campaigns as well, which we do through our Scrunch university, which is inside the software platform as well. But we didn't actually always start out as an influencer, which you would know from our initial workshop, we have literally pivoted the Scrunch business, I think like six times. But the influencer platform is really what stuck. It was kind of in our business journey, the time at which we had the right team, the right idea, and the market was ready for a platform like Scrunch. And that's when all of the puzzle pieces finally fell together and people started paying us for what we do. And haven't looked back from there.
And someone who's listening who may not have ever heard of the term influencer marketing. Obviously, most people would have influencers. What is it?
Yeah, basically it is using a person or an individual who has some level of influence. And today we associate influence with their number of followers or their credibility in an industry. So basically leveraging those people to share your brand message with a potential audience. And the reason I love influencer marketing is because you can use it for so many different strategies. So influencers aren't always the shiny pretty girl on Instagram. Who's a lifestyle blogger, oftentimes they can be everyday people, we call them nano influencers who might have just a couple of thousand followers, but they really connect with the people and engage with the people who follow them as experts or are amazing as well. So, people who don't even think that they're influencers like doctors or nutritionists or therapists or anyone, that's kind of an expert in their field, who's built up a bit of a following they're influencers now. So it's really, and then, of course, you've got your celebrities and, and people with millions of followers that you can definitely tap into, but, the way an influencer looks and what channel they're on is really different now it's not all just the Instagram sponsored post. So it's a really exciting industry to be a part of.
Yeah. Huge. And I love that you say it's the people who forget the word because it's like the term influencer has been so connected with what you just said, like the pretty, whatever, it's about influencing. That's what you're looking for. The people are influencing.
Exactly. And it's sort of funny. I kind of always say it's like when influencer marketing came out, people kinda lost their mind, but it's just another marketing strategy. So we always say, you've really gotta understand who your ideal customers are first and where they hang out online, and only then do you look for influencers? You don't look for influencers first. You really try to figure out where your customer is and who your customers are following. And that should actually lead you towards your influencer.
I love that. I'm sure there'll be lots of people now being like, “Oh my gosh, let's look at our customers.”
Oh, good, good.
I know because I have literally watched your career in, in your businesses, like flourish and change and everything. And you are just somebody that I believe from the outset just super goes for it. You're like, I've got this idea, and then bam, there's a business. I mean, I know you’ve done lots of work behind the scenes as well, but you have been in a tech and innovation space for ages. Like I know even when, before we did that workshop years and years ago, you had already created, if I'm correct, I might not have got this to correct my memory, but like a virtual or like some sort of change room app or something. Was that what you had done? And, and like, how did you, how did you even come up with that? Cause you must have been so young. You're still young now.
I don't feel young anymore. So actually the virtual change room was the first inner ratio of Scrunch. So Scrunch actually was a virtual change in fashion, a digital discovery platform for fashion, a social media monitoring tool, an inventory solution. It was like four different things before we landed on an influencer marketing platform. But it has been interesting, whilst they, that seems like, for totally different things, there were kind, always a natural evolution and maybe that ability to jump and change finally paid off when we lend it on the influencers stuff.
And not just Scrunch the other business that I wanted to talk about in today’s podcast is Sales and Wine cuz you started not just that, but another one, which I dunno if you wanna talk about that other one. But you started two businesses during COVID in addition to a huge business as it stands already. So how did those come about and how did you act on them so fast? Cause I know that there are people listening who may not be in a business yet and have got this idea and maybe it's been sitting on the back burner for like five years. So with the hand sanitizer business, I remember like you just, you seem to come out with that out of nowhere and like so quickly off the mark is how did that happen?
Yeah. And I mean, it's really interesting because yes we did. So essentially what happened is obviously in 2020 Scrunch was affected by I guess the market trepidation, just like anybody else was. And so being in advertising, a lot of people pulled their advertising budgets in the early days of COVID. Fortunately, they realized they have to keep advertising. So all is good now, but we kinda went, “Okay, what are we gonna do?” We've gotta do something. And it was actually my co-founder at the time we sat down and we said what are we gonna do? And I actually made a joke and I was like, “well, you should be in the bloody kitchen, cooking up hands sanitizer.” And it was really interesting because whilst it seemed like to move and it was super quick to move when we reflect on it, it was actually the buildup of everything that we had worked to date.
