Episode 462: How Sophie Gilliatt and Katherine Westwood of The Dinner Ladies Built a Food Empire While Raising Kids
In this episode you'll learn:
Why maintaining product quality is more valuable than marketing for long-term success
How to grow a business while balancing family life and personal commitments
The importance of focusing on customer needs over rapid expansion
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“Laser focus on quality control. Absolutely. Never allowing that to slip away from you understanding profoundly that that is the most important thing that there is in the business. And the minute we let that go, the whole thing is going to go belly up. So we know that that's why our business was successful, because we didn't come from a, sort of manufacturing, professional food background. We cooked it exactly as you would cook it at home, and we expect it to taste as you cook it at home. So that's the absolute core of the business. And the minute we lose sight of that is the minute this business will not exist anymore.” - Katherine Westwood
Fiona Killackey: Do you love your life as a small business owner? Let's be real. Sometimes we just don't. It's my hope that this the My Daily Business podcast helps you regain a little of that lost love through practical, actionable tips, tools and tactics, interviews with creative and curious small business owners, and in depth coaching episodes with me, your host, Fiona Killackey. With more than 20 years experience in marketing, brand content and systems, and having now helped thousands of small business owners, I know what it takes to build a business that you can be proud of and that actually aligns with your values, your beliefs and your hopes for the future. So much of our daily life is spent working on and in the businesses and the brands that we are creating, and so it makes sense to actually love what you do. So let's get into this podcast and help you figure out how to love your business and your life on the daily hello and welcome to episode 462 of the My Daily Business Podcast. Today you're in for a real treat. I have two just wonderful people on today's podcast talking about their business that they've been running now for almost 20 years. And many of you will be familiar with this business, particularly if you're interested in cooking and food and all things like that. Before we get stuck in, I want to remind you that if you are interested in getting your own book published and it can do wonders for brand authority, you should check out, how to get your book published course and coaching programme that is kicking off in November. So they'll give you so much information to really be able to start 2025 with the understanding of how a book is going to help your business, how it's going to catapult your brand, and how to actually p write and then market your own book. My first book has sold, I think around 15,000 copies. My second book has just come out, I think literally is coming out this week in the US and uk. So check that out business to brand. You can find both of them at our website, mydelibusiness.com you can also find them wherever you usually buy your books. And it has done wonders for my business. And so I just want to take all the knowledge from that also having done a postgrad in book publishing and editing, and bring it to you. We also have people from the publishing industry come into that course to tell you exactly what you should expect and things like what they're looking for in a pitch and why they would say no to some books over others. So if you're interested, you can check that out@mysdailybusiness.com courses. And of course, before we jump into this wonderful interview, I want to acknowledge where I'm coming from and acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians of these beautiful lands. And that for me, is the Woburong and Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation. And I pay my respects to their elders, past and present, and acknowledge that sovereignty has never been ceded. All right, let's get into today's interview episode. This interview, I have to say. You can hear it. I'm smiling already. I was just smiling the whole way through this interview. And I'm sure you will, too. Just the laughter, the camaraderie, the friendship, the honesty. It was just a joy to conduct this interview. And so who am I talking about? I'm talking about Katherine Westwood and Sophie Gilliatt, who together in 2007, co founded the Dinner Ladies. Now, if you have ever tasted their food, you know how absolutely delicious it is. So the Dinner Ladies are, two determined women who had a fiery passion for good food and seven, seven kids between them at very, very early ages, literally newborns, when they decided to come together and create homemade, home tasting, delicious meals that could fill the freezers and fridges of people who needed that help in terms of getting a beautiful, delicious meal out on the table without having to do it all themselves. Now, as a working parent, I absolutely love businesses like this. And also as somebody who's gone through loss, a number of times, and some of the most beautiful gifts in those times have been people sending me, literally, the Dinner Ladies, beautiful food that we've put in the freezer and then being able to bring it out when necessary because, you know, crap happens in your life and you still need to feed the kids, you still need to get dinner on the table, you still need to eat something. And it's just so beautiful. The thought that some of my beautiful, beautiful friends and they know who they are had in sending me parcels of the dinner ladies food. The dinner ladies are, also people that you may well know if you watched My Kitchen Rules and I was very familiar with them from that. My son and I love to watch that show and we watched it, we only got it into it recently, so we kind of have gone back and watched past episodes and we loved them. I absolutely adored them on the screen. I adored the way they cooked. I adored the food, everything. I thought they were fabulous. And so today I also asked them what it's like to go on a reality TV show as a business. Does it actually increase your sales? Does it do what you think as a audience member that it is going to do for your brand? And it's quite surprising what they have to say about that. We also talk about what it's like to work with friends. How do you keep that friendship and, you know, business partnership going for almost two decades and also what it's been like to build this much bigger business. They now have their food going all over Australia. They've just launched into Western Australia and for anyone outside of Australia, that is a five or six hour flight from Melbourne. So we have a huge country. And so how do the logistics work with that and also how do they keep the taste as beautiful and as home cooked tasting as it is when you are creating that stuff en masse? So there's so much in today's chat and I'm just absolutely delighted to bring you this beautiful conversation with Sophie and Katherine from the dinner. Ladies, Sophie and Katherine, welcome to the podcast.
Sophie Gilliatt: Thank you for having us.
Fiona Killackey: Oh, I'm very excited about this. I really am. I was telling us before we hit record that we're big fans of your business in our, lives here in my little family. But yeah. How are you both feeling about life right now?
Sophie Gilliatt: Well.
Katherine Westwood: Well, do you want to go first?
Sophie Gilliatt: Life is very good right now except for one small thing which is my youngest daughter starting her HSC tomorrow. So she's, she's fine. I'm a little bit tense, but other than, other than that, it's all great.
Fiona Killackey: Oh, wow.
