Episode 222: How being curious and adventurous can take you to incredible places with Dr. Marion Piper of Marion Piper Creative
The world, more than ever, is hungry. Everyone has been starved for connection. In today's episode, Fiona talks to Dr. Marion Piper of Marion Piper Creative about relatable and actionable tips for business owners. They share about the crisis of meaning, the analogy of the dropped vase and so much more. Tune in!
Topics discussed in this episode:
Introduction
Who is Dr. Marion Piper?
On Posttraumatic Growth
On COVID hangover
Running a business during COVID
How Journaling helps business owners
The Expression Deck
Source of inspiration
Resources that helped Dr. Marion
How to connect with Dr. Marion
Conclusion
Get in touch with My Daily Business Coach
Resources and Recommendations mentioned in this episode:
@MarionPiperCreative on Instagram
We have to remember that we're not in hiding anymore. Nobody benefits from you hiding from you and from you keeping yourself away. The world more than ever is hungry, everyone has been starved for connection. Now, we have the ability to go out and be in the world again. It's the perfect time to start asking for what you want. We not only forget we have agency, but we also forget that we can ask, and the worst that could happen is people say no.
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If you believe in numbers, this is a good one. It is a good one because we have an incredible guest on this podcast. You are going to be blown away. If you are having any feelings of anxiety, or, “What am I doing with my life?” This is 10,000% the best podcast to be listening to right now. The best interview with an incredible small business owner.
Before we get stuck into that, I want to acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians of this beautiful land on which I live and play and get to talk to amazing people and the land that has healed me so much, especially over the last few years. That is the Wurundjeri and Wurrung people of the Kulin Nation, and I pay my respects to their elders past, present, and emerging, and acknowledge that sovereignty has never been ceded. As a small business owner, I pledge to work in ways that do aid in true equality for our First Nations people.
This episode is an interview with a small business owner, as I mentioned, and honestly, I have to say, this is one of my all-time favorites out of 222 episodes. This woman that I'm about to introduce you to is a wealth of information, wisdom, and insights. She's already making huge inroads and a huge name for herself in lots of different places and has been doing that for a long time. This is somebody who in the next twenty years is going to become one of the biggest thought leaders in a particular space in the world. I'm putting that out there. Big, big claim.
I want to say firstly, a massive thank you to Anna Gowers, who introduced me to this wonderful guest, Dr. Marion Piper, a few years ago. When COVID first hit in 2020, we all know it, I didn't know what to do. I was like everyone else, “What's going on?” I thought I would create this group on Facebook called the Good Business Group, it's still there, you can go into it. It's open to anyone around the world. It has lots of amazing people, it has 1,300 creative small business owners in there. I started it initially thinking we'd have 30 or 50 people in there. It would be my clients. It would be a way for us to all ask questions, to get out of our angst. It would be a way for me to bring in experts to talk about all things.
That's what I did, I created it, and it has grown. In the first year and a half, I want to say we had guests come in every single month, every couple of weeks even. It started that we had somebody every single week. We had guests come in and write music to get people through. We had this beautiful songbird, Joe Elise. We had sleep psychologists come in and talk about how to sleep. We had all sorts of experts.
In that, Anna Gowers, who has long been a supporter of my business. I met her she is a champion creative director. I met her when I consulted with an agency that she was at. She said, “I think you would benefit from meeting Marion Piper, she'd be great for your podcast or the group.” We didn't meet, we met virtually because of being locked down.
Marion and I exchanged emails, and I was like, “She's interesting.” I would love to bring her into the Good Business Group because she specializes in post-traumatic growth and creativity. This is what people need right now. They need to know, “How do I get out of this situation? How can I grapple with all these feelings that I'm having?” Because we have, the whole world has gone through trauma. Every person goes through trauma in their life regardless of who you are.
The whole world, we have this collective trauma as well. We're still in it, a lot of us are still in it, and other things are going on as well. I thought she is a perfect guest to have in the Good Business Group. Marion came in, and she floored it and wowed everyone. There was this insane amount of insight and wisdom, and all delivered in a very calm, really approachable way even though she is highly educated. It came in a way that anyone could understand, even with these very complex terms.
I then asked Marion to come into basically every Group Coaching program that I've run, business mentoring program. I have recommended her for lots of events. The world needs more Marion. I asked her to come on to this podcast. The timing is perfect. She was scheduled for far later this year. We had a cancellation and I thought somebody needed to postpone because they're traveling.
I said to my assistant, “Yricka, could you pull Marion forward?” Because right now, I don't think I know because I'm talking to so many different small business owners. A lot of people are feeling lost at the moment. I was like, “I know that Marion can deliver such information and insights that people need.” Who is Marion? She is a doctor, she has a Ph.D. She is a smarty pant. She’s a Doctor of Philosophy, but she's a creative, a true creative. She does all things from Creative coaching. If you're reading this and thinking, “I need help with that. I don't see myself as creative.” Get in touch, she’s a creativity coach. She's a copywriter, she does all things.
When you look her up, you're like, “She's also the chair of this. She's done this.” A smart, curious woman. She came on the podcast and talked about what it's been for her own business because she did set up a business before COVID. She said lots of different learnings. What can we all take away from what's happening to us currently? In this, she talks about the idea of a crisis of meaning, and I'll let you read what that means.
There is so much wisdom and wealth from this, there is so much hope and possibility and opportunity for growth from the way that Marion talks about things and what we can take from that and action in our own lives. I won't keep gushing on. This is such an interesting interview important. If you can get a notepad or a way of recording things that will be useful. I was scribbling down a lot of notes while I was talking to her. I've let those things digest and formulate in my mind. It is extraordinary. I love having a chat with Marion anytime. An absolute pleasure to bring you this my interview with Dr. Marion Piper.
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Hello, Marion, how are you feeling?
First, I'm happy to be here. However, I am battling one of the eight delightful upper respiratory viruses that happen to be circulating in Melbourne. That's not ideal. I suppose more broadly, I'll be super honest upfront and say, lately, I've been feeling uninspired.
We were talking before we got on to recording but what do you think has led to that? Because you're someone who quite often inspires others, we'll talk about that later in the chat. What do you think resulted in this?
