Episode 66: On Breaking Up with Friends – An Interview with Dr. Hannah Korrel, Clinical Neuropsychologist and Author of How to Break Up With Friends
A lot of us have experienced dealing with competition, envy and/or awkwardness between friends. It can cause tension and in some cases, we end up breaking things off with some of our friends because it’s no longer healthy for either party. As a small business owner, how do you navigate friendships in a healthy way and a way that is mutually beneficial and respectful? In this week’s interview episode, Fiona talks to Dr. Hannah Korrel, Clinical Neuropsychologist and Author of How to Break Up with Friends, about the importance of having good supportive friends and why we need to break up with the toxic ones.
Topics discussed in this episode:
• Introduction
• Catching Up
• On Hannah's Business
• Writing How To Break Up with Friends
• Her Upbringing
• Benefits of Having Good Supportive Friends
• On Jealousy Between Friends
• Friends Running Similar Businesses
• On Becoming Friends Again After A Breakup
• On Writing A Book
• Book/App Recommendations
• Connecting with Hannah
• Conclusion
Connecting with Dr. Hannah Korrel
• Website
Grab a copy of her book here:
• How To Break Up with Friends
Episode transcript:
I think as I've gotten older, I've really realised the value of experience and where we're investing our time and the key is not hoarding your pennies in a bank account, it's actually what is the quality of your experience and what do you bring to the table as a person? And that is truly what's going to open up an abundance of whatever it is that you're after.
Hello and welcome to Episode 66 of the My Daily Business Coach podcast. We are into a New Year. I hope everyone is feeling fresh and fun and I don't know well the kind of novelty factors that come in with the arrival of a new year. I don't know if it's just me, but I do feel that there's a sense of "OK", especially after the year that we've just had, you know, this sense of, "OK, I can cope with a lot of stuff. I'm more resilient. I'm stronger than I thought I was. And I'm then going into this new year with all of those great attributes."
I also hope that alongside those attributes, you're going into this new year full of education. I mean, there was no one on the planet that wasn't touched in some way by the pandemic that happened in the last 12 months. And it's still happening. But also, you know, it wasn't just the pandemic. I think the pandemic threw up so many other things to consider and to really come to terms with - from climate change. I mean, where I am in Australia, we had the bushfires starting off 2020 right through to racism and privilege and understanding where we sit in that spectrum and also what we're going to do to help future generations and help current generations, because I think 2020 brought up a lot of things to the surface and we now have to sort through that and we have to work through it and we have to admit, you know, potentially where we're at fault or admit on the other side where potentially we have hidden shame or hidden racism or hidden things because of the way that society has been built up. So I really hope that as you go through this next year, you're thinking about all of these things and you're actually taking action on the education that was presented to you in 2020.
Now, another aspect that I know has been present for a lot of people, a majority of the clients I work with have talked about it. I've gone through it and, you know, so many other people have gone through it as well is the understanding of who's in your life, who you can really rely on to support you and who you can support, vice versa. But we've really had time, I guess, to be with loved ones more in some cases and less in other cases, but also to understand, you know, who do I want to be surrounding me, not just in my business, but in my life. And that brings me to today's guest. So I'm really excited about this interview. It's a little bit different to the standard small business owners that we've been talking to on this podcast.
But today's interview is with Dr Hannah Korrel. And Hannah is a clinical neuropsychologist. She has a PhD in neuroscience and she's based in Sydney. Now, she not only runs her own business, but she also works in hospital as a clinical neuropsychologist. And she's studying people's behaviour, people's brains, what happens when we think certain things and all of that is just fascinating to me. Now, in 2020, Hannah published her first book, How to Break Up with Friends, and I just devoured it. I don't know if it was just the universe presented the book to me the right time. I actually listen to it on Audible First and then I bought the print version.
But I was just fascinated because I do think that friendships are something, particularly a small business owners. We don't necessarily analyse in the same way that we will analyse, say, a romantic relationship or business partnership. We don't necessarily sit down and think, well, what do I want from my friends and are they giving that to me? And in return, am I being a good friend, am I somehow expecting more of other people than I'm willing to give. Am I being constantly let down by people or am I seen by my friendship group as this type of person when I want to be seen as that type of person? All of these kind of questions are raised within Hannah's book, which, of course will link to in the shownotes. Again, it's called How to Break Up with Friends.
But I reached out to Hannah after I finished listening to it. I think maybe I was like midway through, actually. And I just said, this is amazing. You've done a really great job here. I'm really enjoying it. And I think this should be talked about more and more and more by everyone. And so I asked her to come on to the podcast and luckily she said yes and she agreed to it. And I was just so excited to talk to her, because I think I talk about cultivating crews quite a bit in my business. I've talked about in my book, I talk about it, you know, in my Sunday emails, because I really do think that you need a good support system around you to build a successful business, whatever success means to you. But I also think that as you build that successful business, you will have friends who are there to genuinely support you and they are the biggest cheerleaders for you and you'll have other friends who are not. And as simple as that sounds, they just are not. And it can cause friction. It can cause competition. It can cause envy. It can cause jealousy. And it can just cause you to grow apart from certain people in your life. So I wanted to get Dr. Hannah Korrel's take on this as small business owners, obviously, to talk about her book as well, because I think it's fantastic.
But I wanted specifically to talk to her about how do you deal with competition between friends, because often you can have these competitors or people in the same space as you, but either really know them that well. Maybe you're like friends on Instagram, but in real life off of social media, like off the digital realm, you can have good friends that potentially you start earning more than them or they start earning a lot more than you or they grow their business to an extent that you wish your business was at. Or, you know, they get some sort of publicity that you would die for or vice versa. And it can raise a lot of kind of questions. And sometimes we can just put these under the rug and be like, well, I don't want to deal with that right now, or it's really awkward. Or I don't want to jump to assumptions that somebody is jealous or someone's envious or I don't want to show my envy if that's the case.
So I wanted to talk to her about this because I think it's a really important topic that is not discussed pretty much at all in business circles. We can talk about competition and we use hashtags like community over competition and collaboration over competition, and we can collaborate with people in the same circles as us. But again, when it comes to our personal friendships, often they can take the brunt of some of what we were experiencing because we run a small business even totally outside of competition. Just having time for your friends. If your friends don't run their own businesses and potentially don't know what's involved with running a business, particularly when you're just starting out and you're really giving it everything, you've got to try and make it work.