Katherine Westwood: And my life is particularly fine because my last child finished their HSC last year, so hallelujah. So life is, very liberated and as this is a business podcast, it's worth mentioning the business and saying our business is all grown up as well. So life is changing for me and Sophie in many ways.
Fiona Killackey: Oh, I am in the thick of it with a 5 year old and 11 year old and part of me that's like, oh, I can't wait for that part to be there. But I know I've got friends who have kids, that age and they're like, yes, but then you want them to be little again. You want them to do as they like.
Sophie Gilliatt: A business.
Fiona Killackey: Yes. And so let's talk about your business. What is your business? What is it? And also, how did you come up with that? How did you decide to turn something you're both passionate and obviously good at into an actual company?
Katherine Westwood: I'll let Sophie tell the story. She does it so much more beautifully than I do.
Sophie Gilliatt: Well, the dinner ladies is a home delivered dinner service we started 17 years ago. And when we started, there really wasn't anything around. There wasn't ubereats, hellofresh, you know, there was basically getting a cookshook from the chicken shop or, you know, bad takeaway. And we were at that stage. We had, I just had my third child and we had, you know, all these little children and so did most of our friends. And I, was in a park with some friends and one of them was going back to work and she had two little children and she said, if you could cook me dinner, I would pay you for it. Because she knew that I enjoyed cooking. And Katherine and I had sort of been talking and thinking, what's the next stage for us? You know, both of us probably didn't want to go back into. We probably didn't want to go back to working for someone else, I think is the key. Because I think suddenly when you're in charge of your own home and you know, you've had babies and you're in charge of these small humans, you don't really want to go and work 9 to 5 with someone else telling you what to do. So we wanted to start something and it just seemed like that could be an idea. So we did start very small. We got a camp stove and put it on an old trailer that Katherine’s husband Perry converted in her backyard shed. And we cooked up two dinners and delivered them to 10 friends. Well, three of my sisters and my mother and a few friends and gave it to them for free and just said, you know, what do you think? And we're going to be cooking again next week and if you like it next week, you'll have to pay for it.
Katherine Westwood: And happily, from those very humble beginnings, we've just grown and grown and grown. I don't think there's really been a week or a month where we've ever really gone backwards in any significant way. So. And, word of mouth has been. Been just fantastic for us. It's just our, product's always been delicious, I have to say. But importantly, I think we, because we're two women, we understand what women need at home. It's not sort of nasty takeaway. It's not food that's going to make them feel unhappy when they sit down and eat it. They want to sit down, enjoy something delicious and nourishing, and try and share the day with their family and just try and get through the evening without everyone, you know, breaking down into a.
Sophie Gilliatt: And how did you.
Fiona Killackey: Did you. What were you doing before this? What was. If you were working, what were you working as? And did you have. Did something from your other career help you go, okay, we can actually turn this into something?
Sophie Gilliatt: Probably, I think, well, definitely for me, my background was as a journalist and a, literary agent. And, so I always worked around sort of communication and words. So when we started, because we were very analogue and didn't have any photographs for anything, it was all selling it through words, so. And also communicating with customers. So that really helped me being able to paint lavish pictures of our food. And Katherine came from a business, television background.
Katherine Westwood: So I would say that experience was, very useful, but probably more. More useful experience for running a business and starting a business was probably the fact that I was on my own financially from a very young age. I had to look after myself financially. So I've always been very good with money, managing money, looking after money, making sure there's enough money m. For the next step. And I have to say, I think I've always loved camping and backpacking. So I'm very practical. I'm very good at, you know, just sort of getting things done and finding practical solutions. So I think it was those skills probably that. That helped me when we started because, boy, oh boy, when you start a small business, you need a lot of talent, a lot of skill, and a lot of, you know, just practical ability. Ability to get things done.
Sophie Gilliatt: Yeah.
Fiona Killackey: And so how did you go from. Okay, we've. So we've. We've given it to. For free to these people. And then the next week, did you just run the numbers? And you're like, okay, so we need to buy this many cucumbers and this much stuff. Like, how did you, from a practical perspective, know what to shop for, how quickly stuff might go off? Like all of this sort of stuff around food. It's food. It's not like T shirts where you're like, okay, if they don't sell, we can just like wait a couple of months and sell them again. This is food that's, that's perishable.
Sophie Gilliatt: Well, we did, we did take our orders before we went shopping. I mean, we were, we did it in a very, very pre order. You were good with pre orders in the old days because we were doing everything fresh. So. And we had a very quick turnaround. We'd shop, we'd cook, then the next day we'd deliver. Well, I'd deliver in the people mover and Katherine would take care of all our children and feed them and bathe them. So, so I'd get back, you know, usually having left the bum bag full of cash at someone's house, and Katherine would at least have had dinner sorted. So that was one thing. And actually, because what we produced was dinner, there was always dinner on the table.
Katherine Westwood: That's right. But I have to say, one of my favourite parts at the very start of the business was figuring out all of those things, those processes, those systems and the math around it. Sophie's tremendously clever and I'm quite good at math. So it was really challenging and really fun trying to figure out, okay, how can we be efficient with this? If we've got this recip serves 2, how can we multiply it up to serve 15 instead? How can we best organise getting shopping list ready? How can we best sort our delivery systems into regions so that we're efficient with everything and not. And our business doesn't collapse because we just spend too much time on small things without being efficient about how to get things out to people.
Sophie Gilliatt: Because, yeah, those were the big learnings at first was learning how to scale recipes, learning how to cook in volume and not end up with masses of liquid or things being overseas. And because like, you put one teaspoon in, you know, a, boeuf bourguignon that's going to serve four people and that's fine of salt, and you multiply that by four to serve 16 people and suddenly it's overwhelmingly salty. So we did a lot of trial and error and learning along the way.
Katherine Westwood: We did so much trial and error.