It's probably the exhaustion from the last few years. That seems an obvious answer. Whenever I'm sick, I tend to feel a bit beaten down. We're talking about this, but upper respiratory infections. If we think from a spiritual perspective, it makes sense to me why I'm feeling uninspired. The word inspired, the etymology of that word is literally to take in your breath.
Lately, I have been, as you mentioned, I've been giving out a lot of inspiration and my mood has been set to output. I'm thinking it's probably wound up in the same thing is that it's a reminder for me to slow down and to pay attention, and to take in some new breath. Whether that's switching up my routine, getting out in nature, or getting around some different air.
I've been on default mode and autopilot for the last little while, more of a survival mechanism. As things have started to open, there's a good opportunity to start to course correct that behavior and undo some of those deep neural pathways, which will take time, but this is the first indication that I've had where it's like, “Now is the time because the feeling Is there.”
This is going to be an amazing chat because as always, you're bing right from the get-go. Who knew that that's the etymology of that word, to take a breath. It's incredible. It's so true. We have been, I don't want to say permanently damaged but changed. Maybe temporarily, deeply changed by the last few years, everyone around the world. Also here in Melbourne, I had a client the other day, he's in Sydney, and he made an off-the-hand comment of, “When are you coming to see me again?”
I used to go to Sydney once a month, or every two months at least. I then said to my husband later, “The thought of even getting on a plane right now. I have been so conditioned to be scared of that.” It's not even an option that I wasn't even aware of until he said it. I was like, “There's no going to Sydney for a while,” which is weird because we've been out of lockdown for a while.
It's that ingrained travel flights are off the cards, but everyone's traveling now. I realized myself, and my husband said, “We are psychologically damaged.” We usually travel overseas every year. It's weird, what you're saying how it's coming up in different ways that we don't realize until somebody points it out, or you're getting this real spiritual problem.
It's in times like this when we are in this. I know we're going to talk about this. As we start to move into this post-collective trauma time, we tend to default back to one of two modes based on what we value most and our experience of what has happened. Either you’re going to be someone who defaults back to your sense of security. You'll be like, “No, I don't want anything new. I want what feels comfortable, what’s safe,” or you'll be someone who flicks the other way and goes, “I am so tired of what's comfortable and safe. I want freedom, uncertainty, and newness.”
There's this pendulum that swings. You might swing between that minute to minute, not even more broadly, your life. This tension that we're dealing with, this push and pull between perceived security and perceived freedom, the challenge is how we integrate those two things into our lives moving forward so that we can continue to move forward. It doesn't end up being something that holds us back.
You are a wealth of wisdom. People listening who may not have heard of you are like, “Who is this woman? What does she do? Tell us about her, please? Because I'm intrigued. Is she a miracle worker?” No. For people who don't know, or who’ve not heard of the great Dr. Marion Piper, I'd love to explore a little bit about who are you? What do you do in terms of business? I've mentioned you in the intro and how we came to connect. I'd love for you to describe what you do because it's fascinating.
I'm Dr. Maz. I am a creativity coach and an ex-agency copywriter. I still do a little bit of copywriting now. I have always been interested in the idea of when things go wrong. Why do some people go on to not bounce back and be resilient, but go on to thrive? There's a big conversation around when something goes wrong, how do we fix ourselves? That's not as interesting to me, there is a whole medical model that's built on treatment.
I'm more interested in that more positive conversation about how we can put ourselves on the trajectory for growth when something bad happens. My background is as chaotic as you could imagine. I have had went through some pretty significant childhood trauma. My career has been quite varied. I started in the arts, I wanted to be a video installation artist.
It feels like a lifetime ago. When I was 16, I was like, “I want to be a full-time art critic.” Writing had always been there but I quickly realized when I got to university, that I was like, “There are two people who are full-time art critics in the world. It's probably not the most viable option for me right now, maybe down the track.”
I then worked in an art gallery as a gallery assistant for a while. I’m a super lover of lifelong learning and education. I went right through and did a master's in writing. I did my Ph.D., which I finished in 2017, which is the culmination of a lot of things that I was interested in. At the same time was working in and out of creative agencies as a copywriter both here and in the US.
I feel I've done everything that you could do with writing. I feel like I've done it now because I'm so obsessed with the words that we choose and the power of language. I do think it is key for us cognitive-led beings. I built a business around that at the end of 2019 and started in 2020 when I left my last agency job.
Before COVID.
The perfect time to start a business, but surprisingly, it was. I was nonstop for the entire pandemic because as you could imagine, everyone trying to get online, nobody knew what to say or how to say it, and not wanting to add to people's stress. My background and the research that I've done into trauma and then combined with my skills as a copywriter has had been uniquely placed to be able to create messages and language for people that not only talk about and deliver what they're about, but it's also to the person on the other end. It's been a journey.
Incredible. I had no idea about the video installation, you never know, maybe it'd be doing that with words and different things.
I don't know if anyone else is like this. When I find something that I love, I tend to go all in and drill down. I was even more like that when I was younger. I did my honors degree. I was in the studio twenty a day. I was just studio and bed. I was interested in figuring out the relationship of images to words which is an interesting space to play in, and how you can use them to play off each other. That background also helped me be a better writer visually, but I also write. Developing both of those skills is important, particularly if you are creative in business.
Designers that can also write a little bit are so beautiful to work with same as copywriters who also understand design. Playing off and figuring out what your complementary skills are is something that I've also harnessed and dedicated myself to. My biggest battle and business has always been having so many passions and multiple passions. This 2022, I've fully accepted the fact that I'm always going to love so many things.
That's been the most freeing thing that I've done for myself, it brought a new level of peace to the business journey because I'm not finding what is coming up so innately, which is something that happens to a lot of people when they start is this. They think they have to be everything to everyone. They listen too much to what other people are saying.
I'm so glad that you said that. I have several clients who struggle with the same issue. I've seen it year after year. I work with an artist who also does textile print, who also does some various things, and they're like, “I've got this, and do I need five different Instagram? Do I need five different websites?” I'm like, “No, people accept that you can be a high-end artist, but you also do tattoos or small little license products.”
It's good that you said that because there'll be a lot of people listening are like, “Okay, that's the permission that I didn't know that I needed.” You mentioned that you've worked a lot in the trauma and post-traumatic world. I wanted to get you on here as well because you have a wealth of knowledge about something that obviously, and we've talked about, is impacting and has impacted everyone on the planet to varying degrees, which is trauma.