So not only did we have the knowledge, but we had the networks to make things happen as well. So when it came to you kind of, I guess your first business is you make every mistake on the planet and it's that 10 years to overnight success, Scrunch has been around for a decade. So we had that under our belt before we launched the answer. So we literally sat down and it was this crazy huge day where we went, right. We need to call every person we know in this area, we need to call every person in this area, we need to source this. We need to learn this. We need to build a website. We need to create a brand, but we had all of those people around us that we could kinda tap into and bring it to life really, really quickly.
And it was awesome. It was actually, I actually look back on it really fondly because as a sales and marketing per it actually also gave me the ability to have a physical product and an e-commerce brand that we could actually experiment with. When you're working with clients, sometimes you're a little bit limited in terms of what risks you can take and how you can experiment with marketing strategies. But cause we had our own physical product. It actually let us learn and come to do all of the things that we wished we could do with clients' brands. So that business has since been sold, which is also fabulous. I didn't need another business in my life. So, and that's kinda in development with that new business owner. So that's actually going to be relaunching soon with them. We're kind of working with them to get that all back off the ground.
So, it was a really awesome experience and then Sales and Wine, which is the other business that I launched. That was because I had two weeks off over Christmas last year. And once you sit still the ideas flow, but it was something that I'd been percolating on again for a long time. And it was just when I gave myself, well the space to have to time off that I kinda went, you know what, it's something that I'm so passionate about. I really wanna get it happening. So essentially Sales and Wine is sales courses and coaching for startup founders, business owners, freelancers, essentially I've been in sales my entire life. So I absolutely love it. I absolutely love talking to people. I've done every kind of sales you can think of like enterprise wholesale, e-commerce startups, corporate. And I always noticed that every sales course and every sales training I've ever taken is so boring to start with always delivered by an old white American dude.
And I was like, seriously, it doesn't have to be like this. And when I came into Scrunch, I took on the sales role and it was really an opportunity for me to carve out the way I believe in sales and what I do. So I created this sell-like human philosophy, which is exactly how I sell and courses around it for founders who potentially don't wanna be the salesperson for their business, but kinda when you're the founder, you do find yourself in that sales role. So it's really empowering people with kinda the tips and tricks that they need to create a sales process inside their business without it like crap.
And so what has been like, who sort of, is it all startup founders? Like I know you said it's for lots of people, but who's sort of taking it at the moment and, and who would it, like, I know you literally have just said this like founders, but who would really benefit from it and what sort of things do you think are different in it to the usual sales stuff that you could find online? I guess?
So it's really for people who are early in their sales career. So if you are a founder of a business who is just starting out lots of times, you're kind of, you are literally doing that. You're Googling, how do I grow sales? How do I create a sales strategy? How do I create a marketing strategy? And you're kind of learning from scratch. So essentially this is kind of recognizing that you are probably as a business owner going to have some blocks around selling your product. Lots of business owners feel like they shouldn't be selling and that selling is run, but we really try and connect with those business owners because they're solving a problem. So you wouldn't have created a business if you weren't really a good person and trying to change people's lives. So the Sales and Wine courses really start there and sort of acknowledging that you aren't adding value and solving a problem. So you really doing well in this service, if you don't sell your product and tell people about your product and then it really aims to put structure around sales. So help people understand who their ideal customer is, how to talk about their product or service really succinctly and create a unique selling proposition, and then how to create a process. The biggest thing is as a business owner or a startup founder, you are wearing so many hats and there are times that we can’t remember anything, every sale, every person's name, so we help people create a process so they don’t lose their mind in the process of growing sales.
Amazing. Sounds really good. And I love the name, Sales and Wine.
Absolutely. I had to bring a bit of fun to it.
And so let's talk about influencers and kinda shift a bit. I'm gonna go back to sales in a second though. I have some more questions around that, but you are the super guru at influencers marketing, and you've been in that space for a long time. How has the relationship between brands and these influencers changed? And I know you talked about before, like these nano influencers and like doctors and different types of influencers, but I guess what sort of things, if someone's listening and they're like, this is the year 2022. We are finally gonna work with some influencers. What should they be looking for when they're choosing people to with, and also if I can just add another question, cuz I'm always at doing this, sorry, Danielle, I'm always like another question, but, what should they be looking for? But also I get this question all the time. Do influencers still work it's 2022? So if you can answer kind of, both of those would be great.
Yeah, absolutely. So it's really interesting. So obviously I've been in influencer marketing for a long time before it was called influencer marketing. It was flogging back in the day and, and the relation and it sort of strikes me as odd because I feel like it's like social media, you think social media is old, but there was a time where it was sort of brand new for everyone and people had no idea what they were doing. Influencer marketing is still kind of going through that transition phase where I think it's old and that everyone should know about influence marketing, but they still don't really teach it at university and are still learning it on the go. And so it is interesting because there's really a divide in brands and agencies who get it and are starting to scale programs and then people who are still kind of dabbling and experimenting and kind of getting it wrong and feeling like it's still a waste of money.