Sometimes it can be hard for people to understand, well, why can't you just go for a coffee? You run your own business like, can't you just take half the day off and see me? Because I've got a day of annual leave. All sorts of things can come up for friendships when it comes to being a small business owner. So I definitely wanted to get Hannah onto the show today. So I'm about to jump into the interview that I did with Hannah. I just need to apologise that audio isn't perfect. We have done our best with that. But I know that the content is good enough that hopefully the audio issues won't be too much of a listening challenge.
So here it is, my interview with Dr. Hannah Korrel, clinical psychologist and author of How to Break Up with Friends. I hope you enjoy it.
All right, I'm super, super excited about today's episode, I am here with Dr. Hannah Korrel. Welcome, Hannah. How are you?
Hi, Fiona. Thank you so much for having me.
Oh, no. I am, like, genuinely super pumped about talking to you on this topic, because as we were talking about just before we hit record, it is something that people don't talk about and especially, I think with small business owners, it can be a really prickly topic to get around. So I can't wait to talk about it with you. But firstly, we are coming through a crazy 12 months in Australia with the bushfires and covid and everything else. So how do you feel? How have you been going this last year?
Oh, it's been a hectic year. Hey, it's just I don't know. I think we're starting to get the initial stats coming in to say that one in four people felt lonely before covid and now that's increased to like one in two people feeling lonely. And I know that women in particular and women who have been affected by unemployment and women who have been affected by mental health issues and who live by themselves, also one of the prime prime candidates for experiencing hardship during covid. So for me, I'm a woman.
I've had I've had my bouts of tough anxiety in the past, and I do live by myself as well. I've definitely found it's been a year of growth for me, an absolute year of growth. So working at the hospital, obviously on my days just increase like crazy. And I was doing seven day weeks at the start and it settled down and I really had to learn how to to control my workload and that my workload does not control me. I really had to learn that this year. I know that that has been a steep and big learning curve.
Wow. And I have to say, hats off in the health professional. And, you know, I just think, gosh, we can all be like, oh, God, it's been a hard year, but we were not all that long. So a lot of us listening to this, we're not on the front line. So really, from everyone listening and myself, thank you for everything that you've done these last 12 months. Thank you. Welcome. I feel so thin. Thank you. No, you're totally, totally welcome. But we've talked about mental health and mental health has been a huge, huge challenge, like you said. And I know even my own mental health, I kept working. I still had a job. But, my goodness, it's been a rollercoaster this year. And like you said, you're on the front line, you're working in hospitals, you working with people being challenged. But how has that been challenging for you as the person helping you mentioned before, you've had to really figure out how to take back some of the control or the time. Have you had to work through anything else this year as a small business owner because you also run your business as well?
Yeah, yeah. This year was intense. Like I published a book, so I became a first time author and that was like collaborative publishing, which means that I sort of self publish. So I invested in that myself. I also started my practise, my psychology practise, and then I got essentially redeployed at the hospital. So I was working every weekend covering covering things on the psychiatric ward. So it just exploded around March. And for me, the process of realising that you can sign up to do everything in the world and be like, yep, yes, yes, yes, I'll do this, I'll do this, I'll do this. And then by September, I was kind of a bit of a mess because there was just it was just before the book launch. I was creating the app as well. I have an app that goes to the book itself and the practise was taking off and the hospital was so demanding. And I think I had to go through that journey of realising that it's not about quantity, but about constantly saying yes to every single opportunity, because in a way I was shooting myself in the foot because I wasn't able to do one hundred percent for those things. So I had to kind of realise, you can't do it all yourself, you cannot do it all yourself. I couldn't make the websites and I couldn't do the app and I couldn't do all the feelings and the reception for the practise. And so I got to a point where I had to realise, delegate, you need to delegate. And a big part of that was accepting that that's going to cost some money to do that. It's going to cost to hire other people to help you with your knowledge gaps. And that was hard for me as a as a new business small business owner. And having just invested so much money into the book, so accepting and realising, you know, it's OK for you to spend money on your own growth and it's OK for you to invest in yourself and just kind of almost surrender to.
Yep, I'm just going to have to spend this money and I never look back.
I'm so, so glad that I got that assistance when I did. And I was really at boiling point. I just could not do everything myself. The Internet, it was starting to be quite detrimental because I just wasn't producing the quality that I wanted in my know my social media presence at my website and in all of those things that I sort of the front line, the first thing that the consumer see was kind of not. Living up to scratch, so accepting that you what's the cliche, you have to spend money to make money, you really do need to get help. And there are people out there who can help you in those areas that are very, very good at helping in social media websites. And it's not something that's necessarily going to break the bank. So it's OK to reach out and say, hey, I actually really need some help with these things.
Oh, my God, I love that. We like a few minutes in and you're already giving so much gold. I was just like over here. You can't see me anymore because we turn to video. But like, oh, my God, I was like, yes, yes, yes, hallelujah. Yes. Because I feel the same way. And actually, I was just recording my How to Start a podcast cause a few weeks ago and I was saying on the Web, people can quickly be like, oh, I can figure out GarageBand, I can figure out how to edit it or I can do this.
And I'm like, yep, if you love that time and your lifestyle affords you that, awesome. It's also great to find someone that you can you can do that in like a fraction of the time that it would take you.
Oh my God, yes. Like six US dollars, seven US dollars go to work up and they can put all your logs on your website for you and you end up saving two hours time and your time is worth money as well.
Yeah, and it's just about your time also. Like for me, I have two kids so it's like, OK, I want to learn how to edit my podcast myself. That means things are taken up. That's not time with my husband and all that kind of stuff. Yeah. Value your own time. Yes, totally. And so it sounds like a massive year for you and mega congrats on launching a book I feels this year in the middle of it and you can't do all the launch stuff that you wanted to do. So massive, massive congratulations. Thank you. And I was saying again, before we hit record that I'm super excited to have you on because your book has changed my life. And that's not an understatement. I read it well. I listen to it and I listen to it as quickly as I could. And now I've got the print version because I just think it is a topic that is not talked about enough. It's that it's almost like taboo to talk about. And I would love you to tell us about your book, which is called How to Break Up with Friends.
And we will link to that in the show notes. But how did you come up with it? Why did you start writing it and how does the book tie in to what you're doing in the rest of your business?
It's so funny. You mentioned you got it in hard copy as well, because I've just realised the audio version doesn't include the footnotes which have so much science, the gems and gold in them. So it's good to see you've got the fiscal cliff as well. It's an interesting journey. So I give two answers with this. There's the professional side of this, which is I'm a neuropsychologist, I would say neuroscience. So I love understanding why the brain makes us do that.
