Episode 464: Interview with Kate Toon
In this episode you'll learn:
The real truth behind passive income and why the "make money while you sleep" promise needs a reality check - plus actionable steps to build sustainable revenue streams.
How to build and leverage community as a genuine business growth strategy, moving beyond traditional marketing tactics to create lasting customer relationships.
Why the messy middle of business is actually where the magic happens, and practical strategies for navigating this crucial but often overlooked phase.
The importance of aligning your business model with your personal values, and how Kate transformed her SEO expertise into multiple successful ventures without sacrificing work-life balance.
Key insights from Kate's journey from digital marketer to bookshop owner, and why diversifying your business interests might be the key to long-term success.
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Connect and get in touch with Kate Toon:
Kate Toon: People who win marathons, they're not just doing it. They wake up at 5am in the morning and run on wet days and they vaguely enjoy it, right? You can do it, so you have to enjoy it. So don't pick something you don't enjoy. Don't pick something that you don't feel confident in. I mean, you have to be 100% confident. There should be a little bit of wiggle room. But don't pick something that you really feel like. You're almost kind of lying about your ability. But also, while I do think experience and age and every is important, there is something to be said for youthful exuberance. You know, I was youthful and exuberant when I started all of this. I didn't know everything. And I remember, you know, launching my course and people being like, how can you teach SEO? And I'm like, well, I'm going to.
Fiona Killackey: Give it a go because I don't.
Kate Toon: Need to be an expert right now. I just need to be better than the people I'm teaching.
Fiona Killackey: Do you love your life as a small business owner? Let's be real. Sometimes we just don't. It's my hope that this the My Daily Business Podcast helps you regain a little of that lost love through practical, actionable tips, tools and tactics, interviews with creative and curious small business owners, and in depth coaching episodes with me, your host, Fiona Killackey. With more than 20 years experience in marketing, brand content and systems and having now helped thousands of small business owners, I know what it takes to build a business that you can be proud of and that actually aligns with your values, your beliefs, and your hopes for the future. So much of our daily life is spent working on and in the businesses and the brands that we are creating and so it makes sense to actually love what you do. So let's get into this podcast and help you figure out how to love your business and your life on the daily hello and welcome to episode 464 of the My Daily Business Podcast. Today it's an interview episode and it's with somebody who I have known for a number of years now and someone that many of you will know as well. And we are actually doing a podcast swap, so look out because I'm going to be on her podcast very shortly as well. Before we get stuck into my mystery guest, I want to let you know that if you would like to learn about AI, if you'd like to understand how to best use it, how to connect with other people, how they are using it, which platforms you should be using. And believe me, we're going to be talking about so many more things besides ChatGPT. I actually don't use ChatGPT. I use another programme that I think is far more superior in a lot of ways. But so many other programmes, not just around content and copywriting, but around all sorts of things. Video production systems, searching for the right people to connect with. If you're looking at brand collaborations, just so much AI is incredible. I'm so excited about it. I've embraced it for years and I know that it can be super scary for small business owners as well. So if you don't want to tackle it all by yourself and you want a community of people to connect with, around this and just a monthly call, you can do that by signing up to our monthly, chat, the AI chat. So you can go to mydailybusiness.com aichat all one word, aich, a T and sign up there. And our first one kicks off at the end of November. And lastly, before we get stuck in to today's chat, I want to, of course acknowledge where I'm coming from and acknowledge the traditional owner and custodians of these beautiful lands where I meet my guests, I work, I play, I'm raising my family, and I'm incredibly fortunate to live. And so I want to pay my respects to the Wurrung and Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation and acknowledge that sovereignty has never been ceded. Alright, let's get into today's interview episode. I was trying to think of when Kate Toon and I first connected and it has to have been at least, oh, 2017, if not 2018. So for many, many years, Kate Toon and I have existed in similar orbits. We both help small business owners, we both look at marketing, and I think that it's been fascinating to watch her growth and to watch what she has achieved in her business. I know Kate came in very early on when I was doing my marketing for your small business as a guest expert in SEO. And since then I've recommended her SEO course to so many people. I've actually done that course myself. And I can say, you know, hand on heart, she completely knows her stuff and is great at teaching people how to use the Internet, really, in a better way. Years ago I did a class in her, clever copywriting school and we have just connected many times over the last, gosh, seven years. Is that correct? And so today she is finally on the podcast and she's come in to talk about her latest book, six figures while you sleep, but also her entire business journey. She's doing so many things and she has done so many things and we talk about everything from how she got started through to why six figures is that the golden number? Right through to her latest venture, which is a bookshop that she has bought in her beautiful hometown on the central coast of New South Wales. So for anyone who has not heard of Kate Toon, she is an award winning author, she's a coach, she's a speaker, she's a podcaster, she is an entrepreneur that has basically helped thousands of business owners understand how to use digital marketing, including SEO and content and so many other parts to grow their business. So there's so many elements of today's chat. I just love how honest and raw and real Kate Toon is and it's been a joy to have her on, the podcast. So here it is, my interview with the lovely Kate Toon.
Fiona Killackey: Welcome to the podcast, Kate. How are you feeling about life right now?
Kate Toon: Oh, well, I'm very excited to be talking to you. Can I tell them the true story, Fiona? That we arranged this podcast and then spent the entire hour just talking about our lives. But I loved it.
Fiona Killackey: It was great. I loved it too. And it's so nice to have that after, you know, years of when you see these people on Instagram and you kind of have this Instagram relationship and then it's so nice to actually have a proper catch up and actually get to know each other in a totally different way.
Kate Toon: We've known each other for years. I got my big pencil because you got big pencil.
Fiona Killackey: Yes. And you came in and did like stuff for our Covid group. Oh my God.
Kate Toon: And now the big pencil is in the bookshop. Pride of place in the window. So the big pencil is a fundamental part of my life, Fiona. I don't know if you know that, but there you go.
Fiona Killackey: I need to get mine back in mine that's been sitting at my mother in law's house for at least a year and a half and I just need to get it back.
Kate Toon: Maybe that's going to make a big difference to your life when you get it back. That's what I need.
Fiona Killackey: I need the big pencil back. And so before we get stuck into your latest book, congratulations. I would love to know, for you know, anyone who doesn't know who you are and they may be living under a rock and don't know all of the things that you have, have done and are doing, including something new, very new, that is Just super exciting. How do you describe all the different parts of what Kate Toon is and does and who she is?