So there's still so much work to be done within influencer marketing. But the biggest lesson that we've learned and one that's rung true for years is that you really do need to understand what customer you're targeting. So influencers are obviously followed by lots of people, but not all of those people will be your customer. So what you need to do is figure out the influencers who have the majority of their followers, who are in your customer base, and that will give you the most likelihood of connecting with them and hopefully one day buying your product as well. So making sure that whether you use Scrunch, which is obviously a tool that does this in seconds, or whether you just reach out to the influencer and ask them for a screenshot of their analytics, whatever you do. I always suggest don't spend money on influencer marketing without having verified that that influencer has the audience that you're trying to target.
Yes. And obviously, I'm just sort of guessing for you that you think it does still work.
Totally. It totally still works. And the thing is, you just have to make sure that you understand what success looks like to you because we have customers who think about influencers in different ways. So we have some customers who just use influencers to create content. So they may not have someone in-house that can take great product photography or keep up with the demands of social media. So they'll actually literally just send their products out to influencers to get those photos. And they don't sort of hold much stock in anything happening, but for them, they're saving money on photographers, videographers, all that content creation costs. Then we have customers who go for brand awareness. So they kind of work with bigger influencers and get that big reach. And then we have other customers who work with say your micros and your Nanos, and really want more of a strategy that will result in sales. So they're giving out coupon codes and different things like that. So the outcome that you want will dictate the strategy that you use. So you just need to be aware of that before you start so that you are kind of leaning towards the outcome that you, and I guess with the rights to create that outcome so that you do get what you want. So definitely that still works but you do have to think about it strategically.
Amazing. And when you are working with people, when you say a brand comes to you, say, I come to you and I'm like, “Hey, we are launching products, which is something exciting that we actually are launching this year.” And so I'm guessing that you work with them and sort of ask them these questions. Like what are you trying to achieve? Is there any kind of ratio? I know, I think this is what confuses people a lot when it comes to influencer marketing because you can't always exactly get the analytics behind brand awareness. And that might be a very long tail thing as well. Like, I saw this thing and then six months later I'm buying something from you. And I think so sometimes with influencers as I'll talk to clients and they'll say, “I spent all this money with this person and it didn't equate to anything.” And I think part of it is they didn't have, like, the analytics, all the stuff that you've just said, like make sure they're actually proving to you that they have got these followers. Is there any kind of ratio that people can look at? Like, okay, this person has X amount followers, therefore I should expect to pay this much for an Instagram post.
Absolutely. So there are things from what you were just sort of explaining. So the first is that post methodology, and this is something that we, again, because influencer marketing is unregulated. There is no wage that influencers make. So they can all, they're all considered small businesses so they can all charge exactly anything that they like. So we went out and performed a global study a couple of years ago to benchmark and we just revised it this year because TikTok just came out, basically looking at the number of followers they have and for how much you should be charged per post across which channel. Cause there are considerations as well, like a static image. So an Instagram post will cost you less than say a YouTube video because there's a lot more time and effort that goes into creating video content. So absolutely there is a benchmark very roughly.
And if we can add a link, I'll link to this resource for you. So anyone under 10,000 followers, you're probably paying up to a couple of hundred dollars per post, anyone up to about a hundred thousand followers, you kind of hang up to a couple of thousand dollars per post. And then as you're getting to kind of the 250K there, half a million, you can kind of start to hit thousand per post. So it can get very expensive, the bigger the influencer gets. So that's where you wanna make sure that you're assessing their audience insights first and then thinking about what is important to you. So what you should be tracking. So obviously the reach of an influencer and how much engagement they get is really important and interesting. Then when you are looking to get those followers or your potential customers to do something, if you can give the influencer a unique tracking link, then that's something that they can put in their Instagram stories or on a YouTube video as an example. So then you can actually measure the clicks that came from that post, which will make the brand or the marketer feel a lot more confident that there's actually some kind of action happening and then finally a coupon code. So if you do have a product for sale, you can give unique coupon codes to different influencers to measure the actual end attribution to the sale.
And look, it's not perfect because some people forget to use group coupon codes, even though they buy, but it does kinda give you that sort of end to end look all the way from the amount of potential followers someone has through to how many website visitors you had through to the end purchase sales. So you do just have to, it is a little bit disjointed. So you do just have to think about what outcome you want and what measurement you should have in place to capture it.