As you've discussed, you are also someone who celebrates and helps people tap into their creativity and embrace their creativity, even if they don't think they are so-called Creative. Can you talk us through posttraumatic growth, what does it mean? What does creativity have to do with that, if anything?
I can do that. Honestly, it is a concept that changed the course of my life, my personal life, as well as my work life. Posttraumatic Growth is a concept that comes out of positive psychology. It was coined by a couple of researchers in the US in the late ‘90s, Tedeschi and Calhoun if you want to look them up. Essentially, it posits that it's possible to experience a positive psychological change in the aftermath of trauma as a result of struggling to integrate that trauma into your life.
A key to that also to is understanding what trauma is, and I subscribe to Dr. Gabor Maté’s definition, which is trauma is not what happens to you, but what happens inside of you because of what happened which is why I love the concept of Posttraumatic Growth so much because it's the next step. What do I do with what happened to me? That's where a lot of people get stuck is that they tend to get stuck in the loop there. That's where in psychology, you tend to see people develop symptoms of PTSD, post-traumatic stress disorder.
In the research, when I was doing my Ph.D., I was looking at the relationship between posttraumatic growth and creativity. There are so many fascinating things they talk about around the type of person that tends to experience Posttraumatic Growth, which tends to be people who are a little bit more extroverted, and those who are open to new experiences.
If you're thinking, “How can I reverse engineer this and help myself when something goes down?” Reach out, and introduce new things, which is why when we started this conversation, where we were, if you're on autopilot, it's easy to develop those ruminating thoughts that can be dangerous when you get stuck up in your head.
If we think about trauma, not what happens to us but what happens inside of us, if we want to get on that Posttraumatic Growth trajectory, this is why I love the creativity in this conversation so much, because creativity gives us agency. It facilitates a way for us to find what will happen to us. Part of the Posttraumatic Growth conversation, and the way that it tends to show up in people's lives, this is from the research, there are five domains.
People who experienced Posttraumatic Growth tend to have deeper relationships with others. This is after they've gone through something tough. They have a greater sense of their strength, and they tend to appreciate life in general, a little bit more. This is a kind of spiritual or existential change. The final piece of the puzzle, which I love is this, they tend to recognize new possibilities.
The work that I'm trying to do is I'm trying to take this concept of Posttraumatic Growth, take these five domains of life, and look at ways that I can reverse engineer those five things through the lens of creative practice. To give us a bit more of a roadmap to growth that's much more in our control. We don't have to rely on external sources to do it because we forget our agency so quickly, particularly when things go wrong, and our worldview is shattered. This is where creativity can make a big difference.
That's fascinating. It leads to the next thing that I wanted to ask. Say someone's listening to this, and they're like, “Now I have that knowledge. How do I put it into practice?” I know a lot of people and I've talked to clients and friends and a lot of clients, I have to say, it's nice being a business coach because you get to see common themes that keep coming up.
During COVID, everyone panicked, it was then this novelty. We’re now in this horrible hangover. People are feeling like they should feel better because things are opening, but they're feeling worse. You've alluded to a bit of this earlier on, they are feeling burnt out, and people are feeling unmotivated. I had a beautiful client who was vulnerable in group coaching and said, “I don't know if anyone else is feeling like this. You've worked with me for years, I'm usually someone who sees an idea and go for it. I've got all the motivation.” I'm like, “This is amazing.”
She did that throughout COVID. She works in a space that was very impacted hugely by COVID. She said, “I don't have anything, I don't have anything left in the tank, and I don't know what to do with that.” I'm wondering, people are losing that enthusiasm, even people who financially are been doing well. Maybe their business has grown, the email list has grown, everything they wanted to grow is growing, and it's still this cycle, “Why am I not feeling better?”
I wanted to ask your opinion, is it a COVID hangover? Is it trauma, and people get stuck in this space? Do you have any advice for managing this endless loop of, “I feel like crap? I'm looking at the news, and it's crap, and why can't I get motivated?” It's berating ourselves. Sorry, I don't know if that even makes sense as a question.
It does. It's so hard because I feel the same way. Even though a lot of things are going well. Something will happen and then I get this nice little hit dopamine hit where I’m like, “Yes, I remember why I'm here and what I need to do.” When that wears away, you’re like, “Okay, cool. I guess I'll go do some laundry now.” There's less steadiness in our emotional landscape at the moment. This is because we might be experiencing a crisis of meaning. That's that spiritual existential change domain of posttraumatic growth.
Can I pause that for one second? Can you repeat what you said? I feel like Oprah. I need you to say that again that everyone can read it. What are we in a crisis?
We’re in a crisis of meaning. The way that this is described in the Posttraumatic Growth literature is the analogy of the dropped vase. If you imagine a beautiful vase, it's something that you cherish, maybe it's a family heirloom, and it gets knocked off by someone else or something else off the shelf, and it shatters into a million pieces in front of you.
There's that initial shock of like, “This vase is broken, it's never going to look the same again. It's one of a kind. What am I going to do with this?” From that space, one question that I tend to always ask myself when something like this happens is what I can make of this? Essentially, there are two options. One, you can scrape up all the shards of the vase, and you can and throw it out. You then don't have the vase, you don't have anything, and you’re starting from scratch again, which can be incredibly difficult.
You can sweep up the shards of the vase, you can take them to the desk, and you can start to rearrange them into something new. This is what the Posttraumatic Growth moment is, and it also leans on what my definition of creativity is, which is connecting the dots in new and surprising ways. Remember that the fifth domain of posttraumatic growth is recognizing new possibilities.
You're probably at the point now, we're 2.5 years in and the dust has started to settle. Things are opening. A lot of people around you that I would describe as the normies, they've defaulted straight back. They've swept up their vase, they've thrown it in the bin, and they're like, “I'm going on eBay to buy a new vase.” They don't even think about it, they're not processing it, they're letting it go.