Kate Toon: Oh, God, that's a bit of a big one. These days, I actually don't go back through all the things I've done. I would just say these days, I feel I'm a digital marketing mentor and, business mentor. I don't love the word coach necessarily. So my, you know, my background is formed on the pillars of copywriting and SEO, whatever. But these days, I'd say I'm much more holistic and take a broader picture across. Across the whole thing, having done courses and podcasts and events and speaking or whatever. So I just feel old. That's one way I describe myself. Old. Slightly irrelevant, but still trying to be in the game. There you go.
Fiona Killackey: Oh, I love that. I feel so much relatability to that. Relatability? Is that even a word? It is now, yeah. Last year. Was it last year or 20. Oh, God, the time. 2023 or maybe 2022. We actually changed our business name from My Daily Business Coach to My Daily Business because I never felt comfortable with the wor and I would find myself saying, oh, yeah, we're called my Daily Business Coach Coach. I would just, you know, whisper it. But, yeah, so I love how you. And also, I just think that syntax, like, I remember way back in the day, I used to be called at an agency, audience engagement manager. And then, you know, everything changes. It's just. It's just a name. It's just.
Kate Toon: I don't love titles. And people come m to me in my group saying, what should I call myself? I'm like, can you just call yourself, you know, Kate Toon? Well, obviously not kt, but, you know, you don't necessarily need to have a beret with what you. With your job title on it. That's. That's corporate land. You can multifaceted. And, you know, I think it's really important in marketing to have a personal brand, which is something that, you know, you do as well, so that you can be Britney Spears, you can be Madonna. You can go through eras of stages and different vibes. You know, Madonna's been pointy bra, disco, rock. They don't quite know what she's doing now. But we love Madonna. Not the genre, not the job title, not who she is today. And I think that's. I want to be more Madonna.
Fiona Killackey: I want to be more Madonna. Well, I want to be more Taylor Swift, maybe.
Kate Toon: Yeah, yeah.
Fiona Killackey: Yes. And so let's discuss, you know, your Books, which massive congrats. And we did spend a lot of time last time talking about books and not getting onto the podcast, but congrats. You have written three books that I know of and you have these last two, which I've got one of them on my desk right now. Six Figures while you sleep. And you had six figures in school Hours. I would love to know, like, what is it about this concept of six figures? Because when you read the book, you realise that, you know, maybe what you.
Fiona Killackey: Thought it was going to be about.
Fiona Killackey: Is not necessarily it. And, the whole idea of six figures. But why do you think that appeals to people? And why have you kind of created this series of six figures while you sleep? Six Figures in School Hours. What was important about that to put it into the title of both of your latest books?
Kate Toon: I'll be perfectly honest and say when I came up with Six Figures in School Hours, it was just a flash of inspiration. I just thought it sounded really good. And I think there's a lot of income flexing around six figures, so I wanted to play on that a little bit. I think it's. It's aspirational, but it's not excessive. Like, seven figures in school hours would be like, oh, whatever. You know, six figures, as we talk about in the book, can be your, income. It can be of a full tax revenue after tax, your profit, many different things. So it's a slight nonsense. I didn't know then that I was going to write a trilogy. So then I came to the next book and it had to be six figures in something. It took me a lot. I googled 200 different titles.
Fiona Killackey: Wow.
Kate Toon: To try and not do six figures come with all. And then it kind of worked. And then the third book will be another six figures and then I'll be done with my six figures. So the reason I chose six figures is I think it's achievable. I think it's confusing. I think it's inspirational and annoying and needs to be talked about. Yes.
Fiona Killackey: No, I love this and I love when you go through the book. Like you said, it's not necessarily. Do all of this and you'll hit six figures. It's like, yeah, you could hit six figures with the very first launch that you do, but you could also have six figures here.
Kate Toon: Or.
Fiona Killackey: What does six figures actually mean? It's kind of like, do you know that guy, Ramit Sefi, who did the Netflix show? I mean, he talks a lot about.
Fiona Killackey: Like, your rich life and your rich.
Fiona Killackey: Your rich life might look Very different to my rich life. Like, your six figures might be very different to my six figures.
Kate Toon: And this is it. Yeah. And this, this is a journey I've been on. And, you know, I feel like I'm coming down the mountain now from, like, my very high income years. It's because it's also about what you're willing to do to make the money, what compromises you're willing to make. Something's going to give and what. What are you willing to give? And I gave a lot and now I'm just not willing to give that. And if that affects my income, then so be it. You know, like, some people would say, well, if you're really good at what you do, you could maintain that income and still have an amazing life. But I think I've seen from most entrepreneurs that that isn't true.
Fiona Killackey: Yeah, I find it really interesting because I've always been very anti hustle, and even the first book was Passion, Purpose, Profit. The tagline, sidestep the Hustle. Our, group coaching programme is called Sidestep the Hustle. And I find it really interesting that so many people have been hustle, hustle, hustle, rise and grind. And now they're moving much more into freedom and abundance. But I feel like they have to go and have a burnout period and then come and say that. And then you wonder about all the people that they brought along with them.
Kate Toon: Who are now let down. This is it. Yeah.
Fiona Killackey: Yeah.
Kate Toon: I've never really been a hustler, but I have been a hard worker.
Fiona Killackey: Hard work. That's exactly. That's exactly what I say in the first book. There are definitely times when you have to work hard. Like if you write a book on top of doing a business, it's hard work, it's extra work, but it's not hustle, hustle, hustle forever.
Kate Toon: Yes, it's a period of time, you know, so hard working, I think is important, but equally also, hard working is exhausting, can lead to burnout, has challenges with your family, your relationships, your health. You know, I've been brought up to be productive and to, you know, work hard, but that can be challenging as well. So, anyway, that's a bit deep, but, yeah, six figures is a bit of a nonsense, but I think you can earn six figures, you can earn seven figures. It's just. At what cost?
Fiona Killackey: Yes, yes, completely. And so let's discuss then, another kind of myth that exists in the business world, and that is this myth of passive income. And, people have this idea and even more so recently, I would say in the last 18 months, just this concept of almost like multilevel marketing and you can just go and buy a $7 PDF and rebrand it and sell it and suddenly Kate is shaking her head vigorously. You know, suddenly you'll be a millionaire next week. And so how do you describe passive income? Because that's a huge part of, you know, six figures while you sleep and the ways that it can be made. And also, yeah, what is passive income? If someone's listening, thinking, I kind of.