Amazing. I know so many people will be taking notes right this second about all those good said. Thank you so much for sharing them. another question. I kind of put you on the spot here, but I have quite a few clients who are in the couple hundred thousand followers, and sometimes I've been surprised cause I'm like, that could be monetized. Because if someone sends you something doesn't mean you have to post it, especially the audience that these people have. And in a couple of cases, we've talked about longer-term collaborations with certain brands or things. So they're the influencer who would be my clients. They're not influenced like influencer marketing is not their main source of income, but they just happen to have huge followings. So for someone who's listening, who does have a huge following, who is an influencer on their own, right? Whether they've got a brand that sells products or services or there, this is their job, like, is there a difference between influencer marketing and collaboration? Like if you can see, like if you are sort of a long-term collaborator with a brand versus an influencer that does post by post, or is that sort of where someone would come and work with scrunch on a longer-term campaign?
So the terminology that we use is that one-off post versus an ambassador role so that whereas the influencer you can choose to just accept payment or product in exchange for doing something once. And the contract associated is you literally have to deliver this one thing in exchange for whatever, as opposed to an ambassador style role, where essentially you get contracted to do a number of things over a longer-term. And that is becoming really interesting, especially if, as a brand, you have worked with influencers before and you understand who your top performers are. That's where we say if you can identify and measure that and then take those top performers and actually turn them into ambassador roles that will actually work out better, long term as well because you're actually, so just think about as a consumer, if you see someone post about something, once, you kinda take notice and it's only if you see it again somewhere else or again, somewhere else and you kinda go, I should maybe purchase that.
Versus if you see influencer who post multiple times about something and integrates it into their lifestyle, you kind of get that they really do actually believe in this product and you see it again and again, and a reminder again and again, then that does kind of take the consumers on that purchase journey a little bit better as well from the perspective of the influencers, it's also kind of a more reliable source of income. So on a once-off sort of collaboration or sponsored post, you kind of dunno how many you're gonna get per month. And you may not want to do a lot per month because you might not wanna appear to just be accepting any brand that comes to you. So that longer-term partnership can actually work a lot better for the influencer as well, because exactly how much money they're making and they know what they need to do in their own work-life every month.
Completely makes sense. Thank you. And talking about money and coming back to sales to get that money, if people are listening and either pitching themselves to an influencer or as an influence of pitching themselves to a brand, or just in general, they've got a new product and they wanna sell it. I know you mentioned Sales and Wine, and obviously, you do a lot of you help people to sell things, whether through influencer marketing or not. Do you have any tips, like say one or two tips for someone who's listening, who's thinking, okay, I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna buy the bullet. I'm gonna contact the influencer or I'm going to services to someone, what kind of ideas or what tips do you have for pitching or selling?
So interesting that you kind of said the phrase, I'm gonna buy the ball and do it. Because that is how a lot of people feel. They kind of go, how do I get my stuff out there? How do I get people to buy from me? I don't really wanna pitch my stuff. So the first thing I always say is to think about the value that you add to a potential customer. So you're not a scam artist. You obviously went into business because you are solving someone's problem. And that is amazing. So first hold on the back, and take a deep breath. This is the first piece of advice. And then the second piece of advice is not everyone is going to say yes and that's OK. That is not a reflection on you or your product. So my philosophy in sales and in life is I'm willing to talk to more people than anybody else on the planet. Because if someone says, no, I'm not gonna take that to heart.
I'm gonna still build a relationship with them in case something happens in the future, but I'll just move on to the next person. And that for me, takes the pressure off because it means, and not everyone has to say, yes, I'm not always in that kinda desperate sales mode. It's just, I'm sharing the value that we can, that we create, and that we can offer. And if it's a good fit now, fabulous, if not move to the next person. So, and kind of thinking about those two things is really important. And then if we layer it down to pitching to influencers, that's kinda thinking about pitching it to customers, pitching to influencers. It is the same thing. So communicating the value that you can add to their audience, who are your potential customers, but also talking about how that aligns to the influencer themselves. So the influencer is still a content creator, so they need to share relevant things with their audience. So you do wanna make the influencer feel like your brain is actually relevant to what they talk about and to what their customers will be interested in. So just making sure that you communicate that value and also acknowledge that there should be a value exchange. So the influencer, whether we like it or not, maybe this is how they make money. So they'll charge you. They'll very likely charge you. So making sure you acknowledge that and asking them for their rates for collaboration as well.