Fiona Killackey: But there's so much in everything that you've just said, even pre orders, the amount of people that still don't do pre order and they go and buy all of this stock and there's no, no validation that anyone's going to buy it. And you know, your friends will always like, yeah, of course that's A great idea. And it's so nice that just to hear, even from a really practical perspective, we got the money upfront. Even as a service based business, we always charge upfront. But there's so many people that, you know, then people are late payment and they think, well, you could have charged 50% upfront or you could, you know, something. So I think just these. There's so much in that.
Sophie Gilliatt: There's nothing more motivating than putting cash in your pocket from day one.
Fiona Killackey: Yes, totally. And so then you mentioned the kids and you mentioned Katherine kind of getting this cat, you know, this herd of children and looking after them. You have on your website that you had seven kids between the two of you, which is a lot. I have two and that's enough. But what advice would you give if somebody's absolutely in the thick of it, listening to this podcast and thinking, I just can't. Whether they're male, female, you know, non binary. But they've got kids in their life and they are just like, it's just, it's too hard. It is too hard. I've got to give up on my dream. It's not going to work.
Sophie Gilliatt: Do you want to say Katherine?
Katherine Westwood: Well, I'll go first on this one. I say don't worry too much. You know, don't sweat and worry and think you have to be everyone to everyone all the time. Kids don't really, I think, pay so much attention to what you say. They look at what you're doing and if you're satisfied and filled with purpose and around for them, you know, it doesn't matter if you're not there for every single little thing. It really does. They'll forgive, they'll understand and yeah, just don't worry too much. Don't worry too much. If you're, if you feel that you're not emotionally available and I think that's something women in particular get more worried about. But, you know, really just don't worry, don't worry. Do what you think will be good for everyone and don't worry too much.
Sophie Gilliatt: I'd probably also add both. Bringing up children and starting a new business is a time that's full of joy and excitement and, you know, new discovery. But it can also be both of them very stressful. If you're expecting, yeah, perfection, for both, you're doomed to feel torn all the time. So I think also when we started the business, we did start at small and we kept it contained. So when the kids were the youngest were in at daycare two Days a week, we were there two days a week. Once they were at school, five days a week, we were able to go full time. It meant that we, we we didn't stress the business either. So it had time to grow organically. I think if you go out straight from feeling inspired by others and you think you've got to go straight out from the gate and be a massive overnight success and on Instagram, it puts pressure on yourself. You know, I think you can do things a little bit slowly. Like, you know, the Quentin Bryce thing is, you know, that you can have it all, just not all at the same time. So it's just maybe it's a little seesaw every time. And it's also things like, I mean Katherine and I, you know, we would be in the thick of a cooking and one of us would suddenly remember we had to go to a ballet concert of one of our children and we'd rush off because the other one had their back. So that was great. But also we didn't expect to turn up at the ballet concert, you know, in our Zimmerman with our hair blow dried. We turned up absolutely head to toe covered in onions and tomato paste, you know, in our work boots and. But we were there mostly when, when.
Fiona Killackey: We could be and at least coming like that, people might ask, what have you been doing? And then they can smell it.
Katherine Westwood: They knew what your business.
Fiona Killackey: Yeah. And so on that. How did you two meet? I haven't asked that. Were you friends from school? How did you know?
Katherine Westwood: We met because our two oldest children made best friends in kindergarten. So we were thrown together a lot. And anyway, I was very grateful to be thrown together with Sophie and not some dreary.
Fiona Killackey: Obviously like you two have a great friendship and you're, you know, still laughing and big together and all of that. Unfortunately, I've worked with a number of businesses where it's been a lot of friction and tension between friends who then go into business or, you know, I had one couple once and 25 year friendship that was really hindered by a business decision that one of them had made. How have you grown as business owners but also mums and you know, you've got these lives and personal stuff that you probably want to talk about. And then you've also got business and you've got staff and you've got logistics. Like how have you maintained that friendship for so long?
Katherine Westwood: So I think I can talk to that. I can only speak for myself and I'm sure I speak for Sophie as well when I say there have been occasions where we've wanted to throttle each other. But I've always had nothing but the most deep and profound respect for Sophie's talent and her work ethic and her honesty. So as long as you've got that foundation of, you know, true understanding of someone who is absolutely, you can rely on them. They're committed to the business and they're intelligent and they bring a lot to the business. Anything else is just, I don't know, grit on the road or moth on the rock or, you know what I mean, it doesn't really matter. But as long as you have a fundamental respect, then you can get through the. There'll always be arguments, always. But you can get through them. And it's healthy to have arguments as well and have difference of opinion. And you know, I know that there are a lot of people that get to appear a long period of time and they just go a long look, I can't do it anymore. But again, Sophie and I are in a happy position now where we've got a management team running the business so we don't really have to have day to day sort of discussions, shall we.
Sophie Gilliatt: Call it.
Fiona Killackey: I love this. And Sophie, would you add anything to that?
Sophie Gilliatt: Yeah, I would definitely agree with Katherine. I think the fact that we're two very different individuals means we've always respected what the other one brings to the business. And I think that prioritising the business itself means that even when things, you know, aren't as rosy in our relationship or there are other things that are going on in our lives, as long as we still prioritise the business and that we've always done. And I think that's, I mean it's very akin to a marriage, you know, if you see the marriage as its own separate entity that needs protection, that its own bubble, you can push some other things aside.
Fiona Killackey: So yeah, and when you were starting and you were cooking in this camp oven and then, and then obviously it's grown and grown and grown and you've got staff. Was there a time that you sat down and went, okay, Sophie has this career in communication, so she's going to handle all the marketing or the publicity or you know, like, did you sit down and then go, and Katherine’s going to look after the finance? Like, did you break up your roles at some point or was it just very organic?
Sophie Gilliatt: Very organic.