Fiona Killackey: Hear this term, but I actually have no idea what it means.
Kate Toon: Yeah. So usually passive income will refer to investing in stocks and shares where the money sits there and you don't have to do much to get a return. Your dividend, having a, a property or a rentable asset where you own something, other people pay for it, investing in businesses where you invest a small amount and then recoup profits. All of those are undoable, were undoable for me because I had no money. So I had no upfront money to invest in shares or buy a property or invest in business. So in my world, it's digital products where you use your existing skills and, you know, look at the services you offer one to one and you try and make them into products that you can sell one. So many. So a digital PDF would be a great example. You know, maybe you have a checklist for how to put this podcast together and you think, well, everyone knows that, but they don't, and they'll be happily pay $7 to get that from you. I think the whole MLM M reselling of digital courses is a new phenomenon because the thing that comes along with digital products is you have to have the experience to deliver them. So, you know, I could do a, checklist about cooking, right? And I'm sure I could sell it. I would probably be selling it based on the trust that I built with my audience. It'd be even worse. But I know nothing about cooking. And if I ever tried to deliver a course on it, you'd be able to tell there'd be mistakes and whatever, and it would just be so disingenuous. So the experience part is important, the lived experience. You could knock up a digital PDF on chat GCP tomorrow, but the thing that's going to make that different and sellable is your little anecdotes. And, oh, I remember the time when. And, oh, gosh, this happened. And you know, tip, make sure that you don't do this because I did it once and it was bloody awful. That's the value for me. So digital products, courses, PDFs and downloadables memberships and masterminds. Those are my four digital downloads, courses, memberships and masterminds.
Fiona Killackey: Why do you think there is this myth out there? I mean this is a loaded question. But also I have people all the time that I work with that you know, less so now I think I'm really getting the audience that I definitely have worked on for years, for the last few years. And I don't get this as much but you know, let's say pre Covid there'd be a lot of people who are like, I just want to build a passive income. And you know, I've heard this or that and I think when you look at things like TikTok or other stuff, it's just, it's so prevalent, especially in that younger market than both of us. And so why do you think it exists where people think, oh, I can just build this one thing, whether it's a mastermind or a group coaching programme or something else and I'm just going to, I'm going to become a millionaire tomorrow.
Kate Toon: Yeah, I mean I think it's the whole get rich quick thing and I think it exists in all aspects of life. You know these people who flip properties looks amazing. You know, it looks like it happens in two days but you don't see the years, of experience and all the mistakes and the money they're investing. Also you don't know their background, whether they have general generational wealth m whether they come from money and have a really great mindset about they have a rich partner, they have low income requirements. You don't, you don't, don't see any of that. So I think it exists in all industries and I think all of us are looking for the secret and we don't want to be told that there is no secret because that's really depressing. So we'll buy book after book after book, the four hour work week, the whatever, thinking that that is going to change our life. And it's not, of course we're going to change our life probably through hard work. Unfortunately, maybe not. Hustle I remember when I met Mark Manson who wrote the Subtle Art of Not Giving a F and he said, you know, someone had come up to him and said, oh my God, your book changed my life. It was amazing. He's quite a cynical man actually in person he's like, no it didn't. You changed your life. So we're all looking for an easy path. We're all looking for a get rich quick scheme and it takes a long time to hear again and again. It's not going to. Doesn't exist. Right. Because it's depressing when you find that out. but there are ways, there's processes, it's methodology. I think of my book as a, not a get rich quick scheme, but a get rich slow scheme. But you also have to define what rich means to you.
Fiona Killackey: Yeah. Which goes back to that whole concept of what is, what is success, what is a rich life. And so speaking of that, you have been, and you, are very good at what you do and you've also been very financially successful and you're very transparent in the book and you even show, you know, the breakdown of how much money you made on different launches and all sorts of things. And even before, when you said, I'm sort of on the way down of the mountain potentially. What are, some of the learning lessons that you have learnt? The deepest, the deepest learning lessons with passive income products so far. And what are the things you just absolutely would not do again?
Kate Toon: Well, I think one of them is understanding the money and understanding that a lot of what you see online is very fake. And people share their revenue figures, but they don't share their profit margin. You know me, and you're very big on this. So I do share that in the book. I share my profit margin, my profit percentage, you know, the expenses that are involved and the time that's involved. Because often, again, entrepreneurs will show the money, but they won't explain that they spend hours and hours of unpaid labour doing the thing. Right. So a number one biggest learning is don't believe the hype. The next one is you have to do it for a very long time. So I am on my 29th launch of my SEO course. That's a lot of launches over many years and I'm still will get people who've been in my universe for a while going, oh, I didn't realise you had an SEO course still. Right. Yeah, just at the point where I'm almost sick of it, people are going, oh, I've just discovered you. Right. So being around for a long time is a big part of it. It doesn't feel that's not sexy. But just sticking around is important. And then I think the third biggest learning is people come for the content, but they stay for the connection in the community. So they think they want to learn SEO, but actually they want to be in this learning environment with other businesses where you're learning together, you're having a laugh, you're getting supported by the person teaching you. You're having small wins which are celebrated, you're able to commiserate your losses. Yeah. So content is the lure, but community is the reason people stick around.
Fiona Killackey: Yeah, I think it's so important. And also the time, the time perspective. And I'm not trying to be ageist or anything, but often we have recommended your course to lots of people. We've recommend. I've done your course.
Kate Toon: Thank you.
Fiona Killackey: Yeah, thank you. But like, I'll say, oh, no. And there are definitely some people within Australia that I'll recommend the us, New Zealand. And I'll be like, they've done the hard yards. They know their stuff. They didn't just go and do this course last weekend and now they're suddenly teaching it, you know, and so that time is such a big thing, I think. Even when I used to. I used to have a column in the newspaper and I had some friends who really wanted to write for magazines and I was like, ye. It doesn't just happen. Like, I've written the amount of crap articles that I wrote for, like, Royal Auto magazine and all this stuff for like 20 years in order to then get the nylons and the monocles and stuff. And so I guess I'm putting you on the spot. But what advice would you have for someone who's listening to this, who's just started, whether they've had a career change and they're starting? Because I generally work with people in their 30s, 40s and 50s and even 60s now. And so what would you say to someone who's like, I haven't, I haven't had the time yet, but how do I. How do I keep the momentum going when I'm not seeing necessarily the results I want to see quickly?