We have wonderful things that we do and why we keep doing the same patterns of negative behaviour, even though we know that they're not quite right for us. And why does that happen on a neuroscience level? Like I personally find that fascinating and the responses in the brain and the networks in the brain and the pathways that keep us going back for more hurt sometimes.
So I find that that really, really fascinating as a neuroscientist in terms of my my second answer, which is my personal real answer. The truth is, I I thought I was experiencing some friendship at times and actually I was experiencing friendship. I realised when I hit that you have your existential crisis. When you have those big growth. Sometimes I did a lot of reflection, personal reflection, and I kind of realised, wow, I have been giving and giving and giving to certain friendship groups and certain friends.
And that relationship was not serving me. It was it was not reciprocal and it was hurting me a lot. So these two worlds of mine, this neuroscience world, in this real life, I'm a real person. And I went through this kind of joined together and I got inspired essentially just start writing after one formative friendship experience. I got really inspired and I just started writing. So it was almost like I was just journaling to myself all the things that I needed to hear. And before I knew it a year later, it actually kind of morphed into a bit of a manuscript. And that's and then I sent it off to Venturer and they accepted it. And yeah, that's where we got to the point that it was very much a process of me almost doing my own personal reflection and hearing all the things that I definitely needed to hear.
Oh, I love that. I love that. It was what you're doing the day job as well. Yeah. I'm so glad that you wrote it. I think people don't necessarily contact you to tell you that it's going to change so many people's not only their friendships, but also their own self esteem and their own life. I'm willing to put up with this. I'm not willing to put up with that. And we don't do that in friendships like we do that a lot more in, say, romantic relationships or even with our family. But we kind of just put up with crap, I think, from women, I think because we sort of like, oh, maybe they're going through something or.
Yeah, yep. And you're tapping into societal norms and norms basically mean the. Of how we behave in society, so norms are not always a good thing, so they can be norms like big men don't cry and that women who complain nags and are high maintenance and are annoying pests or their Karens, you know, we get this terrible idea that if a female speaks up for themselves and says and something is not OK, that you're irritating and you're rocking the boat and you're buzz kill and you never, ever allowed to be a buzzkill, you've got to always be you've always got to be happy and you've always got to be OK with everything. And if you're not OK, that means that you're the problem, which is not true. That's that's actually really detrimental mentality to have, because it means that a lot of females at times feel like they can't say when something was inappropriate or made them feel uncomfortable or wasn't good enough really. And we are absolutely allowed to say when things are not good enough and not setting off.
Oh, I love that. That should just be like a motto on every child's book with the interschool not to talk up. And so can you talk about it? Because obviously it takes I'm sure you are not. Well, I know you're not the only person that would have gone through a horrible friendship or sort of sat there on the 30th or 40 or 50 at the 20th and being like, oh, one of my friends. Why is one particular friend doing this to me? But you actually then took it and rolled with it and wrote a book. And even when you wrote it, you have the gumption to go out to a publisher and get it published.
So I'm just wondering, like, what was your upbringing like your parents kind of go get? Is they small business owners or are they in the health space like you? And how do you think your upbringing has influenced you today?
That's such a good question.
You and so my dad was in the Army, the Navy and the Air Force. So basically that means I moved around a lot as a child. So I suppose when you say one place for a really long time, you have the benefit of longevity and social networks where every person in the social network also knows one another. And it's not just I'm friends with X and I'm friends with Y and I'm friends with Z, but X, Y and Z also know each other. So your friendship network is a lot more interconnected, which means it's generally a lot stronger. So if Barry doesn't show up to the social events, everybody knows Barry has spiked and Barry's being black. But if you're the only person who knows Barry and he doesn't show up to your 30th birthday, then only the Barry has been a bit of a jerk. And let the ball down, let the ball drop so people are much more likely to do sometimes crappy behaviour when they're less accountable. So I suppose for me, my upbringing was that I didn't have the benefit and benefit of long term friendships because I moved around so much. And even as an adult, I've moved around heaps. So I've gone from Melbourne to Brisbane City for work doing my registrar programme around many different hospitals, and that that has made developing friends tricky. When you go into a new new town, you don't always have the benefit of new friends. Places can be very quickly. Sometimes they don't they aren't looking for a new friend. And so you're wanting to make friends with people who aren't necessarily available. So I suppose all of those things influence the book. My parents raised a big, big family. So I've got five kids in my family and we're all very, very close, very close with all my in-laws. So I've got to I feel very blessed and lucky because I've got a lot of inbuilt best mates, default, best mates. They have to be my best friends. So you have to have that. You have to be my best friend. Sister, I'm sorry. Yes. That has been really good to Narval with God. I've always got them to have my back. But no, my parents weren't small business owners at all. They they kind of just went through life, kind of they were very big on saving and then they were very big on understanding the value of a dollar and not spending on credit. So not spending anything that you didn't already have the ability to pay for that has definitely shaped me. And that's been a really interesting process with business starting a business and breaking through the idea of spending money on the business. I suppose that idea was very ingrained in my head. Like, you know, we have these expectations as we get older.
You're supposed to buy a house and you're supposed to do X and you're supposed to do Z. And if you spend that money on something different, like breaking the mould and starting your own business, which not everybody does, then to sign up to perhaps having a debt, maybe that for me was a really a mental barrier that I had to kind of break through to be able to grow and actually develop myself as a as a as a person and develop my career and see the you spend the money now, but then you you see the growth in so many other ways that you wouldn't have necessarily pictured. So, yeah, I suppose my parents did a beautiful job of teaching me the value of a dollar and the value of savings, and I've always been good with that, but also the beautiful and fantastic. But they also kind of made me a little bit fearful to spend that money unless I was spending it in the quote unquote inverted commas right places and the right place.
A mortgage or maybe the wedding that you have with the partner that doesn't exist as a female. And I was like, why should I be spending X amount of my savings on publishing a book?
And you know what? I'm so, so glad that I did it, because it has just opened up so many doors that I would never have had otherwise. And it was absolutely worth every penny.
[00:24:05] Oh, I love that. And I'm so glad that you spent your money on a book, too, because then I got to read it. Yeah, I totally agree with that. And I was raised the same way. My parents didn't have credit cards. We don't have credit cards in my house that night. Everything we buy is either cash or we just I bought and so we the same and even my husband and I saved up all of our money and went to live in London. The global financial crisis. And basically he just got chewed up very quickly and we were trying to find jobs and everything else. So as when we first came back, we were like, man, that was a that was a house deposit back then. But we we had four years of incredible travel and we did. That's priceless. So I totally agree with you have to sometimes take that risk and spend it on people or resources or things to your business and understand the value of your time.