Katherine Westwood: We broke up our role, but I.
Sophie Gilliatt: Don'T think it was ever deliberate. I think, it did evolve through our strengths and our experience. Yeah.
Katherine Westwood: But I think we both Had a very clear idea of that from the very beginning. And we've never, for instance, argued about it or thought, I want to be doing something else. I mean, you know, we both know what our own strengths are and recognise that in each other. So, yeah, it's never been a, source of conflict, really.
Sophie Gilliatt: When a pipe was blocked, I never was putting my hand up saying, I'm going to go and find the source of the blockage. And Katherine was already rolling up her sleeves and doing a deep dive.
Fiona Killackey: oh, I love this. And so outside of, okay, so you started with friends and they started buying and then obviously your food, and we've been recipients of your food and it does taste delicious. And my husband was also like, oh yeah, they're the people that cooked one or two particular meals. And I was like, yes. And he's like, oh, so good, so good. So obviously the taste is part of a word of mouth and referral because people are going to go, this is delicious. And especially if they're sharing that meal with friends. But what else did you do to grow it? Because you've grown phenomenally and you're all, well, you're about to be all over Australia, I think. Am I allowed to say that?
Sophie Gilliatt: Yes, yes.
Katherine Westwood: Starting in launch in Western Australia.
Fiona Killackey: Yay. Which is huge. And so how have you marketed. We were talking before we hit record about one particular way that it was marketed. But what other things have you done outside of your TV appearance that other people may know you for?
Katherine Westwood: Not a lot, it has to be said. So to grow the business up to get to be a substantial concern, really it was word of mouth. I mean, obviously we got onto social media, we figured out how to do that, we figured out how to take pictures. But really what we focused on always, always was making sure the food was great, the service was good and, you know, as long as you've got those things right, really you don't have to do a lot of marketing. You know, the product sells itself. I mean, obviously as we get bigger now, we want to get in front of more people, so we do more serious professional marketing. Really in the early days we did a, we tried to make ourselves visible in the sort of most cost effective ways that we could, but really we relied on just making sure we had a great service and great food.
Fiona Killackey: Oh my goodness. And so when did you realise, or at what point did you go, okay, we've got the locals and we've got, you know, maybe friends and family and school, moms and dads, but when did you Go. Okay, this is bigger than, it's bigger than a local little delivery service. This is going to be big.
Sophie Gilliatt: Look, I think we thought it was going to be big from day one, as soon as we started because we were always talking as we chopped and plucked and thinking about the next stage. And also because there wasn't a lot around in those days. No one said, when we said, we're cooking dinner like home cooked food and we deliver it to you, no one said, I don't get that. Like everyone said, I could use that. So there was that. We realised that there really was a need for it and that we could fulfil that need. I think the moment that we looked, because we used to write all the orders down in a, you know, in a book that we've still got somewhere. And I think it was when we first saw people's names in. I was like, Katherine, do you know this person? She's like, no, I don't know that person. But they live in Lilyfield. And I think realising that there were people who had no idea who we were personally who were ordering from us, it was so exciting. It was kind of weird and made us suddenly have to become much more professional. Because you're dealing with other people's expectations. They're not just thinking all that nice. Sophie and Katherine, they're expecting a professional service and we aimed to deliver.
Fiona Killackey: Yeah. And then when did you hire the first person? When did you go, okay, we need somebody else? And also, what was that role?
Katherine Westwood: So, I'm happy to say that, I mean we had a couple of very temporary dishwashers, but our very first real employee was a guy called Shen Wei who came to us. He'd arrived in Australia, he was a student and he came to wash dishes and help us out in the kitchen. And he came to us when we were first started working in the shed outside the back of my house. And that was his job, one day a week to come and do all the clearing up, wash the dishes. He's grown with us steadily and steadily over the years. So he then started working for us two days a week and then when we were full time, he came on board full time. He's now our, operations manager. I won't reveal his salary, but he's bought a house in Sydney and got married and is raising two children on the, you know, fantastic job that he now has with us. That's serious. He's got a lot of responsibilities and he's really, really grown in the role. So I know it's, it's one of the things that makes me happiest when we can, you know, provide real quality, great jobs for people where they can learn a lot, you know, get on and raise families.
Fiona Killackey: Yeah. And how amazing. And what a testament to your work culture that people want to stay around for that long, you know, because a lot of people don't want to stay in a job, especially hospitality is. That's a very well known for churn and burn. You know, people burning out. Too much expectation, too much pressure. And for someone to stick around and then want to grow with the company is a testament to what you've built.
Sophie Gilliatt: We're very lucky. We do have quite a few key employees that have been with us for a long time. And we, you know, we celebrate so when someone's been there for 10 years, and it's invaluable because they carry the DNA of the, you know, the culture of the company from, from those early days. And it means that everyone, even if they've just started last year or, you know, they're much more recent, they very soon understand the way we do things at dinner, lady. And the way we treat each other and the way we treat our customers so we don't have to do that. That's now part of the culture of the company.
Fiona Killackey: Oh, my goodness. So, one of the things as well is that you started this business in your 40s. Now I'm in my 40s and I hear from people all the time in their 30s or even I have a beautiful client who's in her 20s who was like, do you think it's too late? And I was like, absolutely not. And I have had three clients recently in their 60s, which is really fascinating because they've been talking about, I don't want to just retire and go and play tennis. I want to keep this business going. But, you know, the financial needs are different to what it was when I first started. And so how do I keep something going? And what does the next 10, 15, 20 years look like in my business? So what advice would you have for somebody who's listening to this, who's in their 40s like you were, and thinking it's too late, like it's just, it's not going to happen?