I love that. And I love that. You said it has to be, a win-win like it has to be just as good for them. I think I am definitely not an influencer. Danielle.
I don't believe that at all. I follow you, you influence me every day of the week.
So I get this question a bit because I have got sent things, which is lovely and always nice, but there's been a couple of instances where people have sent me things and then sort of like, “Hey, where are my photos.” And I'm like, one, I didn't ask you to send me anything. Two, there was no conversation about, “Hey, I'd love you to share it or please I'd like you to post my photo,” anything like that. And there was one particular case and it just, it actually got to the point where the person was hassling me a lot, where I said, I'm happy to actually pay the shipping and return this product because you've put me in a really awkward position now. And so I guess, yeah, just really reiterating that point, just because you contact them and say, you've got this product that you're in love with doesn't mean that they owe you work for free. Really.
Absolutely. And to be honest, that is literally the biggest industry. No, no. If you are expecting people to do anything in exchange for a product rather than payment, then you literally cannot ask them for any deliverable. So, if you are taking a gifting approach where you're not paying influencers for their work, you basically have to be prepared to write off a portion of that product because you can't expect everyone to post and you can't. And it's also like, relationships are everything. Why do you hassle? Because the funny thing is, six months down the track, you might have used that product and gone, that is amazing. I'll post about it. Now they've wrecked the relationship and you don't want anything to do with that brand of product. Totally people really forget that.
And also like you can't pay your bills.
I know. Yeah. You can't
Pay your bills in shoes. Like, it's nice that they send it to you, but you know.
I wish, but yes.
And like, it's lovely. I feel really bad. I feel like I'm such a diva here. Like people aren't gonna send anything, you feel free to send stuff, but just let me know, like expecting something outta it. And of course, I always post things that people are not sending me for any, they're always surprised like, “Oh my gosh, you took a photo. Thank you.” And I think that's exactly it, there's a relationship behind that. So of course I wanna support that business.
Yeah.
But you, it just comes across again so easily when we chat, you are just full of like drive and determination. And obviously, you're very intelligent. Danielle.
Thank you.
And you've just got this ambition and you're very clear on kind of where you're going. And where do you think that comes from? Like, were your family, were your parents or siblings, are they small business owners or where are they? Small business owners.
Do you know I have no idea where it comes from. So my parents are the most amazing parents on the planet, but it was funny. I grew up in a household where both my parents work at this same company for their entire lives. I didn't even know that you could run a business, It was literally it's so corny too, but I worked at Telstra for 10 years in corporate sales, and don't hold that against me. But it was so funny. I won this little holiday thing in a sales competition and I bought this book called The Four Hour Work Week.
Literally, I was sitting in the sand reading this book, and my whole world changed. I was like I'm sorry, what you're telling me? Cause I did, I was like the typical box ticker did well in school. Went to uni, got a corporate job, saving for a house, and all fine. But that's just the pack, I thought that you had to take, and it was when I read this book and I became, I actually started a blog as a result of that book. And I just became absolutely obsessed with an online business. I was just, I just couldn't believe that you could, you had the power to design the life you wanted to live, and that you didn't have to just fall into this path and tick all of these boxes. And just literally ever since then, I have just been obsessed, with online businesses. And I dunno that drive has just kinda stuck around, which is good.
I love that. And are your parents still both working at the same place?
No. So it's actually super random. They both were made redundant in the exact same year and this is just pre-COVID, and they packed up and they drove across the country. So they did live in Brisbane, drove across to WA and both got jobs over there. Cause my brother was living in WA and started this new life, like so impressive that they just went stuff it and took control and totally moved and, and changed industries. So not anymore. But at that time when I started Scrunch, they'd both been in the same job. So my brother actually got his own business. So it's nice to have some of the else in the family now that we can share war stories and have therapy sessions. So that's good as well.
I love that. And outside of your brother, you've just mentioned, have you had many mentors yourself? I mean, I know you mentioned the Tim Ferris book, but are there mentors or coaches or mantras or anything that has helped you cuz obviously you're helping so many other people with their business what's really helped you.
Yeah. So I am a big believer that mentors can be anyone and anything so that it doesn't have to be one on one relationship where you can go out to coffee with someone or a wine with someone and pick their brain. So I choose to see everything on the planet as a potential mentor, which is meant that, books for me are absolutely huge and podcasts now are huge. So Amy Porterfield, Gary Van Chuck for marketing, like I follow all of those guys and just really try and consume as much content as I can. And it was interesting. So Scrunch is actually a venture-back company. So we have investors and one of my investors once said to me, just keep going. And that mantra has how it rang true for many years now.