Again, your time is precious. So what you're spending your time on now that other people can do or what experience have you collected that other people don't necessarily have like those things? I think as I've gotten older, I've really realised the value of experience and where we're investing our time.
And the key is not holding you pennies in a bank account. It's actually what is the quality of your experience and what do you bring to the table as a person? And that is truly what's going to open up an abundance of whatever it is that you're after, whether it's business success or wealth or a quality, meaningful, meaningful life. It is about the experience that you're shaping as a person within yourself. And it's not going to be the number on the screen of your bank balance that dictates the quality that you are as a person and what you bring to the table.
It's your experience. Yes. I mean, I'm like, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. I could just talk to you all day. One of the things that I want to talk about, obviously, is this book. And the reason that I think it's so important and I think every small business owner should go out and read it is because I'm always talking to my clients about cultivating good relationships, having business and having accountability. A lot of people come to me or any business coach for accountability. I'm always saying to people, you know, we can keep working together. But I also think regardless of whether we work together or not, you need a support group around you because a business is not a business, is an island. You need help. I need help or friends or other things. But how important? Because you're a scientist, you study the brain. How important do you think that that is?
And I guess what are the health benefits of having good supportive friends? Yeah. Yeah. And I think you're tapping into something that we don't necessarily acknowledge the value of mental health. And I can almost feel the eyeball rolls when I say the word good mental health because people just or physical symptoms are so obvious.
And if somebody has a broken arm, we can really appreciate the damage there. And when people have a good physical body and physique, we can appreciate the quality of their physical health. But it's so hard to see emotional health and emotional well-being, so appreciating optimal and truly advantageous mental health is not something that people realise the value of. And they don't tend to realise the connexions that good mental health has with every physiological part of your body. So I talk about this in the book, this whole chapter on the impact of good friends so people don't realise the quality of the friendship can actually dictate the chronicity of illnesses that you have across your lifespan.
So they've actually found strained relationships are more likely to produce chronic illnesses. As you get older, they're more likely to cause you to have health impacts on par with obesity and smoking and also shorten your lifespan. So the opposite of that is a good friendship. And this is not relationships with partners or family or colleagues necessarily. This is specific to friendship. They found that those quality relationships were associated with better health outcomes, longer life staving off dementia, more business success and financial success, greater ability to make more friends.
When you hang out with a friend that's good quality, produces oxytocin in your brain and endorphins and increases your ability to bond with other people. So you're a better networker. You make better rapport with people. People gravitate towards you more. It's like the more you engage in good quality friendship, the more you're able to engage in more and more good quality friendships. And then, I mean, not to mention all of the cumulative effects of having good quality friends versus your friends. And I like to use the word allostatic load. Not many people have heard this word allostatic. It's a I say static, it's a hardwood. And that basically means the wear and. Hair on your body, so that's the that's the wear and tear that occurs to your body over time. And if you have a strained friendship, a friendship that's toxic, that makes you feel worse when you enter it than after, if you don't feel supported, if you feel like you're giving, giving, giving your time, your energy and your money to people. And there's zero reciprocation that actually has a cumulative effect on the wear and tear of your bodies. And we can measure that down to the cellular level that your cells aren't replicating as well as they used to. And your immune system is decreased and your propensity to get things like dementia over time is increased. So you kind of got to keep the long term gain in mind. So, yeah, maybe your father is a is a bit of a crappy friends and treats you poorly, but you think, oh, well, doesn't really matter as I'll keep him on the friendly because at least that I've got in there is an attendee when I have my next birthday party. But actually Basar is having more of an impact on your health than you realise.
Oh my God, I find this stuff just fascinating. I often find people who've been listening to this podcast for ages might have heard me say in another life, I will be a psychologist like I did my brother. My eldest brother is a professor of psychology and my sister's a GP and she specialises in mental health. I just salute every single thing that you've just said then. I really think we don't think about it enough. And I also do a lot of work and I'm not at all trying to put these two. It's parallel, but I do a lot of work with charities in the domestic violence space and I think we just so easily can judge women who stay away saying, why are you letting that happen to you? And I'm not for a second saying it's the same. But I do think that we have this level that we put up with with friendships that if our friends are looking at us romantic relationship, they definitely would be like, oh, if it's spent 25 years with that person that doesn't call you back and do this doesn't come to anything that's meaningful to you. So yes. Oh my goodness. But I love the health benefits and I, I have a really great bestie Natasha and every single time I talk to her I just come off feeling full of life and I have another I have lots of good friends like that and I'm really lucky. But another thing that I wanted to talk about on a more kind of negative that well, it's realistic space with the book. And one thing that you talked about quite a bit in there is the imbalance that can happen in friendships that we put up with. And I know for me personally, I've had this, especially as even this year my book came out. It did well, podcasts came out. It did well and well by certain metrics. And so I've had people sort of have this idea that, oh, you're doing better than me financially, you're doing better than me. So your life is just perfect or you're really intimidating. And and I just and I think I've definitely probably projected that onto people in the past as well, like, oh, everything looks brilliant for them. And I actually had one friend say to me, I know it's really stupid, but I find myself competing in my head with you and I don't know how to deal with that. I was like, well, I don't feel that way. I don't see us as competition in any way. And so I'm just wondering, it can be really uncomfortable. It can cause friends to distance from one another. But it's a really unspoken part of business friendships. And I'm wondering if you can talk us through how competition or envy or jealousy comes up in friends. And I guess when it actually is a problem versus OK.
Yeah, yeah. That that is a really, really good question. And kudos to your friend who actually came forward and said, I feel jealous of you sometimes and I feel like I'm competing with you to actually tell you that they're feeling that way can be a big jump and a big step.