If you are in the business of meaning-making yourself, you might be sitting there with all these shards in front of you going, “This looks completely foreign to me. I can recognize parts of the pattern of the old vase. It's not the same order. I have this one big bit that I love, but I don't have any of the other parts that normally connect to it.” It's not about focusing on the shards of all the things that you've lost, or the fact that it doesn't go together the way that it was, but it's to find the pieces of it that still make sense to you and use those as the foundation to rebuild a new vase.
It might also not be a vase, maybe it might be a mosaic. It could be a bowl, maybe you're like, “I'm going to turn this into a musical instrument by putting it in a bag and shaking it.” This is the creative moment, we're in a very creative moment, even though it doesn't feel like an artistic creative moment, which that's usually driven by self-expression.
We're in this moment where we have all these different pieces lying in front of us. It's up to us to decide, “What do I want to make this mean? What will I make of this? What's important to me, what parts of these I don't even care about anymore.” Giving yourself the grace to throw those bits in the bin, but to keep the parts of it that are still recognizable and still make you feel you.
I feel like we have group therapy here. This is amazing. That analogy is so clear, firstly, but also, it's so important, whether it's COVID or whether it's somebody who's going through grief, some loss, a divorce, the change of business or selling their business, or all sorts of things to be like life is not the same, but it can still be beautiful. It can still be different. You get to decide how you do that.
I remember once when you were talking, I was thinking, I had a chat with one of my friends who had been trying to get pregnant for ages. She then got pregnant. She was six months in, it was horrible. You're not sleeping, everyone's expecting it to be perfect motherhood. It's so fun. She was having a struggling time. She kept talking about the life before and I was like, “Your life before, you're never going to go back to that life. You're a mom now. It's your job to be a mom for the rest of your life.”
She was feeling this intense guilt of like, “I wanted this and now I'm not enjoying it. I wish I had that life that I had before.” I remember having this conversation about, “You will never have that life again, but you're going to have all these other amazing things in between the lack of sleep and everything else that's new and different and beautiful in different ways.” That's such a beautiful way of putting it all together. Seeing that possibility is there. You said before, not getting stuck and staring at the broken pieces for ages. It's like, “What can I do with them?”
They're not going to change either. The damage is done, and we're at the point now, because we have a little bit of space and distance from what's happened, even if it is only that little bit of hindsight, we can look back and focus on all the things that we lost or we can look back and focus on all the things that needed to change.
If you're anything like me, I was going a billion miles an hour. While I kept up that energy during the lockdowns, a lot of the other parts of my life where I was also a million miles an hour were stripped away. There's a big difference between a change that you initiate versus a change you have to respond to. We're on that second path. Thinking about it from that lens, too, is like, “I'm in response to this, this wasn't something that I created. It's not my fault.”
The vase might be broken, but I didn't knock it off the shelf, life did. It's not about blame, I want us to shift that conversation away from, “It was the exotic food market in China that caused all this.” It doesn't matter. What happened isn't the focus. This is what the language of Posttraumatic Growth gets us to start thinking about.
It puts us back in the driver's seat, it puts us in charge. We're the ones sitting there with the mat and the glue and the shards of the vase. What do you want to do with it? Because you can do whatever you want. A part of that conversation then kicks us into, what do I want? I'm at that stage now where it's like, “Now I have to ask that question,” because the world is clear, the path is clear. It's like, what do I want?
How privileged we are to even answer that question ourselves to say, what do I want to do? I have the opportunity to choose what I would like to do. I could sit here all day and have a four-hour Podcast. I'm also aware of your time. You said you launched before COVID? I know you've touched on a few things. How has it been running a business in the last few years? What have you learned about yourself in the process of smiling, I'm sure there are lots of things that you've learned, any business owner has learned through COVID, or starting a business, and you did both at the same time?
It's been a roller coaster, this is the first time I've been out on my own in a business capacity. I feel very privileged to have been in management positions in smaller businesses before this. I was around and witnessed a lot of what my bosses went through. A lot of the things that came up, I felt it was a little bit more prepared for because I'd seen it, but obviously, the feeling of it is very different.
The one thing I can pinpoint was how important emotional regulation is as a business owner. The times when I was able to self-soothe and calm myself and talk myself through an issue produced the most incredible results. If I didn't have either the energy or the enthusiasm, or I was feeling what was me if I was dipping into that victim mode, things started to slowly break apart.
You have set the tone for everything in your business, your clients will respond to you and respond to whatever energy that you're giving out. Especially because I'm single and I lived alone for the pandemic. I had to develop the skills and tools and the support. I had to ask for that support to help me emotionally regulate. I learned so much about myself, it was a quantum leap in personal development similar to what I experienced when I was doing my Ph.D.
That process asks you to unpack and investigate your perspective of the world and what matters to you, and what you stand for. I see those two things felt similar in their intensity, then the other part of it too, is to not take yourself and your business seriously. Because we're here, I believe our purpose on this planet is to have fun and enjoy pleasure. Otherwise, why would we feel it, acknowledging that spectrum of emotions, allowing those emotions to happen, and then focusing on how can I make this fun? How can I enjoy myself in this process? Those are the things that I think about.
Many important things, especially that emotional regulation and energy. One of my favorite things that I ever learned from a manager was when she said, “You need to always enter a workshop or a meeting with the same energy want to have when you exit.” Don't be nervous if you don't want to be nervous at the end of it. Don't be angry if you want to be angry at the end of it. I use that in every workshop in every group coaching program.
We do one-minute meditations where it's like, “Let's take 60 seconds, let go of whatever crap you've had to deal with before this minute. We then can be present in the next hour.” I feel even that so many people are like, “I never take a minute to myself during the day.” I'm like, “it's a minute, you could do it in the supermarket. You could understand in an aisle for a minute and take a couple of deep breaths.” It's such an important thing, to be responsible for your energy, and how you bring that into the world. I appreciate you bringing that up.
Speaking of Energy, you are a big journaler. You can tell I like stalking you, Marion, because I look at all your Instagram stories. I was watching your journal. You created these beautiful card decks, and I bought some pre-ordered before you had them out into the world, but it's something I have stopped and started, and I've done masterminds and journaling as part of that. I'm inspired by your posts and your stories on the cards. How do you think journaling helps from a business perspective?
I've been journaling since I could pick up a pen. I have the biggest, longest-running archive of my life, I feel sorry for whoever is going to have thought that out at some point. My definition of journaling is starting a conversation with yourself and to have a conversation more broadly is that you need to ask the right questions.