Kate Toon: Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, I do think you have to enjoy the journey, not the destination. You have to enjoy the day to day of it. You know, the whole. People who win marathons, they're not just doing it. They wake up at 5am in the morning and run on wet days. And they vaguely enjoy it.
Fiona Killackey: Right. You can do it.
Kate Toon: So you have to enjoy it. So don't pick something you don't enjoy. Don't pick something that you don't feel confident in. I mean, you have to be 100% confident. There should be a little bit of wiggle room. But don't pick something that you really feel like you're almost kind of lying about your ability. But also, while I, do think Experience and age and every is important. There is something to be said for youthful exuberance. You know, I was youthful and exuberant when I started all of this. I didn't know everything. And I remember, you know, launching my course and people being like, how can you teach SEO? And I'm like, well, I'm going to.
Fiona Killackey: Give it a go because I don't.
Kate Toon: Need to be an expert right now. I just need to be better than the people I'm teaching. As long as I don't claim to be an expert, as long as I'm very transparent about what I know and where I'm at, then I'm perfectly capable of teaching someone who doesn't know what I know. That's fine. Right? So I think useful exuberance is valid as well, because now I have the experience, but maybe I don't have the energy. I'm 50 now, very old and very weary. But yeah, I think if you were just starting out today, I just, you know, you need to manage your expectations of yourself. No one else is watching and thinking, well, why hasn't she done this yet? No one cares. Right? You have to manage your expectations. You have to understand it's a long game. You have to understand that for a while it may be a percentage of your income, not the whole. Took me three years to go from being a full time copywriter to having no clients because I slowly dialled up the passive income until it was enough. And then I even won. It was a lot. And I was having to work extra hours to try and do both. I did that for a while until I felt confident I could wind down the copywriting client. So it's not a hairpin turn. It's a lazy arc. It takes patience and, it takes the ability to turn up every day whether you are enjoying it or not sometimes and pushing on a little bit.
Fiona Killackey: Yeah, I love that you mentioned that youthful exuberance. When I started my business, I wasn't necessarily youthful. I was in my mid-30s by that time. But I recently, for my book launch and I did a whole podcast episode on this, which we'll link to. But I recently reached out to a bunch of brands to sponsor the book launch. And. And I was like, man, I used to do this all the time when I started easily.
Kate Toon: Right. I was 34 when I started.
Fiona Killackey: Yeah.
Kate Toon: And I was. So I was actually more confident then because it was like blind confidence, you know, that, well, why would someone say no? Why would someone say, and now after so many nos, I'm like, they'll probably say no. But, you know, like, then I was just like, why the hell no? Of course I can do this. Of course I can launch a workshop in Sydney and try and sell it to people, you know, Whereas now I'd be like, really? The market, how much will I charge? Well, I'll do the catering. I think of a million m reasons it's not so maybe we're just old and cynical now.
Fiona Killackey: Well, doing the, doing the book launch, I was like, man, I, like, why aren't I doing this every quarter? I used to do that. I used to sit there and be like, what are the 20 brands I want to work with? What are the 20? And I just realised I've just gotten so out of the loop of doing it. But yes, that youthfulness can keep, keep being alive in us. And so with this book, and then I want to talk to you about books, like writing your books and all this new stuff that you're doing with books. What do you think is the biggest takeaway? Or what do you want somebody who's reading this to take away? This is six figures while you sleep. Like, what is the biggest thing that you want them to take away from this book?
Kate Toon: It's funny because the previous book I had a clear message, it was a mission book and it was all about the world will wait. Like, don't put pressure on yourself to have a perfect business while you're bringing up a family. It's impossible. With this book, I'm not sure there's a mission statement. It really is a handbook, which makes it sound quite boring. It's a course in a book, so it's a really practical guide to building out this stuff with the tech. And there's a whole funnel in there, all the emails, the launch, the pricing, the whatever. So I guess it's a reality check, which is both depressing and freeing. Do you see what I mean? So the message is you're not going to make a million dollars overnight, but the message is you will make a million dollars if you want to, you know, and so it's. That's the message, really. This is the process, these are the steps. You will get there, but it's not going to happen over. That's a really non sexy message, isn't it?
Fiona Killackey: Yeah, but it's like, oh my gosh, I talk to clients all the time about what do you actually want? Like, what do you actually want when we take away the money? money is definitely one part of it. But like, why? Like, what is this going to give you. And then it's like, oh, actually, you know, my dad's getting Alzheimer's, or this is happening, or, you know, we've got a history of cancer in our family. And so, yeah, I'd really like to not be working by the time I'm in my 50s. Like, this is it.
Kate Toon: Money is freedom. Money is choice. You know, once you've had a little bit of money and you bought some fancy bits and bobs or whatever, that becomes pretty soulless pretty quick. And you actually go, what, What. What choices is this money going to allow me to make about my life? I'm going to be able to choose to take holidays. I'm going to be able to choose to not work as much or live here or do that. It's the choice. And I think that's what. Once you. Once you understand that, then you can understand how much money you really need. I'm big into minimal viable income. I talk about this a lot. What's the least money you can manage with? That's how I look at it. Not what's the most I can make, but what's the least I can make? Because then I don't have to work so hard to make it.
Fiona Killackey: Yeah. Oh, no, we talk about that a lot with, like, survive. Right. And just being like, what is your survive? So that even if your stuff is hard, you're like, everything's being paid. I can breathe. I'm not going to, like, you know, be up all night thinking about this sort of stuff.
Kate Toon: And business is sometimes just about surviving. It's not about thriving. We've been taught that it's a continuous arrow going up on a chart. There are huge swathes of time in my business where I just, just was bobbing along. It wasn't continuous. And I show in the book, you know, big year and then coming back down again and then plateauing. And, you know, we're not meant to be continuously thriving. It's not reality. And often businesses that do have a super high spike then disappear and drop away altogether because it was too soon.
Fiona Killackey: Yeah. Or they don't have the. Yeah, they don't have the systems in it. We had somebody on the podcast recently who was saying, you know, we did so well, but we didn't have the processes for, like, picking and packing and getting the orders out. And so then we pissed off a lot of people because things were late. So, yeah, careful what you wish for. Ah. completely. So can you tell us about your entry into books? So you have these two books out at the moment, M. Well, six figures in, school hours and six figures while you sleep. You also wrote another book which was. I bought that book. I remember, like seeing the pictures of your son packing orders and I think it came with a cookie or something in it. And that was Confessions of a Misfit Entrepreneur. What made you firstly want to write that book? What was that journey like? And then there was a bit of time between that book and the second book, or the first in this trilogy. What made you want to write the second book?