And I talk about it. I have a whole chapter dedicated to jealousy, envy in the book. And jealousy is a big thing in friendships. And it's so hard to know if a person is actually jealous or if we're really just floating away in a fluffy cloud in our own mind. Assuming that they're jealous. We don't we don't necessarily know when a person is jealous or when a person is not jealous. And you don't want to be one of those people who make claims that are untrue, like you're just jealous of me. Probably we may have had that that person in our life who gets us a little bit when someone does something inappropriate, they say you're just jealous. And that excuses my behaviour. I've done something poor to you, but you're just jealous of me. So it's really important that we're very, very careful about when we say somebody is jealous. It's one of those things you need to stick to the facts. I think so. Firstly, from the person who is doing well and succeeding in life, there is no scene. It's not a bad thing for you to succeed. It's actually a beautiful thing and that's fantastic. And a person can be envious of your success. And envy is not necessarily a bad emotion. It means that they prise and admire what you have achieved and they would like to get that for themselves. I would like to also have that for themselves. Where things go wrong is when I envy slips into malicious envy. And I. Talk about this in the book, the Dutch have these excellent words for malicious and benign, and they so they call benign and the Behney Genden, which are probably butchery, funny genden, which is benign and which means you praise that person. You admire that person. You want to achieve the success that that person has as well. There's also Africanist envy, which is when the movie has malicious intent. So you want to see the other person fail. You want to take actions to kind of harm their chances of success in some way. So it's OK to actually be envious of another person and to want to have what they've achieved. It's only becomes a problem when there's that malicious intent. So I suppose the the short answer is to see the behaviour for what it is. Is this person just expressing that they admire what you're doing and that they want to be in that place, too? Is this person expressing their sensitivities and their vulnerabilities? And they're saying, you know, I'm a little bit insecure when it comes to our finances and I feel insecure when we go out for drinks and I can't afford to pay for rounds. Are they just letting you know their insecurities, which is a great way of communicating, hey, I'm sensitive about this thing and I'm letting you know just in case I had shot or if I left abruptly without explaining. I'm sorry I did that. It just triggered some insecurities within me. And that's awesome. I put on them for everything that that's fantastic. And then you can be more sensitive to that and go, great, OK, well, next time, instead of looking the five star restaurant to celebrate on Friday night, we can go to the pub and have a cheap and cheerful pub bill. So I'm not putting you in that position so I can be sensitive now to your insecurities, which is awesome. That's a very healthy relationship. I can be a bit more sensitive to what I say around you and what I do around you. So I'm not triggering that part of yourself because you've told me you've communicated that to me. But the flip side of that is when I suppose it's a spectrum of appropriate behaviour, isn't it somebody saying, I'm sensitive about these topics that's appropriate, somebody who is passive aggressive, who is rude, who brings you down, who makes malicious or vexatious comments about you to undermine your business or to leave nasty reviews or to doing anything defamatory towards your business or yourself because they're jealous of you? That's not appropriate. That's slipped over into inappropriate behaviour. And we don't need to know that they're jealous to know that that's inappropriate behaviour, just clear-cut, inappropriate behaviour. And then we need to take actions to resolve that inappropriateness. And I talk about that in the book. Don't worry if it's because they're jealous, because they're envious as soon as it slips over inappropriate behaviour, inappropriate behaviour, and the reason doesn't matter. It's inappropriate. And there are steps we can take to deal with that inappropriateness.
So just trust yourself that you are able to recognise when it's inappropriate or when it's benign.
Oh, I love that. Oh, my goodness. All these signs. Listen to you. I agree with you. I think speaking up about it and I'm definitely someone who confronts things and sometimes that some people are not the same personality. And I'm sort of like, I'm not someone to avoid. I'm kind of like, can we get this out? Let's hash this out. Let's go and meet. Let's have a coffee. Let's get it done. And I know definitely some other people are not. And so I'm also wondering, because this is a business podcast, lots of business people listening, do you think that it's healthy to have friends who are running similar businesses to your own? It's one thing that I know for me, it has been hugely beneficial for me. I have friends who have business coaches. I have friends who are in similar sort of world. And I've just found it so useful to be able to be like, oh, my gosh, is this proposal is this what I should charge? What do you think? And so I'm wondering. Yeah, your take on it, because I know it can also be a point of friction.
Yeah, well, look, I think the short answer is that they are going to be people working in your domain and your space, irrespective of whether you're friends with them or not. They're going to be in that space. They're going to exist. And those people can either be an ally, a neutral or an enemy, and you choose what you're going to make of that person. So if you have the physical proximity to somebody who sells or does similar things to you, you can have a relationship in a relationship with them. You can have an ally which how useful would that be? Or you can turn it into an enemy and you don't want to do. That's the one that you don't want to do. You do not want to have competition or direct tension with any other businesses, because that's that's essentially something that's going to give you grief going into the future. You want to have even a neutral relationship with that person or you want to have some kind of advantageous relationship with that person. I know a lot of small business owners in hospitality, for example, who are restauranteurs. They are on the same street as one another, but they'll support each other. When somebody runs out of something, they know they can go to that person and they can get extra bags or extra whatever the item is. And you've got to keep in mind, if I support this other person, the day that I need support means that that person will more than likely be there for me as. So we have a reciprocal relationship going on here.
I myself have colleagues in a state with neuropsychology who run a neuropsych business as well. We both run neuropsych businesses, but we're able to do supervision together and get really, really valuable experience from one another. And I suppose it kind of it's moving out of the scarcity mindset, which is that there's not enough business to go around. Like if you believe there's not enough business to go around, then you're in a mindset and you're going to be fearful and adversarial towards other business people because you're worried that they're going to get the business and you're not going to get the business. So I guess it comes down to a bit of internal reflection. What do you feel like your demographic that you're selling to is in terms of abundance? Do you feel like there's a scarcity mindset? Why do you feel that there's not that much business to go around? And is that actually an accurate perception of the demographic that you're selling to? Are you are you in your own head a little bit and you worry about things that don't exist? We need to get a bit real with if we need to, we need to look in the mirror. We are all going about things that don't exist. And I'm shooting myself in the foot by not having this person as a potential ally, as you say. Can you check over my invoices for me? Can I see what invoicing systems you use? Can you have a look over my proposal for me? Can we do some supervision together? Can we do some mentoring together?
That is an amazing opportunity that could actually elevate your business rather than bring it down. So I guess the question is, is the threat real or is it in your head? If it's a real threat, then yes, that's a nuance situation where you need to carefully consider what you're going to give to a relationship and be careful and be mindful about your own intellectual property. Okay, that's very important and that's prudent and wise. If that's in your own head, then you need to be aware of that and you need to think about the long term gain and not the short term gain. So if they're having a rainy day in a bad day, they need some help. If you help them today, then they may be able to help you into the future. And those alliances and that network can be worth its weight in gold.