Yes. Especially the last couple.
Yeah. Tell me about it. Just keep going.
.
There's a Robert Frost. I think it's Robert Frost's quote and it said, I mean, I'm paraphrasing, but it's like, “everything I've learned in life can be summed up in three words. It goes on.” And I often come back to that cause I'm like, it does, it keeps going. The sunrises things keep going. Whether you want it or not, they keep going. So just keep going too.
I know. It's so funny. Like it, some days, the world feels like it's ending, but it never ends. You gotta keep going.
It never ends. I always, cause we get the best sunsets here and I am always running out the front being like “Levi, Levi. Who's my eldest, I'm like, come out, come and see this sunset tonight.” And I often say to him, no matter what's going on in the world, if you can see a sunset like it comes every day without fail and it's good, it's a beautiful thing. And you can take a few minutes to look at it, but I wanted to ask you another outside of like, the other tools that you like books and mantras and stuff, but obviously, you're someone in the tech space and outside of your own platforms, are there apps and platforms that you absolutely couldn't run your business without?
Absolutely. And I'm perpetually trying to. Yeah, but absolutely. So because we do have a remote team, Slack is super important for us. So that is our chat system. So basically we do all of our product meetings, marketing meetings, content meetings, all through Slack and chat, and all that. Zoom is amazing, which is where we recording on right now. So we do all of our meetings, but also record our interviews and podcasts and bits and pieces over Zoom as well. I'm a perpetual notetaker and list person. So I love it. My partner said to me the other day, he's like the over and over again. I'm like, well, if it makes it too many to-do lists, maybe one day it'll get done. But anyway, so I use Notion for all of our kinda documentation and listen, and Notion is a really powerful tool because you can actually create product boards and bits and pieces. So people use Trello and Asana and Monday, and I actually just use Notion. You can do it all in one place, which is really cool. Then, from a CRM point of view. So to keep track of all of our customer relationships, we use HubSpot, and before all our email marketing and look, there's probably like countless others, but they're kinda the ones they use on a regular basis.
We used so many too, I think I've said this before on the podcast, but last time I was onboarding somebody, we wrote a list of all the platforms and there was like 22 or 23 and I was like, okay, one of your jobs is to go through that and as much as possible, there's too many that we're using.
I know it's ridiculous, isn't it? And it's kinda, I've got that kinda goal for 2022 as well as how can I streamline things so that it makes what we're doing a little bit smarter, fewer overheads, and more efficiency for people learning it as well.
Completely. And so it doesn't sound like you would've found that many things hard, but can you pinpoint anything or one thing that you found really hard about running a business?
It's all hard. I think the biggest thing is there is something new that you have to deal with every day. And so I worked in corporate for 10 years. So someone always told me what to do. There's a product I was selling. There was a process that I was following. When you start your own business, you every department inside your organization and you probably have experienced one of those and you have all the rest, so the learning curve for running your business is super steep, but that's also half the fun as well. It's really interesting. I think and I say this carefully because I know everyone's had their own experiences over the last couple of years, but COVID for us was just another thing. Like every year there's been some kind of challenge that we've had to overcome, whether it be one year the product completely broke, we spend a year rebuilding our product, that was you think that's the worst thing that could ever happen to you and then COVID happens.
And then that's the worst thing that could ever happen to you. So there's, I think the rollercoaster of being a business owner is really difficult, like, and that sort of something that I've had to really learn to deal with and, and how to manage my energy and manage my emotions, but also switch off, I love your example of the sunset cause we do that too. So like whatever time day, you can go out, you see it and it's absolutely beautiful and it doesn't matter if the world is burning down around you, you can still go out there and appreciate life. Like you can choose any moment to stop and switch off and appreciate everything else in your life. And I think as business owners, we all have partners as well.
And it's super important to be able to do that, to make sure that you maintain healthy relationships outside of your business, because you do have to remember that not everyone is as obsessed about your business as you are. So you have to kind of be able to compartmentalize things and enjoy life. And remember that it'll all those problems will be there the next day. So you do have to sort of choose to have a bit of a life as well. So I think I didn't answer the question. Everything's hard.