Kate Toon: Well, the true truth is my first book was a book of poetry. And I wrote that because I went to a bloke's house and he had, loads of books that he'd written on the shelf, self published. And I didn't even realise you could do that, you know. So I wrote a little poetry book, self published. It raised the money on, one of the crowdfunding.
Fiona Killackey: Yes, exactly.
Kate Toon: I've forgotten which one. Which is terrible because they were really good to me. So I did that one and then I wrote a kids book and I had it illustrated by a friend of mine, Will, who is an illustrator for a newspaper. It's called Wobbly Jim. And again raised, you know, 10, 15 grand for that. And that was really fun. And then I wrote Confessions of a Misfit Entrepreneur, which in reality is. I just wanted to have a book. Like, I really, All I really want to do, Fiona, is write books. Everything in between. This is a procrastination tactic because I'm too scared to actually try and write my novel. But then I wrote that one. Really, it was blogs glued together. I had a great editor, Kelly Exeter, who really helped me get that out. But again, self published. And then why the big gap? I guess because my business massively took off. That's my million dollar years. 2017, 2018. I was very focused on making money. And also I didn't have an idea for the next book. I actually had an idea. I went in to see Pan Macmillan and they said, that's a rubbish idea. So I panned it and I really. What they said was, you need to write the four hour work week. That's what you need to write. And I was like, I kind of already written it and that's what the previous one, they said you would just write it again. And I was like, that's nonsense. So it took me a long time to land on an idea and then even the idea, I landed on six figures in school hours. There's no, there's no products that I Have to back that up, you know. So it wasn't business. I, was babbling. It wasn't business focused. I just really, really wanted to have a real book. I wanted to have a real publisher. I wanted to have a book in an airport. You know, it's really egotistical and sad and shallow, but I wanted to go into an airport and see my book. So I wrote a book that I thought would sell.
Fiona Killackey: Yeah.
Kate Toon: And then this book, I feel is the book or the book so far, because it's exactly what I do. I've got the proof, I've got the experience. It leads into everything I sell. I've got a mastermind with it, my, membership. It's the essence of who I am, and it's what I sell. So this is the book that works, if you see what I mean. Even though the previous books won awards and done great or whatever, this is a business tool, this one, and it's working as a business tool.
Fiona Killackey: I don't think it's egotistical at all to want to see your book in an airport. I have definitely been excited when I've seen my books in airports. And the first book, I have to say, what you just said then almost said, like, you don't need to read the first book. Go and read the first book if you are a first and second book. But if you are a parent or a guardian or you have young children and you're trying to do a business, it is hard. And I definitely have a whole bunch of people that I work with who don't have children, who don't want to have children and that. And it's also hard for them. But when I listened, I actually listened to your book and I read it the six figures in school hours. And as someone whose children are, younger than your child, I found it so incredibly helpful to have somebody who's been there, who's done it. Just really practical things. I was nodding along the whole time, like, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And I also feel like sometimes in that whole mumpreneur world, which I can't stand that term, it's a lot of glossing over the hard parts and glossing over the fact that you can't get to networking stuff and you can't get out in the morning early and you can't jump on a 6am call because you are in the thick of it with children. So I just love that. So we'll link to all of this in the show notes. But back to books then. Would you like to do A fourth book. But you said it's a trilogy and do you know what that would be about?
Kate Toon: Yeah, yeah, I'm working on that at the moment and I think I'll have a long good gap because I've. I wrote the first and the second within a year, which is mental. So I'm going to take a longer gap. So I think my next book will be out in 2026, in sort of May 2026 and it will be the third in the jury. Six figures something.
Kate Toon: And I think to be honest it was going to be about six figures from your shop. It was going to be E commerce focus because I watershop and yada yada. We'll talk about that in a minute. But I actually think it's going to be about selling because I think I don't use Facebook ads, I don't use Google Ads and I never have. I've tried, always failed. terrible woeful at Facebook ads. Woeful. Even though I'm an ad copywriter I can write the copy but I just. So I have found other ways to sell, selling without selling, you know and I just think that's something that I could really contribute to the world, you know, whether it's E commerce, digital products, services, whatever my selling tactics. So I think it'll be focused on sales.
Fiona Killackey: Yeah, I love that. I agree. We, we've never like this, even this podcast, I'm always like we're almost at a million downloads, zero ad spend like and, and sometimes I think has that been a, downfall of mine as in using that as some sort of.
Kate Toon: Like oh, look at me, badge of honour. I. Because obviously, you know, it could have been a lot quicker if I'd mastered ads, but at the end of the day I am who I am. I don't like them. I prefer content marketing and so yes, I could have got there faster and I maybe could have got there easier but I didn't make that choice. I still make. Made the same money at the end I think, but I just chose a different path and I think lots of people would prefer to choose a different path and it has a lot of validity. So it shows people totally.
Fiona Killackey: And also just the ethical stuff behind it. I have a lot of problems with Facebook and what it's done and yeah, anyway, we're not going on to that too. But you mentioned there that you have a new venture so you now own a bookshop which is huge. And I think everyone's like dream life to own a bookshop. And how did that come about, why did you buy it? And don't you have enough on your plate? And obviously it's a bit of a change from online world, so yeah, tell.
Fiona Killackey: Us all about that.
Kate Toon: Well, actually I had actually closed down one of my digital assets, one of my passive income. Even though it was earning about 250k a year and was going well, I just couldn't do it anymore. It's the clever copywriting school because I hadn't been a copywriter at that, that point for five years and I started to feel disingenuous and like I had nothing new to offer and while I could take their money, it didn't feel right. So I closed that down and it was the day after it finally died. I gave them loads of warning, six months warning. I even posted them all a leaving gift, which was ridiculous. And I just come back from the post office after dropping off like oodles of leaving gifts and I was walking down the beach and I got an email saying the local bookshop was going to close because it was in financial strife and if they couldn't find a buyer in the next week it would shut. And I was like, oh. And so I actually went in and offered to invest and give her some money, but she didn't want that. I think she was done. And then I took another day and then I said I'd buy it. And it was a dream, but kind of a dream that you never think is going to happen. Like it's, you know, Meg Ryan and Tom Hanks, you know. Yeah, yeah, it's every Christmas movie of a big city girl moving to a small town and meeting a man with a flannel shirt. But it's all of that. But it wasn't a dream I had. And also it's very much the wrong time. You know, I'm 50, my son's still at home. If I was 55, if I was nearing maybe the end of my career. So it is a lot and it has been, if I'm on it, I don't know, I should be all like, yay, it's so beautiful. It's been horrendous, honestly.