Katherine Westwood: I would say life is long. It's really remarkably long. And if you take care of yourself, you can live a very long, very happy, very successful life. So. And I say that to my children as well. I mean, I've got children now who are starting to look for a job and they get stressed out if they can't find a job. And I say don't worry about it really. You know, life is long and there's so much potential and so much opportunity specifically for women as you get older in life. I mean I, think women used to get thrown on the scrappy really a lot. Speak kindly to yourself and just say I can do it and don't give yourself negative self talk. Just, just, you know, it's amazing what you can achieve as long as you just set your mind to it and age really doesn't matter.
Fiona Killackey: Yeah, I completely agree and I think it's hard because so much of social media. So I've been in marketing for 23 years and well before social media came up. And I think so many people see social media one as the only way to market your business. But also they see it as, oh, but there's so many young people and they know how to use a video and they know how to use the phone better than me and they're going to get ahead. When I love when you guys talked about we focus so much on the product and the taste and if that was good, you know, that has nothing to do with how many followers you have on social media or what age you are or anything. And so the other thing I wanted to ask is lots of people start a business with this idea of like filling a gap in the market, which you've done and you do the home cooking, you know obviously very well. How do you keep that vision and also the actual taste of home cooking when you are scaling it and you've got more people working and different people and different systems. And now you're getting it all the way over to wa, which for anyone listening outside of Australia, and we have a lot of global listeners, Western Australia is a five hour flight on an aeroplane from Melbourne. So, you know, it is easier for me to go to another country like New Zealand than to go to the other side of the country in Australia. How do you keep that home cooking, that vision, the authenticity of the two.
Katherine Westwood: Of you when you're expanding laser focus on quality control. Absolutely. Never allowing that to slip away from you understanding profoundly that that is the most important thing that there is in the business. And the minute we let that go, the whole thing is going to go belly up. So we know that that's why our business was successful because we didn't come from a, sort of manufacturing, professional food background. We cooked it exactly as you would cook it at home and we expect it to taste as you cook it at home. So that's the absolute core of the business. And the minute we lose sight of that is the minute this business will not exist anymore.
Sophie Gilliatt: And I shudder to think of it. But in the early days we used to do fresh and frozen. Well, first we started out with fresh and then we did fresh and frozen. And when we started expanding beyond Sydney, we could only offer frozen to people that were further afield. In Sydney, we did delivery runs that had fresh and frozen in the same delivery. So delivery windows were really tight. It gave us unbelievable complexity in everything. Beginning of COVID we made the decision to go fully frozen, which means that we can continue to operate out of one premises so we can keep an absolute eye on quality. If you had premises, you know, dotted around the country, it would be much harder to do that. And I think also I think we've got to say we've got an incredible food team that not only comes up with, and they're all women with children, which, you know, I'm not saying that, that they have to be, but they do happen to be. So they really understand what our customers want, they understand home cooking, they understand flavour as well as being up on trends and. But they, they can come up with a recipe that tastes like homemade and then they pull it apart and make it into all different components that then can be followed at scale in the kitchen and assembled into something that tastes like the original dish. And it's genius. But it's why we can. You wouldn't be able to follow our recipes now. They look nutso, but the taste is exactly the same because the ingredients are the same. The basic way we cook is the same. And because we're frozen, we don't have to fill things with preservatives or, you know, emulsifiers or anything. It's. It is literally how we cook. It goes in the freezer, comes out.
Katherine Westwood: Nature's preservative. I know. And just like the old fashioned equivalent of a casserole delivered to your house in a time of crisis.
Fiona Killackey: Yeah. And on that scaling then this is a question that comes up a lot, particularly with product based businesses where there is a. So you would have multiple audiences, but one of your audiences may be people who've been with you from the start, love what you do and just keep ordering it. Or people who decide. But let's say especially for busy families, let's say between when their kids are three and when their kids are 13, they're going to get dinner ladies multiple times during the Week. That's what they eat. So you have this group that love what you do and are like, we want this type of, you know, we want the lasagna, we want this vegetable sausage rolls, we want this, we want that. We don't really want you to change too much because we like what you have. Or likewise, if people are sending it as gifts and then someone's like, oh, I remember that they had the vegetarians flossy drawers, so I want to go and get them again. How do you scale and keep the things that people know you for, but also bring in enough variety that the people who are ordering all the time might say, oh, yeah, cool, I'm not sick of it yet. Like, how do you walk that balance?
Sophie Gilliatt: We started that from a very, like, very early on. We had a range that we called our favourites and then we had a couple of new dishes every week to keep things interesting. And, because we know the way we eat at HM home, you know, of course you have to, like, it's Tuesday, so we have tacos, we have, you know, Wednesday. We usually schnitzel, whatever. Fridays are burger nights. So you've got those things in place. But, you know, you actually sort of run screaming from the building. If you only had that. You still need that excitement. And I think that even when people are ordering the lasagna, the butter chicken, the cottage pie, they like to see more interesting things on the menu or more, you know, and then they might try them and then suddenly they become a favourite.
Fiona Killackey: So.
Sophie Gilliatt: So we've always, yeah, had that balance and I think it, I think it really works because it's really the way most of us like to eat. You know, a mixture between the familiar and the adventurous.
Fiona Killackey: Yeah. Let's talk about mkr. and I was saying before this that I watched that with my son and he was absolutely adored you and when I told him that you're coming on the podcast, he was completely starstruck. He was like, I'm going to watch this after when I get home from school today. Yeah. And I was surprised when you said, you know, what you said before we hit record. But how did it help or hinder the business and what was it like to put yourselves out there in such a public way? So MKR is my kitchen rules for anyone outside of Australia. It is on primetime tv, it is absolutely adored by people and it is a competition kind of cooking show. And you guys went all the way through to the end, I'm pretty sure. Very close.