From a business perspective, a few things are going on that journaling can help with, the first of which is that it helps you get the thoughts out of your head and down onto paper. When we make something tangible, it becomes external and separate from us. We're less likely to barite ourselves on paper if that makes sense because it's not in our head, it's on paper.
For your nervous system, for your stress levels, getting it out alone does wonders. The other thing too is that something that I've come to understand is that business is one of the most creative art forms there is. Often, it's incredibly personal. Journaling allows you to personalize your experience. Business doesn't have to be this left-brained logical, numbers-based experience. Again, we'll come back to this question of what I want this to mean.
Journaling gives you a space where it's you and yourself. You don't have to show it to anybody. It's not about content and about attracting customers. It's not externally based. Asking yourself, gathering powerful questions that you can ask yourself, allows you to articulate the life that you want, and how your business can support that, not the other way around. I know that I've made that mistake in the past when I created the business because it came from something familiar, I then tried to squish my life into it.
That's what we're taught to do as employees, we're taught to enter a business. When you are the person who is creating the business, it's your responsibility to set that tone based on how you want to feel and what life you want to live. Because it is an ongoing conversation, journaling, an ongoing conversation with yourself, in my mind, I'm torn here, it doesn't matter how often you do it.
If you have a little bit of a break, it's okay. It's like any healthy relationship needs space and to develop a bit of perspective. If you're somebody who picks it up and puts it down, picks it up and puts it down, I wouldn't even worry about that. The fact that you are conscious and aware of that is enough. The reason I tend to journal every day and will flip between doing it in the morning if I've got a busy day is because it helps me organize my thoughts.
If I've had a big week, I'll do it at night as a brain dump to get all the thoughts out of my head. Whenever I journal, I keep a separate notebook or piece of paper, in case any to-dos fall out of the conversation I have for myself, because it might be like, “I'm meeting with so and so today.” It then might ping another idea because our creative brains are always connecting the dots and might be like, “I've got to email this person.” Rather than being like, “I'll do that when I finish.” I’ll write it down, then I’ll edit it into my workflow for the day.
It becomes a little bit more organic and that way you're not fighting your brain. You're not having to sit there constantly and be like, “What do I need to do today?” Because you already created the space for all of that to fall out. Journaling itself is a big exercise in self-trust. That muscle will build, the more often and the more frequently that you do that practice.
You've got me all excited. I'm like, “I bought a new notebook. Maybe I'm going to start it again.” I was like you, I had journals, the earliest was when I was nine years old. I had them all through my 20s. I stopped, and I wish I hadn't because I had such incredible experiences. I wish I marked them at the time.
Even something like, I bought these beautiful books for my kids, every year on their birthday, there's space to write a four- or five-page letter about them. When they're 21, they’ll open it, and every single year is captured. It's such a lovely thing to be like, “You're so cute,” “You say this word,” or watch how they develop. It's such a beautiful thing, I'm going to pull out your cards and do them. Can you talk a little bit about your cards, and do you still sell them? I'm assuming.
It's called The Expression Deck. It was one of those creative moments that was in response to what was happening around me. I designed and made them and got them printed in the lockdowns in 2021. Because people were asking me and similar to what you've said, “I used to journal a lot,” or, “I know it's important, but I don't know what to say.” That's when it forced me to articulate my process. It does start from a question.
Of these cards, there are 52 in the deck, they're all different questions. They're all based around those five domains of Posttraumatic Growth because I didn't want to have the standard, “How do you feel today,” questions. I tried to take them and make them a little bit more specific. One of my very favorite questions that I answer almost every day from that deck is, “How is your heart today?” I love that one so much because it gets us out of our heads and into our bodies.
I've tried, but it's difficult to lie to your heart. Your brain, however, can be a bit dick that will give you every reason under the sun to make up stories and give yourself excuses, but your heart knows. You know what you're feeling, what resonates, you can't run from that. I tend to use that question to pull myself back down, pull myself back off the proverbial ledge.
Speaking of writing and words, and all of this great stuff about language, you are a fantastic copywriter. You said before you worked in different agencies and content creative, and you have helped people and continue to help people craft their message in a way that's aligned and meaningful. When you were talking about alignment, that's one of our values at My Daily Business Coach as well.
That alignment, I'm covering my face, no one could see it except Marion, the number of times I hear people say, “I've been told I need to do a 90-day runway, I need to do 17 webinars. I need to do this many posts.” I'm like, “Whatever you need to do has to align with you.” I don't do any of that. I run these group coaching programs. I mentioned it on the podcast. We have a way of marketing that's aligned with us.
You have to be in alignment, otherwise, it's not going to work. You said before, it’s not, “This is exactly how you run a business and follow my exact method.” I completely don't believe in that. I do know that you've helped people craft their message in a way that feels right for them and is aligned and meaningful. Do you have, given this as a business podcast, a go-to tactic, or a tip for anyone who's getting started with their content or copy? They just are like, “I don't know how to even start.”
I'm glad you mentioned that idea of, I've been told or I should do this, I need to post this many times a day. I've always giggled when people asked me, “How many times a week should I post?” I'm like, “How long is a piece of string?” There's the algorithm. It depends on what your goals are. The one thing that I always come back to and encourage my clients to come back to is, “What do you stand for?” I'm not talking about your services. I'm not talking about your systems or your processes.
Another way to think about this is, Suz Chadwick, who's a friend of mine talks about, “What hill are you willing to die on?” To get clear on three sentences, little bite size, soundbite messages, that are the things that unequivocally you believe in, and let those become the foundation for what you create. Again, we're thinking about building a business around who we are and what we do rather than the other way around.
The other question to go with that to unpick that further is if people knew what I knew, how would their lives change for the better? We tend to take for granted all the things that we know. We tend to take for granted our lived experience. Honestly, what I found, the people that come to work with me, come to work with me because of all of that. Not because I'm a copywriter, because they're like, “I see you talking about the things that you're passionate about, you're talking about what you're obsessed about.”
It's because I'm devoted to my craft, and I'm devoted to this idea that creativity can save us because that's my message. Everything that I do has to come back to that point. If you're in that position of getting stuck or you're blocked, go back to the foundation, go back to what you care about. What keeps you up at night, what couldn’t you stop talking about. That's the interesting stuff.