Kate Toon: The amount of money, maybe there was a little bit of transparency about the financials of the business. So the amount of money I've had to invest to even just get this bookshop stocked, trying to understand retail, trying to understand the world of publishing, because being a published author is not the same as understanding publishing. The negativity from the previous owner, even though wanting to sell it to me the community. Trying to get the community on board. Just. It's been a huge. The staff, the leader, huge. But I'm through it now, unfortunately. While all this was happening, my father passed away. Yeah, it's been a perfect storm of absolute poo. But then, you have a day like this morning where we went in and, I was there with Michaela, who's the manager of the shop now, and it was buzzing. Like, buzzing at school holidays. We've got free pinwheels for all kids today. I love. The shop is full and people are, like, so excited. And people are coming to the counter with armfuls of books. I've even had to buy baskets. And people are laughing and enjoying it. And. And I'm like, this is the best thing I've ever done because I've lived in a virtual world in a little hut in my back garden for 15 years, selling things that don't physically exist. And now I have a sense of community, a sense of place, a sense of permanence that I've never had for a very long time. I have a, workplace. I have a gang. And I love it. It's the best thing I've ever done.
Fiona Killackey: Oh, I love it. So what is the bookshop called? And if people are, holidaying, because you live in a very beautiful.
Kate Toon: Yeah. Also have an online store you can order online. It's called U Minor Beach Book Nook. I wanted to give it a silly name. It's in the Central coast, about 10, minutes from Gosford, near Palm beach, where they film Home and Away. so, yeah, very nice, very cute. See a little beachside village. Really cute. And, yeah. And, you know, I'm trying to do the online store, and I'm getting into my Google Ads for that, you know, so I'm trying to do some ads. It's not working. Again. but again, same tactics. We've worked really hard on building community. We've built a. Since I took the shop, we built a Facebook group of like 800 local people. We built the Facebook and the Instagram app. You know, having fun with it. But, yeah, very enjoyable.
Fiona Killackey: And I think this is so important. So I have. And I kind of feel bad I've mentioned this store before. I haven't actually mentioned them by name, so I don't feel too bad. I live in a little area of Melbourne, which is technically a suburb, but it feels like a little village, and people come out here. It's full of tourists every single weekend, and you can't get a parking spot and we have a lovely market and et cetera. And a lot of people come out and the pub is in insane. Like, that pub must just be turning. It's just like a cash cow. It is constantly packed. However, there is one shop here that has gift stores and homewares and I have never gone in there. I have never been approached to go in there. I have never had a letterbox drop. We have a. We have 15,000 people on our Facebook group. There's only 5,000 people that live in this town. So I just have always said to people, if you have a retail shop, local area marketing is massive and people don't do it. And this one shop, I'm like, I am your perfect audience. I am a mum. I walk past there constantly with my kids. I am in and out. I drive past there at least five times every single day. So talk to me like, whether it is a letterboxdrop, whether it's a Facebook group, it's something. So I think it's amazing even just those insights you've dropped then, because so many retailers are like, people should just come and maybe they're dependent. Oh, there's so much foot traffic in there because there's some great cafes, there's packed pubs.
Kate Toon: We're right next to Coles, right? So there's a coffee shop next door. So, you know, know it's even stupid things like curb appeal. So we have some nice things. I made a sign with all like Narnia and Mordor on it. And we built in the bit of scrappy council soil outside our, shop, we built a fairy garden that we put out every day and we give away free little creatures and things from their little butterflies and stuff. So, you know, having stuff on the street that makes people come in, a literal sign saying come in, you know, and making that entrance to the shop fun and having music playing in the shop and making the shop smell nice and. But then equally like, you know, we sponsor events and we do vouchers for things and we're trying to go out to the schools and we got, you know, the daycare centres and the old people. Like, I'm, tomorrow, you know, as a seven figure entrepreneur, tomorrow I'm going to an old people's home to sell books about bodice rippers to old, old biddies, you know. And, the thing is, before I bought the shop, I was about to give two days of my week to the old people's home. It's called a Hammond Care. It's for people with dementia. I was going to volunteer there two days a week to try and do my give back. So now I have the bookshop and it's not making any money. M. I mean look, it's never going to make any money. We're making it more profitable. But the profit margin in my business is 45 to 50% in the bookshop. That's net profit in the bookshop. We're lucky, we could be lucky to hit 1% this year. M. It's a self sustaining beast and I am not even paying myself, literally just paying for the staff. But I've employed four local people, which feels great. You know, we've made a community, people are coming to our little events and it's my give back, you know. Yeah. So it's, I mean hopefully one day it'll make me a bit of money but for now it's self sustaining, it's covering its cost. It gives me so much joy. On Sunday I get to do the Halloween window.
Fiona Killackey: Oh wow.
Kate Toon: I've been working on this for about 3 months buying stuff I can't do you know what I mean? And after years of being like, well your projected revenue and ROI is the PHP to your XML site. I'm just like, God, it's nice to be able to just sniff books all day.
Fiona Killackey: Yeah. And there's something so magical about books I used to go into. There was a bookshop in Carlton that then shut down and then there's readings as well in Carlton where I used to live. And it's just, it's like, it's like a library. It's like the endless ideas of what, what could I, what could I learn.
Kate Toon: From this next book? Yeah.
Fiona Killackey: What adventure could I go on?
Kate Toon: We've got gifts. So I've tried to increase, this is a bit marketing. You'll like.
Fiona Killackey: Yes.
Kate Toon: Try to increase the average sale.
Fiona Killackey: Oh good.
Kate Toon: Average transaction value going up $22 to about $39 per. So you know, you can only dial up number of people coming in, average sale and repeat sale. Right. So we've worked on that. It's magical though. Like I hear little kids come in and I remember being little and going around holiday and going to like a little shop and getting something and still having that thing and remembering the holiday and the feeling and I, I get to make that happen for people. I can't wait for Christmas. I've hired a Father Christmas. We've got a real Christmas tree coming. You know, I mean it's joyful, it's joyful. And I'm not saying that what I do day to day with my communities and everything isn't joyful, but this is tangible. Much more tangible.