Katherine Westwood: We got through to semi finals, so we were and we did scored the highest in our round. So it was funny. The producers approached us and said, would you like to appear on this show? And you know, marketing is really expensive. So when of course we run a food business, we're getting in front of half a million people, who are supposedly interested in food. So for us it was a no brainer. We just thought, yeah, of course, good grief, free marketing, who wouldn't do that? And bizarrely, I mean I still look back and I still can't believe it. While we were on mkr, the website traffic shot up. You know, we got a lot of views on the website and our sales stayed the same. It did not translate really, it did not translate into sales at all. So it just go back to the point we made before. The only thing that sells food is if the food is delicious and the service is good. And if you're building a business, you really have to be dedicated to serving your customers and delivering a great product year in, year out, relentlessly. Suddenly bedazzling, appearing on some show or developing a small amount of celebrity is not really going to make that much of an impact on whether people are willing to put their hands in their pocket and fork out for a product that may or may not be okay. So I think it was a profoundly valuable lesson for Sophie and I in how little, I mean obviously it works for the Kardashians, they can flog it all the back of their celebrity. But really at the end of the day when you're running a business, don't imagine for a second that sort of, brush with celebrity is going to really help you. It might help a bit, it might, you know, people might sort of recognise you or remember you a bit more. But really in terms of long term sale and long term the building of a functional great business, it's really not going to have that much impact. So sorry if that's bursting anyone's bubble.
Fiona Killackey: No, I think it's fascinating and it's so interesting because whenever I talk to people about marketing, we talk about brand building and money making and that sometimes the two crossover, but a lot of the time they are separate. You know, you're telling people about a sale or you've got something, it's completely money making. And then other times, you know, you're going on a podcast and we can't guarantee, hopefully this helps you guys, but you just don't know. And so it's really important that you were looking at things like conversion and not just traffic because you could have Been like, oh my God, we're going to be bazillionaires. Because this traffic has shot up on that in terms of understanding the business. And obviously you both have complementary backgrounds for running a business, but were there any books or mentors or have you participated in, I don't know, any kind of networking groups or anything that has helped you run this business and scale it to where you have.
Sophie Gilliatt: Katherine’s done a bit of networking. There's definitely a few people who have really helped us along the way, but there have been individuals, I mean, I've read my share of business books and you take a little bit and you, you know, you get some wisdom with it. One of the people who really helped us from day one, both practically and as inspiration, was a guy called Dave McGuinness, who's a good mate and he founded Bourke Street Bakery. And first of all he gave us our first fridge, which was a big help. But also they'd started three years before us and I think seeing the way they'd, they had such a strong identity from day one, they never looked over their shoulder at competitors. They just concentrated on excellent product, great service and the fact that when we went to look at our first rental premises, they said, don't rent something until you can already cover that rent. And it was very simple, very practical advice and we've actually lived by it ever since. Like we, we never take the next step until we can already cover that next step. You're not sort of, you know, if you build it, they will come because. It's. Yeah. Make sure they come first and then build it.
Fiona Killackey: Yes. Oh absolutely. And then in terms of tech tools or systems, like what has helped you and even when you said before, we've been able to stand back a little bit from this and we have this management group that's looking after things. When and how did that come into play? And then. Yeah, any tech tools or systems or things that you just could not run the dinner ladies without?
Sophie Gilliatt: how long have you got? We, we are very technologically advanced company. We've got an incredible IT team. We really are, we really are. For a couple of fairly analogue girls, it's pretty surprising what we have now and because it's very complex because we're both, you know, we're manufacturers and we're distributors and we're packages and we're, you know, so there's a lot, a lot going on and everything needs to speak to each other. So that's been a tremendous help bringing in A management team. That really happened. I just make sure this is okay with Katherine before this is, is going on. Yep. But really our biggest change came with COVID Before then we had a big team of people cooking and delivering and packing, but we were pretty much masterminding everything, working out logistics, working out, you know, who should do what. When Covid came and it was just the most extraordinary learning experience, we, there was a huge surge in demand and we could have sold cardboard boxes and insulation and people would have eaten them. You know, it was just, they just wanted something delivered. So we suddenly had a big influx of volume and we had a lot more money and we were actually able to invest in people and that was what we started to do. And that was, that was remarkable, wasn't it Katherine?
Katherine Westwood: Yeah, yeah, no, it really was. I know for the first time we got a finance director, we got a head of it you know, that was absolutely life changing, particularly the it, it has to be. I mean you, everyone who's come and joined us since then, you know, we now have a chief operations officer who is fantastic and a chief marketing officer who also does, you know, real marketing. And our food director is, you know, she's really stepped up, she's been with us for a very long time but she's really, really stepped up as well. So we've got such a professional team who all actually specialise in their areas and it's really transforming the business now as opposed to Sophie and I, who we're very good, have a go heroes. But you know, it's until you actually start to get a team of specialists, that's when you can really start to take off as a business.
Fiona Killackey: Yeah. Wow. And so with that we've had lots of people on the podcast talking about this, but one of the things recently we had Phoebe from Sage and Claire and she was talking about in Covid as well and how just, you know, homewares shot up but that sometimes people think, oh, you're doing so well, you know, because you're, you know, selling so much. But if you don't have the systems and the logistics and the warehousing and all the things to get it out on time, then people also get frustrated. So you've kind of got this double edged sword and you're doing so well, but you're also like, ah, we're annoying people because we haven't got this system completely set up. And she was, you know, they've completely changed everything now to do as well as they, as they can and people are Happy. But with that, did you, did you panic at all in Covid, like, even though it was going so well, were.