Like, get up again. In my son's primary school, we have a mantra, what is it? Fall down seven, get eight. And it's the same sort of thing in business. Like you're gonna fall down again and again and again, and as long as you keep getting up, and I loved as well, what you just said about the problems will still be there tomorrow. I do think that I remember once years ago, someone saying to me when I was really stressed in a corporate role and they said tonight, I just want you to experiment and like go from 7:00 PM to 7:00 AM without looking at your emails. And I actually felt full-on physical anxiety. I was like, no, no.
Yeah.
And they're like, the world's not going too dark to crash around. You're not gonna like, kill this entire huge business by not looking house for 12 hours. And I did it and I just remember getting to work and being like, I bet I've missed an emergency. And I hadn't, there was really nothing that important. And I was like, Hey.
And sometimes I go, “Wow.” So the world could operate it if I didn't know obsessing over. Everyone's got it. It's gone.
Yes. And I think especially when you grow your business and you have more staff, it's a real lesson in itself, just letting your staff do their thing and not having to be on top of every single part of the business.
Totally. And that's kind of a lesson that I learned as well. It's like, if you don't empower people to do those things, then you just have a job you've just built a job for yourself. You haven't built a business, a business should be able to operate without you. And that's essential, it's almost like that's the that is the thing that you're working towards is creating something that operates without you so that you are just coming in to do the interesting creative, strategic, big stuff that will scale things.
Completely. And on that note and talking about scaling and I've done so well. I was just, Thinking back to that workshop and then looking at what you've created, it's incredible. And you should be so proud of yourself.
Thank you.
You're so welcome. So what, what are you most proud of from this journey? Whether with Scrunch or the other businesses you've started?
Do you know I think I'm just most proud that I'm still here, for as hard as things are that every year we are growing, we're solving problems, we're creating new value. We’re in influencer marketing, you need to adapt really quickly. Like every couple of years, a new social media platform comes out. So you're always gotta stay at the forefront of what is going on. And I think I am just most proud that I've never lost the drive to do that. And look, don't get me wrong. Have the bad days drink the wine, but I am just unshakable in my belief about what we are doing and what we've created. And I think that probably what I'm most proud of is that I will just keep getting back up and doing the things,
Just keep going. And so if people are listening to this and maybe they wanna get in touch with you about Scrunch or just tell you how amazing and fabulous you are, where can they connect with you? And also what is next for you? What's coming up in 2022.
Amazing. So we are kinda everywhere. So if anyone wants to connect with me personally, you know, Danielle Lewis on LinkedIn is probably the best place and then obviously Sales and Wine, and Scrunch it all over Instagram as you can expect. And then what's next. And actually, maybe this is something that I'm most excited about as well is one thing we haven't mentioned that we launched last year is a program called Spark, and Spark is a 12-week program that supports female-led and regionally based businesses. And essentially it's evolved over the 12 months, but we went out and raised corporate sponsorship to be able to deliver a 12-week program around sales and marketing for business owners. And it so it's really heavily subsidized by those sponsors. So you led businesses or region businesses should definitely look at sparkfoundersprogram.com because those 12-week programs will run about three times this year and, and are really exciting.
And not only do they give you an education program for 12 weeks, but all of the sponsors that have come on board supply, like really amazing perks, like free access to platforms like up to 10,000 worth of hosting credits with Amazon and obviously community as well. So that is something that's super exciting. Because it gives us, gives me the opportunity to kinda give back all of the knowledge that I've created over the last decade to future business owners, which is really nice. And just because we talked about technology and I'll end on a super nerdy techy note if anyone in your network has explored NFTs at all, we've just created and we're launching an NFT project, and all of the proceeds will go towards supporting these female founders in real life. So that will actually be basically the funding source for the Spark founders program and bringing that all into real life, which I'm so, so excited about.
It's so exciting. And sorry. I completely forgot to mention that you do so many things, Danielle. Love it. And I love that it's regional as well. My sister has been living in the country for 20 years and I just totally know that there just isn't the access that there is in the cities and especially you are a regional person yourself now.
I know, and that's it. That's really one of my goals this year is to not drop the education and really make it accessible for anyone. It doesn't matter where you are. Like we live in an age where technology is so readily available. As long as you have an internet connection, you shouldn't have any disadvantage over anybody living in a city area.
Completely. We have a wonderful woman in group coaching at the moment, Sally. And she is often coming to live with us from some sort of farm.
Really that's so cool. Yeah.
She often is like guys, the sheep in the background and I just love it. I'm like, I love she's. Yeah, she's on her phone. As long as I have an internet connection. Well, it's just been such a pleasure talking to Danielle. It's just such a pleasure to watch your journey and you're just incredibly inspiring and motivating. So thank you so much for coming on and sharing so much of your wisdom with my audience.