Fiona Killackey: Yeah. Oh, I love this so much.
Kate Toon: You're gonna come and visit.
Fiona Killackey: I have to come and visit. I just. I love bookshops. Books are the biggest thing that I spend money on, I would say.
Kate Toon: Oh, good. You're my ideal customer.
Fiona Killackey: Yes.
Kate Toon: One other thing, which is very funny, I think, is that I probably sell about 15 of my own books a week for the Wobbly Gym and the whatever. So it's actually probably cheaper than if I was doing Facebook ads.
Fiona Killackey: Yeah.
Kate Toon: The rent and whatever.
Fiona Killackey: Go and buy a bookshelf.
Kate Toon: Yeah, exactly. I need to do guys.
Fiona Killackey: And so you have helped so many people in, you know, business, and you're.
Fiona Killackey: Still helping people, and you're helping people.
Fiona Killackey: That will never contact you and say, thank you for helping me do this or that. Who has helped you? Who has helped you in building these multiple businesses? Do you have any mentors? Do you have mantras? Or is there a book that really stood out to you early on in your journey? Like, what has been invaluable or who.
Kate Toon: My dad was a real guiding force, so it's very sad that he's gone because my parents in general have always been super supportive of me, that they were the first readers of my book. Be very sad that the next book won't be read by my dad first. I'm going to cry.
Fiona Killackey: Cheers and welcome.
Kate Toon: Leanne Wolf, who I dedicated the book to, is my. My VA OBM mom friend. So she's been with me for years, and I literally couldn't have done it without her. I've never really had a mentor. I did really love, Richard Gerrish, who run flying solo. I used to have little chats with him, not in a formal basis. And there's people I admire in business. You are one of them. Susie Daphnis would be another one. Sherry Clonan. You know, there's people I admire, but I've never really had a mentor because I really do have objectional defiance disorder. Like, if someone tells me what to do, it makes me angry, and I'll do the opposite, even myself. I'm the sort of person who makes a to do list the night before or reads it the next morning and goes, well, I'm not doing that. And it's my own to do list, you know, So I think a lot of it has come from within. I'm. Even though I'm very lacking in confidence and deeply, deeply insecure and anxious, I tend to sort of think everything will be okay and that I'm fairly capable sometimes beyond my means. Like, I just made a big paper mache post box for the, Christmas post at the shop. I want to do Father Christmas letters.
Fiona Killackey: Oh, yes.
Kate Toon: And if you look on Instagram, you'll see it's appalling. It looks like a gigantic, tumescent limp penis. But I believed in my head that I could do it, you know, and so I did it. And it's not great, but it's done. And I think that attitude has been my guiding force. Not necessarily a book or a mentor, but just the blind stupidity that I'll, probably get it done and it will be okay.
Fiona Killackey: No, I love that. My first book, Passion, Purpose, Prophet, I dedicated to my mum, and I used a quote she used to always say, you know, you can do anything you put your mind to. And she really believed that and she had had a lot of setbacks. And I know I'm also speaking as a white woman in Australia. I have a lot of luxuries and privileges, but, just that mentality of, like, you can do it. Like, she went back to uni in her 40s. She, you know, hitchhiked around the world as a single woman in, you know, her 30s. She didn't get married till 35. She turned down seven marriage proposals because she was like, I don't want to settle. I want to go out and live in the world, you know, like, and I think having that inspiring. Yeah, very inspiring person to have as a role model is amazing. And I also really, my heart goes out to you because I totally get not having your parents for your book. And it's like, this is a big milestone in my life on tech tools switching over. You are, you know, queen of lots of different tech tools. What are some that you absolutely couldn't run your business without? Maybe I don't know if there's any that people haven't heard of that are listening to this going, oh, that's a good one.
Kate Toon: They're going to be all the boring ones, you know, like, massive fan of love, hate relationship with word. But, you know, I still only use word. I, love Zero. I know that's boring, but that was. Mismanagement was my middle name. And so zero really helped me. Oh, I would say that not the profit first book because too lazy to read it, but the profit first mentality was really important for me in business. That really saved me from debt. And then these days, you know, in this flurry of AI, the tool that I Like, a lot is magai. I'm an affiliate for Maguire. It's the only one. And it's a combination of all of them. Chat, gcp, Claude or whatever. Did I use it to write my book, maybe? No, I didn't. Because although I like to use it, I do think that AI is terrifying in that it removes the blank page. You don't need to suffer with the blank page. And I think suffering with the blank page is the most important part of the creative process, and we mustn't lose that skill. So those would be the ones I use day to day. But no, I'm not much of a tool user. in frank, honestly, I'm not much of a business book reader or a podcast listener. Business podcast listener. I like to listen to weird crime ones and I like to read novels. So for me, when I'm working, I'm working. And when I'm not, I want to do everything but think about work. And with tools, I'm just quite organic. Me, Internet, Microsoft Word is all I built my business on, to be honest. I love this.
Fiona Killackey: Love this. And so what are you most proud of from your businesses to date?
Kate Toon: Oh, I remember Robert Garrar saying to me, imagine you're on stage and everyone's clapping you. What are they clapping you for? Which I thought was a really good one. And that's changed through the years, because I ran a conference in Melbourne once, and it was epic. And I remember standing on stage and thinking, this is my best achievement, and I've won some awards, but I guess, you know, it's gonna. This is so cheesy if you're gonna gag. Fiona. you know, someone came into the shop today and they bought Wobbly Jim. And we always pretend that Wobbly Jim, he's a pirate, that he lives in the back cupboard. So we're like, we'll just go and see if he's there, and we go out back and obviously, I signed the book as Wobbly Jim. And then we come out and he said he was there, he signed it for you. And I gave them the book. And the kid's like, you know, and that's what I'm most proud of. It is the books. It's the books. I'm sorry. Oh, no, it's other stuff. It's the books. And hopefully one day it will be my novel. That's my dream.
Fiona Killackey: I have no doubt you'll make it happen. So where can people connect with you if they're not near the book, where can they come? And also what's next for Kate Toon? Because we could have had a whole other podcast just on the whole brand and name and.