Lately, I’ve been, you probably have seen because you follow me, obsessed with Master Chef. It's embodying. I stand for too, which is the beauty and the magic of the creative process, and the fact that creativity can save us and they're doing the same thing. A lot of the people on that show talk about how they lost their lust for life. They're used to love cooking for people, but they come on this show, this creative show to push themselves and challenge themselves, and to share their message of what they believe food can do. Yes, they're good chefs. That's cool, and it's good food. What's interesting is the process behind it.
If you're struggling, if you're starting out making content, pick a point during your day to stop and share what you're doing, and share what you're thinking about. You might even like to do it over a coffee in the morning, just a morning thought, what's top of mind for you? Because you'll be surprised when you start expressing yourself rather than sitting down to make content, which sounds awful. If you express like, “What am I? What's happening inside me around me?” At that moment, you don’t even have to worry about being authentic, because you already are.
I love that so much. It's interesting how much people don't realize, it's almost like we forget we are human and we're talking to other humans. No one's interested in this coffee cup 24 hours of the day, and like, “What does it do? What colors does it come in? What's it made up?” I was talking to somebody. When we started talking about this, they were just like, “Our entire brand name is about this one particular topic.” I was like, “Oh.” They're like, they never talked about that topic ever. I guess we got caught up in like, “We sell a product, we need to talk about a product.” No, you're humans selling to other humans, not even selling, you're connecting with other humans. We're the connection points as well.
Thank you so much for sharing that because I'm sure it'll help so many people, whether they’re good at copywriting or content or not confident with it. In that space, a lot of people that I work with, in the design, creative space, and we touched on before, you're always giving so much of this in your socials and your business. Whilst you're not necessarily feeling super inspired right now, where do you get your inspiration from? You mentioned newness, but did you also come from a very creative family? The fact you wanted to do a video installation. Is that because, I saw it in my family, was there a creative inspiration from childhood? Where did that all come from?
I suppose this is that nature versus nurture conversation. I had a traumatic childhood. My parents split when I was three. Mum moved us up to the Gold Coast, whilst dad was in Melbourne and started another family. My mum was incredibly musical. She was very funny with a very dry sense of humor, which is a lot of where I feel l get from. I’m a good blend of both my parents.
She was like, incredibly sick and demons, and she was an alcoholic. It was hard to watch. It overrode a lot of the other positive qualities that I know that I have that she also had. She worked in aged care. My parents weren't my creative role models. If anything, they were a bit like, “Don't do that.” I was like, “I got that message.”
My dad was very creative he's someone who I remember when I was a teenager, he'd be like, “Come on, let's get in the car.” We'll turn around the neighborhood looking for hard rubbish. He would find a bedhead. He's like, “I can make a coffee table from this.” Very creative, but in a very different way, and much more of a building mentality. Someone significant to me was my high school art teacher, Dr. Lexi Lasczik, who I'd spoke to on my podcast, about arts education and how important it is. It was through her that she saw how much of a voracious appetite I had for learning.
She started to put these artists in front of me. It’s where I saw the possibilities for the self-expression that I could have. I was always a creative kid, I was in school musicals, I played three different instruments, and I wanted to do it all. It's all I wanted to do. That, for me, there's been no self-doubt there, it's always been something that I've known deeply. That is part of who I am.
In terms of what will probably make sense why this is where my inspiration comes from, I'm inspired by artists in different mediums to me. Most of my Instagram feed at the moment is painters. Because I don't know how to paint, I'm not very good at it. I love watching other people's processes and hearing about their decisions and the choices that they make. Particularly, I'm a meaning junkie, I chase meaning and way too deeply about everything.
What I've started to do is focus more on listening and taking notes and paying attention to the world around me. That means that I document everything, which makes sense why I'm such a journaler. One of the things that is key to inspiration is having a life, putting down the phone, and going out to meet the world where it is, rather than waiting for it to come to you.
Case in point, I was sitting around, flicking through dating apps, not having a very good experience. I uncovered a speed dating event that was near me, which I went to. That was me going out into the world because if you're a creative person, you need fodder for your art and for what you're making. The more new experiences you have, the more experiences you have more broadly, and the bigger the field of possibility you have to connect dots in new and interesting ways.
You've got to feed that sky of dots to put up potential connections by having a life. It sounds basic and simple, but again, it’s so easy to get caught on autopilot and forget that that's part of why we're here. We're here to experience things, not just read about them, not just write about them, not just design about them. That's something that I always focus on and come back to.
I love even speed dating example. We forget we have a tendency sometimes to go into things, and I've talked about it before in this podcast. It's something that comes up a lot, you're a bit younger than me, at that age group. As an adult, it can be hard to make friends. I had moved out to North Warrandyte some years ago. I kept driving in and out to Collingwood to see my friends.
I was like, “No one lives around here that I know.” I assumed I'd make all these friends when my son started prep. It was a tough year. My dad was dying, I had a baby, it was hard, then it was COVID. I got together a group of women, some I'd interviewed, some who had been clients who lived in the next suburb. I was like, “Does anyone want to be in a book club?” We created this book club, and then we've met every single month for the last few years.
We're planning a weekend away, we have a beautiful WhatsApp group, and all the other women I was like, “What if this stuffs up? What if no one talks and I'm the loser that started this.” I put my foot in it to make friends with anyone around here. Every week, the restaurant had to throw us out. We stood outside this restaurant. We met at 7:00. We kept talking until midnight, and everyone was in the same boat. They all wanted to meet other people. They were all staying at home and thinking, “My friends are in the city.” It's this beautiful group. It would never have happened if I didn't go. Yes, it's uncomfortable to put yourself out there, but let's do it and see what happens. It's such an important reminder, with you with speed dating, or anything to do new things, even if they're scary.
To express yourself like this is where you close that loop down a little bit of creativity. Creativity facilitates self-expression because it demands you have a perspective demanding to reveal yourself. Now that things are opening up, we have to remember that we're not in hiding anymore. Nobody benefits from you hiding from you and you keeping yourself away. The world more than ever is hungry, everyone has been starved for connection. Now, we have the ability to go out and be in the world again. It's the perfect time to start asking for what you want. We not only forget we have agency, but we also forget that we can ask, and the worst that could happen is people say no.