Absolutely. Anytime it's been a pleasure. And if anyone in your audience ever has a question, the virtual door is always open, and super happy to share anything I've learned over the last decade. If it means anyone can accelerate things in their business, so happy to be here.
Aw, thanks, Danielle. Bye
Bye. Thank you.
How lovely is Danielle? Honestly, she's one of those people that you just can't help, but smile when you're around her, that's just great energy. So I would love to know what you most took away from my chat with Danielle Lewis, the co-founder, and CEO of Scrunch and the founder of Sales and Wine. What was it that really stood out for you? For me, there are two things. I mean, there were so many things, but two things that kind of stood out for me was the idea. I know she sort of mentioned, “we've been 10 years to an overnight success.” And that Scrunch is more than a decade old. And I just think we forget that so often. And when she talked about creating the sanitizer business that they had the networks ready to go, they had a whole lot of people they'd met so many people over their business journey that they were able to create something pretty quickly.
And I think that's what people forget. I was talking to somebody the other day, who was it? Oh, it was the lovely Felicity Rogers from Cargo Crew. And we were talking about the fact that we are in the same age group. And we were sort of saying, we've been working. I started working when I was 14 years and nine months. I mean at Kohl's, but still, I have actually had people that I used to work with as we were both checkout chicks, reach out to me on Instagram and connect. So that was 14 years and nine months and I am now 41. So there's a huge amount of time that I've been working for a couple of years. That'll be 30 years that I've worked and connected with so many people here in Australia, in the UK, in the US, through my writing there in Japan, through my writing there, just people all over the world.
And I think that sometimes when people are getting started in business, they forget one, how many connections and networks they already have. I always talk about it with, cultivate your crew, like who are the people already in your life? Most of us know some incredible people that could help us. And by help, I don't mean ask them to do things for free, but how higher pay works with those people. So I love that Danielle talked about that. And the other thing with that is that it comes with time. So when she was creating this other business, she had all the experience and all the mistakes and all the knowledge that she'd gleaned from the other business. So, just remember that if you are somebody listening to this and you're just getting started and it just feels like everybody else out there seems to just get it one, look at your own connections and your own networks.
Is there somebody I could contact to help me with whatever challenge it is, but also remember you are just getting started. Every single business owner goes through that and you go through it again and again and again. So even if you're 10 years in, maybe you are starting some new direction or maybe you are launching into another territory. And again, you have to go back to being a beginner and there's nothing wrong with that. So just keep that in mind, that was the first thing of the 10 years to an overnight success. And then the other thing that I love that she mentioned was about influencers and looking at them as potentially long-term partnerships, really working with people that understand your brand, that love your brand, that are going to wanna work with you as well. So often you see, not as much anymore, I have to say, but I know when this first sort of came out and I was even at one of the companies that I worked at years ago, we paid a huge amount of money to an influencer who just obviously did not like the brand did not associate with kind of wanted to hide the fact that she was being paid to promote our product.
And that's just not, I mean, it doesn't really, it's not a, it's a lose-lose for everybody. I mean, she's embarrassed to put the product on. she's having like these obligations that she's been paid to do, and then it doesn't come across as authentic to your audience. And it's not great for you as a brand. So just really look for people who are actually going to influence your audience, but also work with you potentially long term. Like what else could you be doing? So maybe you've got a big campaign, but then what else could a retainer or working with them ongoing look like. So I love that she brought that up because it's not a flash in the pan. You want to work with people who have great communities and essentially you are leveraging their community and those audiences to broaden your brand awareness to broaden your sales, to increase your sales, or whatever it is that the objective is.
So many things that came up, but those were two that I wanted to highlight. I would love to know what came up for you. So please don't be a stranger. I love hearing from people on the DMS. You can just find me @mydailybusinesscoach on Instagram. And if you want to connect with Danielle, you can find her @daniellelewis.io on Instagram, you can also find Scrunchforbrands or one word on Instagram, Scrunchforinfluencers again, or one word you can find @salesandwine on Instagram. Or of course, you can go over the URLs of the platforms as well. So scrunch.com and then Sales and Wine is just salesandwine.com. And of course, we'll link to those in the show notes, which you can find over at mydailybusinesscoach.com/podcast/182. Thanks so much for listening. I'll see you next time. Bye. Thanks for listening to the My Daily Business Coach podcast. If you wanna get in touch, you can do that at mydailybusiness.coach.com or hit me up on Instagram @mydailybusinesscoach.