Totally. Oh, gosh, I love that. I actually run great coaching programmes and quite often we'll have two or three people that do the exact same job in there and sometimes even in the same city. And I think it's fantastic to see them be like, you know, let me show you my process. So let me see. Yeah, yeah. And it's totally that coming together of two minds versus recompetition. So we should actually own your own value as well.
Like you're not the same. You maybe you sell the same thing or maybe you saw a similar thing, but you're not actually the same. You're very different and you need to know your own value and what you bring to the table because it's different to what they bring to the table. And you can honour and respect what they have that's unique to them and also know in yourself that you've got something good to totally, totally.
I actually also coach some business coaches and I've had other friends say, oh, you know, do you think that's wise? And I'm like, yeah, like we're totally different people. And like this something someone will get from me that they won't get from that person. But I totally agree on that. And so I know at the moment it's the start of the new year and people are thinking about the business plans and marketing ideas. And how important do you think it is for small business owners who might be listening to also consider going into a new year? Who am I surrounding myself with? And also, I guess, what could they do or do you have any tips that if they're kind of thinking and planning of listening to this and they're like, OK, I don't want these people in my life anymore, or particularly this one friend, because I can't say that they've supported me or they're always backing out my business or making passive aggressive things or kind of maybe saying, oh, it's not a real business or these really unsupportive friends. How should people go about like, I guess your book is called How to Break Up with Friends. So they just break up with the cats at work?
Well, look, I always say don't do anything in the heat of the moment, right, for the whole cocktail down at the Christmas party. And father has just made some cheap shot about the quality of the material that you use in your business. That is probably not the time to break up with him. Don't do anything in the heat of the moment. So you sort of use the word planning before planning for the new year, planning, planning, planning. It's all about carefully considering what your what your steps are going to be. And that's why a big part of the book is going through, evaluating the behaviour, figuring out what exactly is the behaviour, the questionable behaviour that that is a problem for you and communicating that behaviour, giving them a time frame to change and also then navigating through.
OK, I've I've realised this isn't changing and this person is detrimental to me. And I am no longer in a place where I'm going to give them my time, money and effort. And sometimes that involves a very explicit conversation and sometimes that can just involve readjusting your effort levels and no longer putting in the time, money and effort that you previously did. Both of those options are fine, really. Individual decision about how you're going to how are you going to operate, I suppose the. Take-Home message is that you do all things with the word integrity in the back of your head. So if you operate with integrity, whether you read the book or you don't read the book, whether you follow the steps and use the scripts that I provide in the book, whatever you end up doing, keep in the back of your head the word integrity. So if I walk down the street and see this person one day, or if I go to a function and they're at the function, or if I have a job interview and they happen to be on the panel of my job interview or whatever I said, whatever behaviour I engaged in, whatever words that came out of my lips, they were with grace and integrity. And I know that if I encounter this person again, that I know that I've conducted myself in a manner that means I can hold my head up high and that I didn't do anything inappropriate or wrong to this person, then you're going to be OK.
Have you how have you proceed? You're going to be OK. It's important not to get pulled down into mud slinging matches and airing dirty laundry and tit for tat. So I guess it is a little bit like you mentioned or crappy partners in the start in relationships with bad partners. It's a little bit like if you think back on those days when you had a crappy partner and you try to break up with them over and over and over, and you never quite managed to break up with them because they kept having conversations that you did this and I did that. But I can change. And you have a conversation about all the things they did and the nitty gritty minutia, the micro details. When you did this, you didn't come to these new cancelled last minute on.
And you're all the reasons why I want to break up with you and that in that conversation and ends up with set in mud being flung, people saying things that can be hurtful. It's not about doing that. It's about the macro. It's about stepping back and just saying the facts, which is I am no longer in a position where I can continue to give this relationship the time and energy that it requires because of my mental health. I cannot do this anymore. I wish you all the best for the future. And it's not about you going into detail about you did this man, you did this to me and you did this to me.
And that's why I'm breaking up with you as a friend, because it's not about going into those details and it's not about airing your grievances. It's actually just about telling them and communicating that you've made a decision. And they don't need to know all of the extra details that led you to that decision. And that's the difference between the conversation when we actually broke up with the boyfriend versus all the other preceding conversations where we went in a circle and we had a fight, we got back together, then we had another fight and we broke up.
And then we got back together and around around around we go, you know what I mean?
Yes, but do you have any advice? I guess then and of course, people should go and read your book. There's so much gold in this. This is just like the surface of it. But do you have advice then for maybe somebody who is on the receiving end of that? Or do you think also that if people break up, they can get obviously in romantic relationships with time? But do you think friendships can then develop in some way that they can come back together?
Yeah, nail on the head in terms of the science of friendship over a life course. So I use the word didactic energy. So that just means your identity and the energy that goes into your identity. So when you're Yuni, you've got a lot of friends. Your energy goes into being that you have Dockery's at the pub, you talk about how hard the assignment was and then your life changes and you shift into different identities. So perhaps being a wife, partner, a mother, a husband business or a retiree, and you're going to shift over time. And we know that our circles come in and out with different friendship groups over their shifts. And as energy goes into creating a new identity for ourselves, because it takes a lot of energy to be a new mom or new parents or a business owner, and your brain is only really equipped to handle a certain number of friends at any given time. We talk about the Dunbar number in the book, which is how many very, very close relationships the brain can actually handle because you only have so much time in your day and so much energy to give to those complex relationships. And people always are aghast when I say the leading theorists say your brain can only really handle five very, very, very, very, very close relationships at any one time. And these are the people you're interacting with on a daily basis. So it's OK to acknowledge that sometimes in your life you're going to gravitate towards certain people who are going through the same stage of life that you are like parenthood. And some times in your life you're going to gravitate away from people who are not at the same place that you are. And that's OK. There's nothing wrong with that. It doesn't mean that they're about person or you're a bad person. It's just the shifts in your life and the natural ebbs and flows of friendship. And it's perfectly normal to have that. I would say that you can operate in a manner that, yes, sometimes you will reconnect with friends after many, many years and both of you have changed and you'll make friends again. And that's OK, too. I suppose the take home message is that people worry so much about how many friends they have. Do I have enough friends? I've got an event coming up and oh my God, the guest list is a nightmare and you get a bit scared and you're like, who's going to show off? I'm terrified that no one's going to show up. And suppose if a. One bit of advice I can give that the science tells us all of these amazing health benefits that I've discussed about friendships, they came down to the quality of the friendship, not the quantity of friends. So it wasn't about how many friends you had. It was just about the quality of the friendship. So you can get really amazing health benefits and really amazing support from even just having one friend or two friends. A few very, very good friends are worth so much more than having heaps and heaps of mediocre friends. And it's OK to own and accept that.