Kate Toon: Well, I think what's next is that me and you need to have a weekly chat because, this is my best time of the week. So you can find me by Googling Kate Toon because I was good at SEO. I still am. But, you'll find my, hub site, which is a starting point to all my various bits and bobs. What's next is honestly just a bit of living. It's been a hard year for me. I've taken a big step back in my business, financially and in general. And I really just want to reassess, you know, after the death of dad and this tumultuous year, what do I want my life to look like for the next five years? You know, my son is at home for another three, probably before he goes off to college. I really want to enjoy that time with him, and I just want to. I just want to have nice days. I don't have any big plans. I will start working on the book, but no doubt I'll leave it till six weeks before the deadline and have m another mad because that's who I am. Parkinson's law. I just work better under deadline. But, yeah, it's hopefully just pottering around and enjoying the shop and enjoying my life. No big plans.
Fiona Killackey: I think that is the best plan. To just be, like, enjoying my life. That's the best plan. Like, how good is that? Well, thank you so much for this and coming on and all the chats and. Yeah, I've really, really enjoyed this and look forward to more of them.
Kate Toon: Yeah, I'll be booking you in for another chat in a few weeks.
Fiona Killackey: Yes. Okay, take care.
Kate Toon: Bye.
Fiona Killackey: So much in that episode. So much, so much to think about, digest, reaffirm things that you already were thinking. But, yeah, just so much. I want to say a huge thank you to Kate for coming on and just sharing so openly with such realness. And I think it's easy when you see people on social media and you see that they're doing really well and they've done this or that or they've earned seven figures or whatever, and you forget one about just how much work is involved and how it was definitely not some overnight success, but also that the road to that has not just been some straight path. So there was so much in that. And, of course, you know, congrats to Kate for her, latest book, six figures while you sleep. And we'll link to that in the show notes. You can also just Google six figures while you sleep. And of course you can Google it because she is the queen of SEO. So you'll be able to find it. You'll also be able to find her course and other things that you can do in association with that book and kate, toon.com and just again, google six figures while you sleep. If you want to check out anything else that Kate is doing and she does do a lot, you can find all of that at Kate Toon Calm. You can find her on all the socials under Kate Toon and it's T double O N. She also has her podcast and of course the bookshop. So we'll link to all of that in the show notes, which for this episode will be@mysdailybusiness.com podcast464. As always, I'm going to highlight two things that stood out and honestly, there was so many that it was really hard to just narrow them down. I guess the first thing that really, you know, stood out for me is that. But when she talked about business isn't always about growth and sometimes it's just about surviving and sometimes it's just about what do I need right now in this season that I'm in, we did talk about Kate's other book, six figures in school hours, and I particularly found that really interesting as a small business owner who has children at school and preschool and has been running this business whilst also having my second child. So that does bring into it challenges like, obviously it's incredible and I'm very, very lucky, but trying to run a business within a timeframe of school hours or trying to do certain things or go to certain things when you've got young children is difficult. It can be difficult. So I really appreciated that. And her idea of just, yeah, like I said before, that business is not always just this straight line growth, growth, growth, growth. And in her new book, six figures while you sleep, she actually outlines exactly how much money she's made from different courses in one particular and shows you it went up and then it went down the next year and then it went up and then, you know, and just shows that. And I have constantly been showing my clients and in group coaching, I go through my entire business what worked each year. Why did I change this? Why did I, you know, what percentage of passive income did I need to bring in? What lifestyle changes happened for that, to that, need to be the case. And I talk a lot in this podcast about the Fact that I've built my business to support my life, I have not done it the other way. And I've done that from day one. Mainly, I think, because I had a lot of burnout in my last corporate job and realised I don't want to have that. And if I'm starting a business, I get to decide, you know, what that actually looks like. And I think so often we forget that we have agency over what our business looks like. And also, what does success mean to you? And yes, for sure, definitely financials are part of that, but they're only one part of it. And so I love that she talked about it has definitely not been a straight line. And, you know, she talked. I think she said, you know, there's. There'd been huge swathes of time in her lovely accent when I was just bobbing along, you know, just bobbing along, just getting by. And I think sometimes when we look at people who have seemingly achieved a lot and, you know, I know so many people like this and including myself, where people like, oh, you've done this and you've done that. There's been plenty of times when it's been really hard. And I just love that she talked about that. I think the more that we can all be really open and honest about that stuff, the better. And the second thing that I really loved, and I just deeply resonate with as well, is this idea that community drives your business success. It absolutely does. I know that the community around this podcast, the community around my Sunday email, the community that used to come to my workshops when I do them publicly, the community of people that have bought the courses and gone through them a few times, or people that come in for group coaching and then stick around and just. Even the group coaching community like that has been instrumental to my own business success. And just having that community of creative people who want to learn, who are open, who also have this idea, like I do, that, that your business should support your life, not the other way around. It's essential to having a business. You want to build that community. And Kate has done an incredible job of building various communities around her, business. And I love that she talked about, you know, people come thinking that they just want to learn about SEO, but what they want is really a learning environment where people are learning together and growing together. So there's so much in that. There was so many other things as well, you know, revenue, not telling the full story, the long game, you know, quick success, kind of overnight success. And part of the reason that I look at Kate and respect what she's done is that she has been doing this for so long and whenever I've recommended her course to people, the SEO one, you know, I've said she knows her stuff, she's been doing this for a long time. And she didn't just do it for herself. She didn't just, you know, start a business and happen to do it for herself, but has not actually done it for other people. She has done it for so many other people as well. And I think when you're looking for somebody to guide you in any part of life, you want to see that they've been able to help people like you. But also, you know, have they done this before? Is it not something that they've just learned on the weekend and now they're.
Fiona Killackey: Trying to sell it to you?
Fiona Killackey: So that is it for today. If you want to check out the book, go on over to katetoon.com and you can find it there Six Figures While you Sleep. Six Figures in School Hours. Her, first book as well, or her second book, but the first in the Six Figure series and so many other things at, ah, ktune.com thank you so much for listening. If you found this useful, please share it with a friend. And if you want to make sure you don't miss out on any other interesting interviews, just hit subscribe. Thanks so much for listening. I'll see you next time. Bye. Thanks for listening to the My Daily Business Podcast for a range of tools to help you grow and start your business, including coaching programmes, courses and templates. check out our shop at mysdailybusiness.com/shop and if you want to get in touch, you can do that by email helloydailybusiness.com or you can hit us up on Instagram @mysdailybusiness. You can find us on TikTok at mydailybusiness or find me Fiona Killackey on LinkedIn. I look forward to connecting!