That’s the worst. My dad used to always be like, “Most people are good. Most people aren't jerks.” Speaking of people, and asking for help, have you had any good mentors or are there mantras? A book or documentary, it sounds like you're a voracious learner and reader, that has helped you with your business.
I'm glad that I had an opportunity to think about this ahead of time to narrow it down. First, your podcast and book were delightful during the lockdown. I loved your approach to all this stuff. Thank you for doing that. Lexi, who was my high school supervisor, because she also became my Ph.D. supervisor, she’s always been someone who's been a big part of my journey and inspiration.
In terms of books, one that I pinpointed might not necessarily be a business book, but is a fictionalized book that reminded me of how powerful story and narrative are by Italo Calvino, and it's called If on a Winter's Night a Traveler. It's this very meta experience of this person who goes to a bookstore and buys a book and opens it up to find that the book inside is not the book on the cover. That is also the journey that you go through as a reader.
His writing and writing style is incredibly captivating. He plays on our relationship to the work, which I love. That approach to business is interesting to me, how we can both identify our customers, but also use storytelling to surprise and delight in a certain way. That's a great book. It's not massively chunky, it's easy to get through.
I watched a documentary on Netflix, The Andy Warhol Diaries, stunning to look at the lives of those creative people and also recognize from business that he also talks about the business of art in that documentary. That is fascinating. It crosses those bridges nicely for me, but also shows again, the humaneness and we all have our demons and things that we need to overcome. I recommend checking that out if you haven't, and pretty much any documentary about an artist is going to blow your mind.
A couple of mantras to maybe add into pop on post-it notes scanner about your house, one that I love is, “Less but better.” Simple to the point. It keeps you focused. Another one that I think about sometimes is every problem is a creative problem. It's every problem is an opportunity to get creative, remember that definition, it's connecting the dots in different ways. You don't have to reinvent the wheel. Is there another bit of information that's missing that you could add to the picture to maybe help solve that problem? That's something I always come back to.
Another one, which I'm sure people also can identify with is when this imposter syndrome pops up. When we dip into comparisonitis. Rob Bell, who has a podcast called The RobCast, talked about it on his podcast. He says that when he dips into that way of thinking, he says to himself, I was like, “I can't do this because so and so have done it,” and then he starts to talk about, “Compared to what?” What are you comparing yourself to?
They're doing something completely different from a different perspective, a different context, and reminding yourself that there's nothing to compare me to, and thinking and asking yourself that question of compared to what, but doing it in a joking way, you're like, I started giggling and I'm like, “What am I comparing myself to?” Things tend to cycle through my brain.
I love that so much. It's so funny. A friend of mine was writing a book and she has since published the book and she was like, “This person put out a book and it's similar.” I was like, “Do you know how many Irish pubs there are in the world? Does somebody go I'm not going to open another Irish Pub because there's already 50 million even though, Ireland is a relatively small population in the actual country?”
Like Melbourne cafes, there's so many but there's so many that will do it differently, and people that like this thing will go to that one, and then it's so true. I loved it as well. This Italo Calvino, I'm going to go and get that book because it sounds right up my alley. I've listened to Matt Haig's book in The Midnight Library. Have you heard of that?
No.
You have to listen to it. This isn't giving it away. This woman has had enough of her life, and she decides to end her life. She goes through the process of killing herself. She ends up in this library, where there are a million books on all the different decisions you could have made in life. She goes in and out, and since I've read it, it has been implanted in my mind that if I do something in business or in life, I'm like, “I'm making that decision, maybe in another life, I've made a different decision.” It's this beautiful book that's nothing to do with business but has impacted my business as well. I imagine that your answer to this would be a long list. What are you most proud of from your journey in business so far?
Put simply, I haven't given up. I’m still here despite it all. Despite the doubt, despite the fear, despite the crappy months of money, despite losing clients, despite sometimes not doing work that lights me up, I'm still here. That's it.
Still going and just helping your world immensely through what you do. I would love to know what's next for you? Where can people connect with you? What's coming up? I did see an exciting speaking gig that you've got coming up.
I’m so flattered. Yeah, speaking of things that absolutely scare the s*** out of me, I'm going to be speaking at NO/BS, which is a conference that will be here in Melbourne, at the end of October, the 26th and 27th of October 2022, at the Forum. Tickets are on sale.
I'm getting it.
Early bird ends on the 31st of July, and they've got digital tickets as well, too. It's a digital reality check. The speaker lineup is just nuts. I had a mini heart attack when it was announced who else was speaking. I'm excited about that. I'm creating an online course, I think you call it that. I've nicknamed it part retreat, part studio, part laboratory called Spiral Up, which is where I'm going to be teaching all these concepts and guiding people through this process of how we can use creativity to grow after trauma.
I'm going on a bit of a digital nomad adventure for the next few months of house-sitting for people. One of the things I realized is that when I think about myself when I'm my most me version when I'm my most authentic is when I’m on the move. I want to experiment and see if I can sustain my business and a life on the road, and just try. I'm going to throw this impostor against the wall, and we'll see what sticks.
Amazing. If anyone's listening to this, and we have readers all over the world, and you're needing a house sitter, get in touch. Maybe she'll be like, “Yeah, I will come to Tahiti.” “My next stop is Egypt? Yeah.” What an amazing way to see the world as well.
Yeah, and I've realized in that default mode, I've had enough security and comfort for the last little while to last me so now, I'm really chasing that freedom and being out in the wild because I know that that's where my most creative moments happen. It’s when I'm out having a life and responding to what's happening. If you want to follow along, I'm at @MarionPiperCreative on Instagram. That's pretty much where I hang out. I've also dabbled in the TikToks. I’m on that, if you're a longtime scroller like I was, more of like a way to play. These next months for me are going to be all about play and experimentation and having a life.
I love that so much. Your website, can people check you out there as well? What is it?
It's MarionPiperCreative.com. There are some other goodies like The Expression Deck you can get there. I've also got a little intro eBook if you're feeling a bit flat and uninspired. That's about practical creativity. Something I put together as a result of things that I've been noticing people going through during the lockdown. A couple of things to grab.