I'm trying to think if I could fight with it, I feel like I know. Totally, really. Elsas Thank you. I reckon this is just. Well, I know this is just going to help so many people that are listening, especially at this time of year when people are reflecting and especially the type of year that we've all had.
One thing I wanted to ask about the book was a lot of people want to write a book. Obviously, I also wanted to write a book about the book really well for what I wanted to do. I would love to know, like, how has the book changed your business? And obviously it's only been out for a couple of months. But what advice would you give to others who are looking to write a book as part of their business offering?
That's a great question. It's been tricky for me because I am a neuropsychologist.
I have a lot of governing bodies and we have a lot of rules. And it can be really intimidating if you work in the health space to be able to have your own individual voice and to step forward and have an opinion about something. And that that can be scary because I suppose when you open yourself up to sharing your opinion, you're also opening yourself up to the potential criticisms of your peers who disagree with your opinion. And that that was scary for me at times.
I had I had periods where I was worried that, you know, potentially other people in my field might not like what I was saying. Or I suppose you get a bit of imposter syndrome, like who might be saying these things? My advice is to try to I don't want to be cliche, but you need to you need to value yourself that you need to be able to think through what am I bringing to the table and know that this is I have a message that's worth hearing and you need to believe in that message. And that is a cliche for a reason, because it is going to take time and energy and money to push it out. It really does take people. I didn't I didn't know how much it cost to publish a book, and I didn't know that. That also involves social media and that also involves publicity and that also involves all of these other things that you do in adjunct to putting the book out. So you really need to believe in it because you need that energy. You need that fire in you to help on the days where there are the doubters and there are the people who will come up, people people love you and they want to help you. And people are risk averse. People are so risk averse, which is why very few people go out of business and go out on their own. And so you will have friends and you will have colleagues and you will have family members who will say, oh, I don't think that's the best idea. Like, are you sure? You know, people say you don't make money from books and what's the fastest way to lose money? Write a book. You will have those people say that to you because they love you and they want to protect you. And they've heard the horror stories and they've heard the stereotypes and they they don't want you to be affected by that. So, I mean, I suppose if your if you're strong enough in your conviction and your belief that, you know, what you have to share is worth hearing and that there is a market for it and people are going to want to hear this. Believe in that. Right yourself a mission statement, right yourself, the letter or whatever it is that you need to keep going back to to remind yourself in those dark days when someone's just giving you a piece of unsolicited advice that you're doomed to failure, that you can go back to that letter and reread it and go, oh, no, I know that what I'm doing is needed. I know that there is a market for this. I know that what I am offering is unique. And I know in my heart that this is a good idea. And following that intuition that what you're doing is worthwhile, because at the end of the day, if you don't believe in it and this is this is so true, like if you don't believe in what you're spruiking, no one else is going to believe in it. And I mean, I suppose we can get down to quantum physics and the laws of attraction. What you're vibrating and you can go to send a book on all of the impacts that the energy you're putting out and bring it back to you if you really, really have to believe in this thing. Right, you've got to believe in it. And if you have that conviction, you'll get to it. Maybe you get through it, whatever, whatever is, you're going to get through it.
I love that attitude and I totally agree. And I was totally there with my book as well, like, oh my God, what am I doing? Especially in the middle of a pandemic?
And this notion of I mean, you've just given so many great pieces of advice. Do you have any like you mentioned, Joe Dispenza, but do you have any kind of books or tools or platforms or app? So anything that you just can't live without or that's been really helpful for you in your business, this is a good question.
I'm currently doing my own kind of learning of that stuff in that space. So I've recently found work up, which is a really great system of finding talent that is affordable to help you to sort out your social media and your business websites and things like that. So obviously, that's really important and helpful to know your scope and what's outside of your scope and just get other people to do the work for you. And you can pay 20 bucks for them to do an hour, something that would have taken you five hours. I will also mention this amazing business, Chotiner Hennings. So I think knowing when you need a ship and when you need guidance is often important because we don't know what we don't know.
And if I look back and I could do it all again, I probably would have gotten in touch with people like yourself and some of those social media strategists way, way, way earlier in the piece. But of course, the benefit of experience and wisdom, we all we all know after the fact and we can do it for the next one. Right. I myself have my own app that I use, which is my app, the Asset Itself app, which has all my meditations on learning itself and tapping into your own intuition. So me being able to follow my own intuition when I know something is right and when I know something is wrong, I often find I had that little inkling beforehand, like all this doesn't feel right. And I went ahead with it anyway and I regretted it. And I was like, not that didn't work out. That was wrong. And we should listen to that intuitive lead that I had earlier. So I've been trying really hard to tap into my own gut instincts about when I feel like this is right. This is the right way to go. I've got a good feeling about this versus when I'm getting these subtle signs that we can't put our finger on that something's not right and this is not working. And then we plough them within anyway and it ends up falling in a heap. So I'm trying to learn to spot those warning signs earlier in the process rather than before. It snowballs to really hit the fan.
And I think that's like a perfect summary of a lot of what you talk about in the book as well. It's like you trust yourself, value yourself, because it's the same with friendships. And you talk about this a lot. And I want to give away all of the book. But you talk about someone's text messaging you or calling you and you don't want to pick up the phone. It's because you inwardly and I feel like it's the same when it comes to business decisions. Sometimes you just know, like my my hiring this person or, you know, oh gosh, what have I done? I just didn't feel right. So I totally agree with trusting your instinct. What are you most proud of? Obviously. And I've said to you and I'm not just saying this, I really love your book. I think it changed lives. I recommended it to so many people. It really has made me think I mean, I'm forty. It's really made me really think about some of my friendships and some of the imbalances that happen on both sides and also on the good on a positive. It's also made me go, oh, my gosh, there are people in my life who are just brilliant and I need to make more of an effort to be there for them to make time for them. So I could easily say what I think you should be proud of, but what I'm most proud of.
Thank you. Thank you so much. Oh, you're so thirsty. Do you know what my answer is? Actually, probably a little bit less that I expected this, but this covid like I'm I'm getting real with you now. If you're in a real spiritual growth year for me, I'm hitting all the clichéd buzzwords. But they are cliche for a reason.