Katherine Westwood: You like, yeah, first week of COVID I mean, the first two weeks of COVID were like nothing else I ever want to live through in my entire life. I mean, you know, it was as Sophie's described. We had a monumental surge in business. But at the same time, what was absolutely killing was that every single food, restaurant, cafe, not any restaurants and cafes, food businesses that supplied cruise ships or sporting stadiums, all suddenly had the rug pulled out from underneath them. All of these staff, everyone was in an absolute panic thinking, how am I going to meet my commitments? How am I going to make my mortgage? How am I going to do everything? So we were one of the only food businesses still functioning. So we literally had people banging on the door saying, please, please, can I have a job? Please, please, can. What can I do? So it was not just overwhelming in terms of what we had to deliver to our customers. It was overwhelming in terms of the rest of the industry and what they went through at that time. It was. I still get goosebumps thinking about it. Anyway, thankfully, in time, things settled down. But that first month of COVID was like nothing else I would ever want to live through in my life. And I'm sure Sophie would concur as.
Sophie Gilliatt: I was at home with a husband who had Covid. No, we were early adopters.
Fiona Killackey: How did you get through that? Was it just like, okay, just one foot in front of the other or what?
Katherine Westwood: Literally, one foot in front of the other. We just had to just hope for the best. Fingers crossed, you know, find anyone that we could to do any job. Turnover into 24 hour, you know, packing, pull people in, you know, suddenly throw them into jobs that they hadn't done before, had an experience of, you know, and hope for the best. The staff who were there were able to quickly, you know, on the job, train other people. I mean, but everyone rose to the challenge. And I think, in a way, everyone. Everyone could see that the whole world was changing, and so everyone had their challenges in front of them. So in a way, I guess it was our team had a happier challenge than other people who were just suddenly thrown into, you know, the houses and couldn't do anything. So, yeah, no, anyway, we got through it. Thank the Lord.
Fiona Killackey: Totally, you got through it. And so. So on this, you're 17 years in, so your child, Sophie, who's about to start hse, was that the last, latest, the third child you had, she.
Sophie Gilliatt: Was A baby when we started.
Fiona Killackey: Yeah.
Katherine Westwood: Youngest dinner lady's child.
Sophie Gilliatt: Yes.
Fiona Killackey: Wow.
Sophie Gilliatt: So it is a, it's a. Yeah, it's a very fitting journey. Like her 17 years has, you know, mirrored the dinner ladies.
Fiona Killackey: Yeah. And so with that 17 years, I work with people across the board who've had 20 or 32 years in business and then people who are just starting and sometimes the people that are starting will think, oh, well, the people in business, they just must love their business and it's all set up and they're established. But, you find a lot of people are either feeling complacent or just a bit over it. Ten years into their business or 15 years in, how have you kept up the approach and the positivity towards your business?
Katherine Westwood: So I think Sophie and I are in the very happy and very fortunate position in that. Like Sophie just said, the growth of our business has mirrored the growth of our children, really. So it started out very small, very intense, a lot of work. Work, you know, got into the teenage years where you had, you know, other challenges that you had to face. But now really it's a, it's a grown up business. So it's a delight to have them around. You know, you're not responsible for them all the time. You don't have to sort of worry about them all the time. They're standing on their own two feet. And yet it's such a happy, positive thing. So I think we've never got bored or, I mean, speaking for myself, but I'm sure Sophie would agree we've never got bored or complacent or thought. Thought, because it's always been growing and always been changing. So. And happily we have always grown so that we've never gone through really the awful declining business. You know, things going downhill, having to wind things up or. We've never gone through that happily. So, yeah, no, it's. We've been blessed and we've worked hard for it too. So, we've been very fortunate.
Sophie Gilliatt: Amazing.
Fiona Killackey: And so as we come to the end of our chat, I always ask people this, so I'd love to know from each of you, what is the thing you're most proud of about the business to date?
Sophie Gilliatt: Well, I think I would probably say, and it sort of echoes what Katherine was just saying, which is a bit like parenting. Paradoxically, you're most proud when you can let go. And I think you know that my sister once gave my mom a card saying the most important thing a parent can give you is roots and wings. And I think that's with the business is we, you know, we have given it the roots and now it has wings and we can watch it fly. So I think, you know, you miss a bit the, intensity and excitement of being hands on. But it has to be able to stand on its own two feet. And that does make you extremely proud when you can do that.
Katherine Westwood: Yeah, that's right. And no, I completely agree with everything Sophie's just said. And I think I'm most proud of just the value and the jobs and the service we provide. And you know, someone once said, oh, God, you're being so schmaltzy and annoying. But the joy that we bring to people because, you know, a lot of people do use our service during times that are challenging in many different ways. And, you know, just being able to help people out when they're in times that can be difficult, Rewarding, it's, it's very, very, very, very rewarding.
Fiona Killackey: Oh, my goodness. And you totally have. And I was saying before we hit record that we were gifted the dinner ladies food a few times after the death of both of my parents and, and also my husband's father, my father in law, a couple of years ago. So, yeah, and it just makes the world of difference when that is one less thing to stress about, you know, and it's delicious. It tastes really lovely as well.
Sophie Gilliatt: And I think there is something about being cared for, you know, when, when, when you're caring for another person, you're caring for young children, or when you've just suffered a bereavement to feel that someone's looking after you in the way that, you know, your mum might have done. That's sort of what we try to do and I think it comes through in the food.
Fiona Killackey: Oh, absolutely, absolutely. So it's been such a joy to talk to you both. What is next for the dinner ladies? And also when people are listening to this, how can they best connect and buy the food? And especially those people over at wa. But yeah, where can they connect and what's next?
Katherine Westwood: Well, I think the big thing that's coming up next is our launch in wa. We're really excited about that because I know it's a fabulous place, wa, and hopefully we can get over and do a bit of promotions so, so people can find us on dinnerladies.com it's pretty easy to find us there.
Sophie Gilliatt: And Instagram and Facebook.
Katherine Westwood: Facebook and all of those places.
Sophie Gilliatt: Oh, and TikTok.
Fiona Killackey: Oh, yay, I love this. And TikTok. TikTok's great.