They're amazing. Thank you so much for this. It's always such a pleasure. I also have to shout out to Anna as she listens to this podcast. She’s been the biggest support of my business since I started, and who introduced us years ago and said, “I think Marion would be a great fit for your podcast,” and here you are. Thank you, Anna. Another amazing woman. I want to say thank you so much for sharing your wisdom. Also for being honest and being like, “Yeah, I'm uninspired even though I'm in the business of inspiring people. I also am human, and I sometimes go through being uninspired.”
It's important that we hear from people like that. Even in my Marketing for Your Small Business, I'd be like, “I don't do that.” People are like, “Why not?” I'm like, “Because it doesn't align with me. You don't have to do every single marketing thing that's out there.” Being transparent and honest has helped so many people, plus, of course, all your wisdom. Thank you so much.
Thank you for having me. It's been an absolute treat. Bye.
Bye.
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We're all just taking a big sigh of relief reading that. The wisdom and the ideas, the beauty that comes out of Marion Piper's mouth are extraordinary. It's such a pleasure to talk to her anytime, but especially to have her on the podcast and be able to share her message with so many people. One, thank you for reading. Also, thank you, Marion, for coming on.
There are so many things that I could take away and that I will take away from that conversation with Marion. So many stood out, that it was hard to narrow it down but I'm going to highlight two. I would love to know what you took away from that, so please don't be a stranger, you can send me a DM at @MyDailyBusinessCoach. I'm sure Marion would love to hear from you as well, you can send her a DM, she's @MarionPiperCreative.
The two things that stood out for me, one is this crisis of meaning and the concept and analogy of this dropped vase, and being able to not just stare at the dropped vase, not just stare at the shards and be like, “It's all over. I'm never going to be able to fix it. It's so bad.” To either make the decision to rebuild it and build it into something else, something different, maybe a mosaic around a mirror, who knows, or to have the courage. Each of those is courageous, but to go, “I'm going to sweep it up. I'm going to start again completely with nothing. I'm going to start from scratch.” Either of those options is great.
Marion talks about that, but I loved that concept because a lot of people are grappling with how do we keep moving forward when it just seems to be hit after hit? In 2020, at least, from my perspective in Melbourne, it doesn’t seem different from lots of people's perspectives. Also, I'm one of the very few people I'm sure that has not got COVID yet, so knock on wood. Although, my sister thinks that I've probably already had it. I'm such a hermit that I didn't notice.
In 2020, it was really scary. It was full on. The whole world seems to be going to hell in a handbasket. 2021, it felt like, “Good. Things are going get better,” and then they didn't. 2022, it's like this realization of like, “Okay, this is life. This is normal now.” This is the new normal and not new normal in some sort of novelty way, but this is actually it, and we're going to keep getting hit with this stuff. How do we move forward? I love that idea of the bars. I love that concept of what is meaningful right now for me, what do I need to move forward and which pieces will I take with me into this next chapter of our lives?
The second thing I loved, it goes with the way that I work with my clients and the whole way that I've set up my business as well with the alignment between values and beliefs and everything is when she spoke about people that have been employed have been trained to put your work first, and then your life somehow flips in around your work. I see it all the time.
If you've got a dental appointment or something else, you have to figure it out. “How's that going to work with work first?” Maybe you want to go surfing and it has to be on the weekend, or it has to be around that 9 to 5 that you work. I love the idea that she said, “When you start a business, you don't want to take that mindset in with you,” even though most people do, I would say. You want to flip it and be like, “What is the life that I want, and then how do I create a business that is aligned to the life that I want?”
That is what I went through. The reason that I started my business with that mindset, even though I'd been an employee for so long, was down to a workshop that I'd gone to where it was about your life purpose and what you want and all these things. I remember going “What? Nothing that I want is happening right now.” I just remember the woman at the end of that workshop, when I had to read out what I'd written down and I said, “I so want this life. I can't tell you how much I want this life.” She was like, “You're the only one standing in your way.”
She didn't say it in some flippant way. I was like, “You are so right.” I have the incredible privilege and incredible opportunity, especially living here in Australia to have that idea of like, “I don't like where I'm at and I want to change and I'm going to change.” I love that concept. It's possible anywhere to think about what is the life I want to have? How then does my business work in a line meant for that goal of the life that I want to have?
Of course, like everything, none of this is set in concrete. Marion made that clear. These things are going to change, maybe the life that you want when you start your business, it's very different to the life you want five years later. Maybe you've changed in your lifestyle, you've moved into a different country, you've moved into a different stage of life. Maybe you've got other people in your family, or you started a family, all sorts of things, but I love that idea of like, “What's the life that you want first?” How can you create a business that supports that?
Quite often, you'll see the hashtags #LifeByDesign and #BusinessByDesign. I remember I used to use that a lot when I started in 2016 and 2017. I was always using that hashtag, but that's what people are searching for. That's what people want overall. It's a reminder, even if you're in business, even if you've set your business up and you think, “It's too late now.” It's never too late. You can always change things and mend things.
Move things around so that it serves your life purpose, rather than it's a business and then I've got to somehow figure out myself to fit into the business. You are in control of that. We often forget that as business owners. There was so much that I took from that interview. I know that you will as well. I'm going to share this with so many people. I'm going to even put it on WhatsApp for my book club. She just gave so much truth, knowledge, and wisdom.
That is it for this episode. If you would like to contact Marion and everyone should because she is just lovely, and maybe you've got a place for her to stay in when she's doing her around the world house sitting expo. Her Instagram is @MarionPiperCreative. You can also find her MarionPiperCreative.com. Definitely go and check out all the resources and all the wisdom. Marion is just a wealth of information.
Again, I want to say a massive thank you to Anna Gowers for introducing us years ago and also just for Anna. She has been such a huge supporter of this business. She is one of those women that you just want to be. Always positive, always upbeat, the best fashion style ever. Massive thank you to Anna Gowers for introducing and connecting us. It's a lovely thing for people to do that for each other, so thank you, Anna.
Thank you so much for listening. If you found this episode useful, make sure you hit subscribe so you don't miss out on any other interviews that I do with such interesting people around the world. If you did find it really helpful, please leave a review. It helps us get found by other small business owners and who knows, they probably need the wisdom of Marion as well. See you next time. Bye.