But I know you're a deep, deep kind of soul work for me that I don't know, just like being more aware of my own, my own energy, my own words that are coming out of my mouth in times of pessimism and optimism and kind of the vibe that I'm the frequency. I'm Babylon. And so I'm I'm actually really quite proud of myself in terms of my own personal. Yes, there has been a business growth and I have been the professional growth and all of that stuff that me as a person, as a person this year has changed me deeply and profoundly. And I am so much more connected and I still have more to learn. Like I'm not saying by any means, I'm spiritual guru in any way.
I just I'm just a lot more connected with myself and realising that there is unseen forces at work that we cannot measure or quantify yet, but do make an impact on your success and the receipt of support and help that you're projecting out to the universe. And I went into this kind of with the mentality of this is Hodd and this is scary and I can't do this on my own and shifted that mentality to everybody helps me. Everybody is supporting me. I'm receiving this abundance of, you know, perfect wealth and perfect health and perfect happiness. And I sound like I'm like a cliched guru, airy fairy nana. But honestly, it has made such a difference. Like I feel in my heart so much happiness. I have attracted all of these incredible people that have just come into my life that are just so supportive and so kind. And this new friendship group of amazing, incredible people that have just come into my life. And I really do feel like that shift happens when I change the way I was speaking and I change the way that I was talking about myself and I change the way that I was talking about my business and my life. And that change happened because of me being more aware of my own, my own soul and spirit, my own energy. And that has had that is leaked into every other aspect of my life, especially business. So I don't want to get all on on you. But, man, that I'm super, super proud of that. And I am so, so, so glad that I've had these kind of awakening. So I myself sick right now.
Love, love, love, everything. And this totally applies for that. And I one hundred percent. And with you I feel very much I've gone on a similar path this year and I also feel like this time last year I lost my dad and it was a very crazy experience. Like I didn't know it was very unexpected. Got there in the afternoon and he passed that night. But I think sitting with him, being there when somebody passes, you do go, OK, what's left? And the only thing that you leave in your life is like, yep, you can make all the money, you can get all the business. But really, it's like good friendships, it's love, it's the energy that you put out. It's like what impact, what legacy to do on. How do people feel about you when you've gone like that is what's most important. So totally hear you on that whole front. And I think if more people did did the work around spirituality and why am I here and all that energy stuff, we would be in a better place in the world in general. So. Well, yeah, it certainly I know that people will be listening to this and being like, oh my gosh, I have to get home.
And she's incredible. And so how do people, like, connect with you and what's next? Also, can people begin to see one on one, if that's.
That's a good question. So there's two parts to me. I'm like a multidimensional person.
So I'm I've got my business side, which is my the media presence that I got my dot com website, got all the media into you. Instagram, DM me, by all means, please dm me. I love hearing about people's friendship experiences and transitioning to better quality friends and realisations. I always want to hear about that. I love getting that feedback, so please don't hesitate to send me again. And you're like noble side. That's it then. My neuropsych business, which is my opposite Weisberg's my other, my other profession is that's all about sort of I suppose diagnosis therapy going through. What is your IQ, what is, what are your cognitive strengths and how can you build on those and really get the elite advantage on your mental health. And that is my my practise which is called neuropsych which I run down. Come on in to be amazing.
Amazing. Thank you so much. And of course people can go and buy a book. How to break up. Yeah. And that is it, just dot com and of course, we'll put that in the show notes.
Yeah, yeah. Demián WB Topia Book Depository. It's on Audible. I'm a massive fan of audible audio books like I Can't Get Enough of Them, so I love the audio book. My audio book doesn't have the footnotes in it. So I mean, I like I put a lot of science in those footnotes and I think they're really juicy. So if you can get your hands on a physical copy. Yeah.
Because they like me both copy and listen to the audio book because it's just fascinating. I can't wait to go through and mark up all the pages and I think it's really brilliant. Thank you so much for coming on to the podcast Wisdom and for writing this book.
It's been an absolute pleasure and thank you for doing what you do and putting out the amazing advice that you put out, because it really is such a blessing to get this quality and this high level of expertise. And you don't charge for it. You just so generous with your time and expertise to let other people hear these amazing podcasts. Thank you so much.
You're so welcome. Thanks.
Bye bye.
How fascinating is that? I just love the whole neuroscience behind friendships and relationships, and I just think it's absolutely super insightful what Hannah Korrel has to teach us all, especially small business owners, because I know I speak for a lot of people that they'll go through all of the different emotions when it comes to their friendships and how to navigate and nurture those friendships while also being able to run a successful business.
So I'd love to know what you most took out of our chat today. Please don't be shy. You can contact me any time on Instagram at @mydailybusinesscoach or reach out by email hello@mydailybusinesscoach.com, of course, you can also get in touch with Hannah directly and her Instagram is no bull sick as in no. And then b l l p. S y hate. You can also find out more about her and find her book over at hannahkorrel.com.
And of course we'll link to those in the show notes. But yeah, I would love to know what you took away from that. For me, there was two big things that stood out. The first is the health ramifications of bad friendships or toxic friendships or friendships where you don't feel that it's an equal partnership or that you don't feel that you know, anything that you're giving is being reciprocated. I found it fascinating to think about what that actually does on a cellular level and what it can do to your physiology and your physical health. It's really, really fascinating. So I really took that away.
The second thing that I know that you talked about quite a lot is valuing yourself and putting yourself first and also really thinking about what you will and won't put up with. I think and we talked about this, of course, in the chat, but we do often think of that when it comes to romantic relationships or from our spouse or our significant other or even from our children. You know, we teach kind of boundaries and discipline, but we don't necessarily at all think about our friendships in that way and think, are they serving us?
And also, what kind of friend are we being? Definitely, after reading that, I assist some of my good friendships and I was like in some of them, definitely I felt things were unequal. But in others I had to admit that I wasn't showing up for these people in the way that I should. And so that's definitely something that I'm going to be working on and putting effort into in 2021. So like I said, don't be shy.
Feel free to reach out to Hannah or myself or both of us. Definitely go and check out that book, How to break up with Friends. You can do that again at hannahkorrel.com or you can find it in all major bookstores. So as always, the show notes can be found over at mydailybusinesscoach.com/podcast/66. This is episode 66. All right. That's it for me for now. Make sure you subscribe so you don't miss out on any of these other insightful podcast episodes that are coming up. I'll see you in the next episode. Bye.
Thanks for listening to My Daily Business Coach podcast. If you want to get in touch, you can do that at mydailybusinesscoach.com or hit me up on Instagram at @mydailybusinesscoach.