Katherine Westwood: Yeah. No, but going nationwide, that's a big thing for us. And who would have thunk it 17 years ago when we chopped our first onion in the garage that one day we would truly be a nationwide business and a brand?
Sophie Gilliatt: We thunk it.
Fiona Killackey: Oh, thank you so much for your time and, yeah, I can't wait to see how it continues to grow.
Sophie Gilliatt: Thank you so much.
Katherine Westwood: It was very nice to meet you.
Fiona Killackey: You too. Oh, how lovely are, Sophie and Katherine. Honestly, I could have talked to them for so much longer and I was smiling the whole time. I just think their laughter, their friendship, it's just a wonderful thing to be around. So if you would like to check out more about the dinner ladies, then you can always find them and discover their delicious food at www. Dinnerladies.com and we'll link to that in the show notes. You can also go check them out on Instagram under, thedinnerladies, all one word. And we'll link to that in the show notes, which for this particular episode you'll find@my dailybusiness.com podcast 462. All right, I'm going to point out two things that stood out, as always amongst so many. The first is just their absolute dedication to the taste, to the product, to making sure that the product is as good as it possibly can be. And I love that they talked about all these different marketing activities and all this other stuff that they've done. But essentially the biggest thing that's helped them is that they have an incredible product and they have never veered away from making it beautiful and tasty and feeling like it's home cooked. Even if it's going all over the country and to so many different homes, it feels as if somebody has just cooked it just for you. And I think that they've known, they've been really clear on who they're actually trying to work with in this business, who is buying this, who needs it, and what it should feel like, what it should essentially give a, an experience when somebody's having the dinner ladies. And they've been so concentrated and fixated on that and haven't veered from it and haven't changed direction. That that is what they're known for. That's what people love, and that is why they're doing as well as they have. The other thing that I really liked is that they talked about growing in line with what they could do at a certain time. So, you know, we often hear about Seasons of Life and the sandwich generation is really people that are, you know, often in their 40s and 50s, where they've got young children or teenagers and then they also have ageing parents. And you're kind of this sandwich generation in the middle of having to deal with a lot. And whether you have children or not, you may have other people's children in your life. You've got, you know, nephews and nieces and just that caring element, regardless of whether they're your kids or somebody else's children, that being in your life and then ageing parents. And again, it may not even be your parents. It could just be family, friends that are, you know, going through a lot, cancer, also other diagnoses. And it can feel sometimes that your life is pulling you away from the things that maybe you want to achieve in your business. And that's okay. And I love that they talked about, we grew this business as we could. We didn't start off from day one with all this stuff and all of these logistics and getting it all around the country. We started off with, okay, let's sell it to our friends and family and people at school. And then, okay, they're getting the word out and now we're selling it a bit bigger and we're going a bit wider. And now, you know, 17 years later, they're going to Western Australia, which is like, may as well be another country. It's so far away from, you know, where they are in Sydney. And so it's taken bit by bit, and each time they've talked about, okay, we started in our backyard and then we expanded and then we did this, but we did it as we could would. We didn't try and bite off way more than we could chew. And I think there's a really big lesson in that. I know I work with people all the time, that it could be young children, it could be an ageing parent, it could be their own health, chronic health conditions, that sometimes feels as if, ah, I've got so much on my plate and I'm trying to also build this business. And sometimes you're just in a season where you just do not have as much time as, say, somebody else who doesn't have to deal with a chronic health condition or doesn't have to deal with this. And so you just absolutely cannot compare yourself. But you also have to remind yourself what is most important. They were able to be really hands on parents as well and hands on friendship. And they have this incredible friendship that's lasted so long as well. I just love that idea that we have done it the way that has suited us and suited our, lifestyle and suited what we were also trying to do outside of work work, because that is something I'm super keen on and super focused on stressing to people, is that your business, you know, supports your life. Your life shouldn't just support your business. You were there for a long time well after, you know, you sell your business or move on or whatever else and you've been there before you started your business and your family or your friends have been there as well. So really concentrate on what's important. But also don't berate yourself for not going zero to a hundred straight away. You can grow your business in whatever way that you want to grow it. And I love that they talked about just doing it their way and taking it bit by bit and understanding what the next step was and not necessarily diving off before they knew what they were going to do and how they were going to do it. And I love in that same way that they talked about their staff member who's now their, their manager of operations. And that person started off, you know, coming in and helping them clean up. And so again that person has developed and grown with the business and they've got other people that have been there for a long time as well and everyone has grown and it's just been this sort of organic, you know, yes, they've worked really hard but they have organically grown it as well. I just love that. I had so many thoughts and I was just digesting that chat for days after I had it. So I really hope that it's brought you a lot of insights and maybe ideas around your business, your life, what else you're trying to do. Friendship, all the things. There was so much in that conversation and I just want to say a massive thank you again to Sophie and Katherine from the dinner ladies for just coming on and just sharing so openly, so vulnerably. And yeah, it's just made me like them even more. So if you want to check them out again, you can go to dinner ladies.com au and if you are in Australia and you want to check it out or you want to send it to somebody because maybe somebody is going through something really hard and just having a home cooked meal, something easy that they can prepare is really going to mean the world to them at the moment. Go and check it out. They're amazing. And go and support the incredible Sophie and Katherine. You can, check out the links to everything the dinner ladies mentioned, including their own website and socials over at@mysdailybusiness.com podcast 462 where you'll find the full show notes. Thank you so much for listening. I'll see you next time. Bye.
Thanks for listening to the MyDaily Business Podcast for a range of tools to help you grow and start your business, including coaching programmes, courses and templates. Check out our shop at mysdailybusiness.com/shop and if you want to get in touch, you can do that by email hello@mydailbusiness.com or you can hit us up on Instagram @MyDailyBusiness_.You can find us on TikTok @MyDailyBusiness or find me Fiona Killackey on LinkedIn. I look forward to connecting!
